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User Topic: Long Term Affairs X I I I
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, October 3rd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

that finding time for yourself, doing things YOU love, putting everyone and everything else aside, really does help.
I know I would be triggering and then furious because I was carrying the whole load again. Pick one. Trigger or load-carrying. Deal with one big thing at at time.

That makes alot of sense, thanks Weepy.
One of my character faults, is that I go abit flakey when I feel overwhelmed, or am even threatened with being overwhelmed. I LOVE some kind of order and routine, and I get badly thrown off track when my life goes awry.
I am not one for rolling with the punches or being spontaneous. I HATE surprises. And even though I suspected it was a matter of time till his office tag onto him, it still caught me unawares. I am being pouty and sulky.
Dammit.just 2 weeks ago, I was ready to chuck it all in. Yes, I was drugged to my eyeballs, and i am sure all that gunk must be out of me by now. I am just feeling so "vulnerable" and "weak". And I just dont want any kind of change right not. I want to be on solid feet again, and I know I am not yet. So this just sucks. I am not ready to be in charge yet. I told him I need more time.And he just got annoyed with me.

I no longer want to play the tough girl, and keep at it till I collapse...the risks are too high. I KNOW I am not ready. I KNOW I am still very shaken.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
hurt789
♀ Member
Member # 20937
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, October 3rd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LH,

Sorry about the H having to go in for days to work. I know that must suck! Can anyone watch the kids and you go with him, maybe get a place to stay while he is working, somewhere with a spa!!

So how do you know he showed her his love? In what way

It was always wanting to be with he, even when I was around. He would always compliment her even in front of me (he would say it was because he felt sorry for her because she had a bad marriage with his best friend **of course she did, you were having an A with her!!**) Talking and texting to each other everyday for years. Not wanting to do things with our family unless they could go to, taking her away for the weekend (they went once a year) buying her gifts,jewerly (He didnt buy me any..he said thay jewerly was silly, you couldnt do anything with it, or make stuff with it..it was a waste of money)He would give her money to buy clothes or go out to lunch with her mom, buying things for her kids (if he bought our daughter something, they would have to get one to-but they were our godchildren)just things that would show he wanted to take care of her. I hate that part of the A more than the sex!! He told her that when she seperated from her H that he would be there for her, not leave me, but still be there.(they seperated for a week or two, then she got arrested at her daughters school, long story, then stayed in a stress center for a month, he moved back home when this happened) He would tell her he loved her. He wont tell me now, cause I have asked, what kind of other things he would tell her to make her feel like he loved her, but he doesnt want to tell me. I dont know if I really want to know..He has a Harley, and they would go riding alot. He would tell her that he bought the bike for them, and that its just not the same with out her riding with him. (I got this from her H - my H says he never told her he bought the bike for them, it was for us and he may have said it wasnt the same riding with out her, cause it wasnt...her giant boobs and belly would make him set up and not lean back when he rides...he says that is what he meant, but he knew she would take it as a loving gesture. (its all bullshit)

the day will come when you will be wondering whether YOU made the right choice in staying.

Sometime I think that day is here, but I know its too soon to make choices right now. He says he is scared that I will hurt him like he has hurt me by leaving him. He said that would do it!

We keep our talks short now, the last few havent even lasted an hour. I dont really have that many questions anymore. There are things that pop up about the two of them i think about, but most of its meaningless stuff that after i think about it, i dont really feel like i need to know. does that make sense?!?!
I have been mostly talking about our marriage. we had problems, but he admits that the problems stemed from the A. He said when the A started our marriage was wonderful, I was wonderful, he thought that I loved him so much that he could get away with anything...I guess he needs to work on figuring out how he could think that, and what made it ok for not to think he loved me as much to be able to do this.

Golf got cancelled, he still had to work..we are going in the AM.


BS 40
WS 43
MARRIED 20
TOGATHER 22
1 PERFECT DAUGHTER
DDAY7/13/08
LTA - ALWAYS


Posts: 240 | Registered: Sep 2008
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, October 3rd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hurt, I just want to tell you my H was the meanest SOB to me, our kids, his family during his A. I suspected too and he did tell me he would start fights, push me away, find things to do for other people anything from being close to us. IC says it was his guilt and shame. Even before she told us that though he said he had a hard enough time looking at himself in the mirror, he couldn't look me in the eye. He had to make me the bad guy. Part of it was unconscious, just self-preservation, part of it was calculated.

As an exercise, I wrote down every single lie, every single hurt, every stupid move, everything he did to avoid me or humilate me. It took up 7 pages, both sides, single spaced. My idea was to read each one to him and have him say "I'm sorry". I hoped to get some kind of tears or meltdown of sudden awareness from him. Then I realized all it would do is make him madder and he'd get defensive. Like if I said "for the Christmas you gave me cash because you didn't have "time" to shop". That sucked. I was humiliated. But I don't know if he saw it as being generous or a snippy "you never like what I get you and you won't tell me your size" excuse. Just like last night bringing home seafood pasta for me... allergic and Atkins. Made me feel like those Christmases... "Does my H not know me at ALL?" I was an avid reader, he could have picked up a book gift card. I'd been bugging him about getting my car detailed.. a gift certificate to a car wash would have even been thoughtful.

The year he "came back"... I got my first jewelry in 15 years, a new camera, books, a nice silk robe. Now THAT's what a husband looks like. He even spent hundreds on each kid. They were lucky to get a box of crayons from him. I can't count how many Christmases he was going to "cancel" because the kids were SO BAD. He didn't even know they were there, how did he know they were bad? They weren't, he was and he even made them into little spoiled rotten bastards in his mind.

I can't even fathom what it would be like to look at my kids and wonder how they got to be teenagers and you knew nothing about them. Can you imagine? DD joined the drill team at the new school a year before we moved officially. He didn't even know. Then he thought it was stupid and he'd get pissed when I drove her to practice! Of course by then it was a wonder we weren't divorced. I barely spoke to him and didn't care what he thought and NEVER did anything he told me to do. He saw it as defiant, I saw it as self-preservation. If I did what he "told" me to do, I'd have had to split into three people. And what's really f'd up is that he didn't want me around anyway.

There's no use trying to make sense out of nonsense.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 9:19 PM, October 3rd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know it's probably too late for anybody to be around, but I need to pose a question.

I've been sinking somewhat for a couple of days now. And it's the same old same old that I have struggled with for a long time now.

That is, that H has never told me the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And that to stay within the M that I have to accept that. This makes me feel like he is disrespecting me just the same as if he were still in the A. I push and push, but to no avail.

My question. Sometimes I wonder if my pushing is nothing more than a control issue. Do you think that it is possible that I just want to MAKE him do what I want. I wonder if I am being reasonable or just a controlling bitch.

True enough I've lived a much better married life than my H has managed to do. But on the other hand I'm not perfect.

I just want to feel like he has finally broken down that wall that is between me and their A. And I have never felt like that. He has never broken down and told me things that I didn't find out on my own.

I've been off all meds for quite some time now. But yesterday and today I have had to take a xanax to calm myself down. When we get into this struggle it makes me (not suicidal but somewhat wishing for death) hence the xanax.

I also feel like when will this ever end for me. I am now over 2 1/2 years out from Dday. Granted this summer has been much much better for me. But I was able to stay away from home for the most part. Now that school is back in, I'm back at home. I did notice over the summer that the very day that I was to leave and head back home I would feel myself start to get depressed. I did much better when I was staying away.

Do you ever get frustrated with yourself for not being whole again yet?

And as for the discussion about wanting to make ow suffer. Oh boy oh boy could I get into an ow rant with that one. But I'm not.

FSA
Foolishly Sliding down Again


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 9:56 PM, October 3rd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh and something else that may be playing a part in my slipping.

Some of you may remember that my DD married last Nov. The boy that she M had already cheated on her twice that we knew of. H and I had tried to talk her out of staying with him. But some months later she called and said that they were to be married. Well, now she is facing D. Yes, he did it yet once again. And it was a double betrayal for her, it was with one of her close friends. DD is handling it real well. She had moved in with her GF when things starting going downhill with her H. Well last Sun she found out that her GF that she had moved in with was the ow. She has not spoken to either one of them since then. They both keep trying to contact her, but she totally ignores their calls. Good for her!!!!!

I hate to see her going through this shit. I have to fight myself to keep from contacting her H. But I've decided not to give him the satisfaction. He's not worth my time.

But this could be playing a part in my recent down mood. And it has also triggered me into throwing some one liners towards my H. With this happening to his DD he has some things to say about it, which in turn opens the door for me to point out his dumb ass faults. And I must say that I've done a pretty good job at that. Oh well, he asked for it. Does that sound like the controlling bitch I mentioned earlier?

Guess I just needed to get on here and get some stuff off my chest. Even if I am talking to myself. And the xanax has me somewhat light headed, being as I haven't been taking them for a while.

I'd love to pull a good drunk about now!!! Anybody up for it?

FSA
Feeling Slightly Alcoholic


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
shenpa1
♀ Member
Member # 11710
Default  Posted: 10:26 PM, October 3rd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Affairs are built on so many lies I think it's hard for all parties to know exactly what the truth is.

My H and I have been digging out from his sexual addiction for over 3 years now and what I have discovered is that the truth constantly changes.

I pressed, hammered, and demanded the truth. In the beginning I got lies mixed with bits and pieces of the truth. H was told by his friends and SLAA group that it was in the best interests of the marriage not to tell the truth because the truth was much to painful to hear and would probably cause more harm than good.

In general, I think it's important to know the motivation behind the truth you are looking for or expecting to hear from your husband. For example, I was clear that asking questions regarding the sexual acts my husband had with OW would really not serve my healing process. Knowing how many times he had sex, when, where,the conversations,presents and other intimate details of the relationship really served no purpose. The knowledge I already had was more than I could possibly bare.Knowing intimate details really served no purpose other than to add to my suffering, confusion and general state of despair.

I guess what I'm trying to say is ask yourself first what truth it is you are looking for. Ask yourself if the knowledge of that truth will help you heal and move the relationship forward or will knowledge of that truth
serve to deepen your despair and shame your husband.

Know what you are seeking and what you are asking and why. Know that you are emotionally ready to deal with what you might hear. there were times I asked my H the truth and what he shared with me was so painful that I had to ask him to stop. When you ask
for the truth and he gives it
then let him speak. Don't judge, comment or shame him.
Thank him for sharing the truth (or the truth as he knows it)and leave it at that. Walk away with the information he gave you try and process and sort it out to see if it makes sense.

I asked the same questions, hundreds of times over. Each time I would become less defensive and just let my H speak. The more I listened and the less I made him feel like shit the more he began to open up. There were times I wanted to rip his face off when he was speaking, but at those moments I would tell him I needed a break. I'd walk away for 10-15 minutes, calm down, and come back to the conversation if I could.
And, often times I couldn't.

Create a safe zone where he can be heard and just listened to. Much of what he says will probably sound crazy because it is. He inturn, must do the same for you. Allow you to speak your truth without judgement.
Amazing things happen in conversation once you let go of beign defensive and judgemental.

Shen


Me BS-49
H- WH-46
D-day #1 05/05 H Admits to PA #1
D-day #2 10/06 PA#2,3,4,&5 (ouch!)
Children: 3
Married 12 years



Posts: 396 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: CA
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, October 3rd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shen thanks.

I think that I don't want so much to hear the details as much as I want him to open up to me about the A.

When he ask what I want, all that I can tell him is that when he finally opens up to me from the heart that then and only then will I know. KWIM?

Because of that, I wonder if it is somewhat of a control issue for me. I don't really want to hear more ugly details, I just want him to be honest with me because that is what I need.

All I've ever gotten out of him from a 10 year LTA, is that it was just a piece of ass. I have a hard time getting any kind of understanding of what they were????? And I know in my heart of hearts that he still holds back from me. Which makes me feel like we will never have a chance at a true relationship, starting with a clean slate, as long as he holds things back. Maybe I just want to feel like he can finally after 22 years of marriage, let me see the real man that I am married to.

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((hurt))))

It was always wanting to be with he, even when I was around.

I am sorry if retelling all that hurt you.
Looks like your H belongs to the group of Grade A LTA Asshats! I will tell my H to shuffle a bit to make some place.

Many of our WSs were such jerks during the LTA. H's LTA#1 started about 2 years before our M, so they had a headstart as a "couple" ...and they were BOTH pretty mean to me as a young naive bride.
For eg. she manipulated herself into being my friend, she would know I was cooking a special dinner and then she would call H at work and tell him that he would have to come to hers for dinner; then he would call me and tell me, and I would be so upset but we went anyway, and not only would he spend the evening praising her cooking etc, they would flirt in front of her H and me. Her H was oblivious; he was too busy tending to their children, and I would just sit there, embarassed and fuming.

Ah, the tales I could tell you...

Later, not now Hurt, when you are in IC and have passed the 1 year mark, you are going to look into what made you accept that behaviour from him.

For now, do what weepy did, write down every bad memory. Allow yourself to remember and grieve those times. Man, they sting, some of them more than others.And you will cry and rant and wail against the whole injustice of this. As you should.

Big warm hugs, Hurt.

****

(((((FSA)))))

Well, now she is facing D. Yes, he did it yet once again. And it was a double betrayal for her, it was with one of her close friends

Your dear dear girl.
I bet you wish you hadnt seen this one coming.

Like you said, FSA, this is a HUGE trigger for you.And your H.

I know you said you dont want to talk to your SIL, but remember that chat you both had with him before the wedding? If I were you, I would let him know that you are both very disappointed in him. And that he is out.

I hope your DD sticks to the D plans and not back down.
And I hope dearly that, despite your struggle right now, you are both able to be there for her. Remember our time just after dday? And how we wished we could have been loved and nourished and nurtured by a loved one? Nows that time for her, FSA. You are a great mom, and I know that you will come through for her.

I don't really want to hear more ugly details, I just want him to be honest with me because that is what I need.
Maybe I just want to feel like he can finally after 22 years of marriage, let me see the real man that I am married to.

FSA, do you think you want to know the why of what he did, which is why "a piece of ass" isnt enough?
Like maybe he had FOO issues, or he was looking for external validation or he had a God complex?
Do you think that without him digging deep, that he is capable of figuring it by himself, without the help of an IC?

I am so so sorry you are sliding down, my friend.

Maybe your H needs to do some hard work now, at looking into himself and find why he was able to do what he did. If it was just a fuck,(like my H said about OW#1), then he could have gotten that from any prostitute.
And maybe until you see him along that route towards himself, then maybe you can start seeing him for who he is.KWIM?

Just thinking of your SIL and DD's BF..
Where is that baseball bat when we need it?
So where is your DD now?
Big hugs to her, ok.
Last thing, FSA.
This must be awful for your H as well. I hope he comes through for your DD and does not hide. MAybe that would help your relationship too.

Buckets of white light to you and DD.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sometimes I wonder if my pushing is nothing more than a control issue. Do you think that it is possible that I just want to MAKE him do what I want. I wonder if I am being reasonable or just a controlling bitch.

Yes, I feel that way and part if it is true. I think if I can push and force him to look at things the way I look at them, then he'd understand and suddenly be at the point of suicide because of what kind of bastard he'd been. Then I could pull him to me and say "no, I just wanted you to know what you'd done and accept it and feel remorse for it and show it in the way I needed you to show it." And I think that's it. It bugs the hell out of me that he can just go on living his life like nothing has changed. But I don't know what it looks like to him from the inside out. what is HE seeing? feeling? knowing?

Like you I know nothing really. Just that there were dozens of prostitutes, maybe 2 dozen maybe 5 or more. The money's gone, can't get that back. I can't erase his memory, just wipe out all those encounters and I can't change how he feels about his OW.

I think I've come to accept that I am going to stay. Things are different. Maybe not perfect and far from intimate. 3 years out and I still have those icy hands gripping my heart at times, cutting off my breath, sending hot tears down my cheeks. And no one to turn to for an understanding hug.

FSA, my heart goes out to your DD. And like there are no words to comfort a grieving widow or parent, saying "thank God she's young and can start over" sounds trite and hollow. Just open your arms to her, no "i told you so's" and let her lean on you. Like with this sisterhood, you two will always have that bond now.

I don't really want to hear more ugly details, I just want him to be honest with me because that is what I need.
Maybe I just want to feel like he can finally after 22 years of marriage, let me see the real man that I am married to.

And maybe he doesn't want to show you that because he feels unworthy, dirty. Why should he risk showing you something that's going to drive you away? It's not in HIS best interest. And I've learned that selfishness and self-preservation instincts are so strong in these guys, it takes a real hurculean effort for them to risk it. They risked it before, but the "reality" wasn't there. Sure, we said we'd leave them if they ever cheated, but now the KNOW we'll leave them and can at any minute they tell us the one thing that is too much for us to handle. They just don't know what that is... that he told her he loved her? . .mine denies that but his GF told him. That they had unprotected sex? .. again he's never admitted it, but his GF described it in detail, right down to the way he tasted in her mouth. But does he admit that and lose me? or deny it and hope that I just figure it out on my own. Because if he SAYS it, he's admitting that one too many betrayals.

All I've ever gotten out of him from a 10 year LTA, is that it was just a piece of ass.

And that's what I heard too. But even that's too much for me. HE can't win. Just a piece of ass, or the lost love of his life. Either way, it's too much for me to accept that he would do that. That I would stay married to a man who would do that. Those are the hardest days.

Amazing things happen in conversation once you let go of beign defensive and judgemental

shen, this is my H's life, being defensive and judgemental. I can't tell you how many times I've medicated myself into a stupor just to ask a few questions and wind up in tears as he tears into me, about my motivations and then watch him shut down a refuse to talk because all he's doing is "giving me ammunition to use against him later." Defensive, paranoid and jugemental. That's why I live with not knowing. AFter 3 years of MC, 2 of IC and a year of questions every single day, he's not going to say any more or if he does he's going to make me wish I didn't ask.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"no, I just wanted you to know what you'd done and accept it and feel remorse for it and show it in the way I needed you to show it."
But I don't know what it looks like to him from the inside out. what is HE seeing? feeling? knowing?

Weepy, you nailed this for me-- H does have remorse and guilt and depression about the whole situation, and I still need more convincing of it sometimes. And H has told me over and over about how it looks to him from the inside--and it's not pretty, no wonder he's depressed--(3 years out and counting)-- maybe I can't believe he really feels as bad as he says--or maybe I can, but it's bound up with the idea of him doing it at all in the first place, which is an unchangeable fact.

I can't erase his memory, just wipe out all those encounters and I can't change how he feels about his OW.

This is the bitch, isn't it.

I think I've come to accept that I am going to stay. Things are different. Maybe not perfect and far from intimate. 3 years out and I still have those icy hands gripping my heart at times, cutting off my breath, sending hot tears down my cheeks. And no one to turn to for an understanding hug.

Amen. We're actually are more intimate than we were for a long time both right before the during the LTA--that is if I know what intimacy is, really. Just doesn't seem like our lives now, which day to day are pretty good and what I'd thought a regular marriage would be like at this stage, is THAT much different from before--that's what makes me wonder if I really know what intimacy and emotional closeness means-- My own stuff I guess.

We're talking about that in my IC now--I get that intimacy is sharing your lives, sharing your days with each other, partnering to build your lives together, affection, sex, sharing fears and dreams--all the stuff I read about and talk about seems like stuff you do during a marriage, do it differently as the years go by (and after 30 years, it is different--not the limerence stuff of the beginning of the R, not the totally fatigued times of having young children, not the need to say as much about every topic you've covered already over the years!!)--

I guess I still feel like I could never win in a competition with a newbie R like they had in the LTA, which continued to be more new cuz of the intermittent meetings and secrecy and all that--and despite talking about this with H and MC, it's a hangup I can't get over. Not that H does or says anything to make me feel inadequate, but what he did tell me (after I asked ad nauseum about the A) doesn't help my understanding of why he's not still pining a little underneath. Total projection on my part--as I said, part of my baggage--but I'd still like a H who had complete indifference to OW and all she stood for.

Hard to be that way for either of us I think when we still have that C cuz of OC. Especially for me--

You can always get understanding and a hug from those of us here who are going through it (((((weepy)))))


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
hurt789
♀ Member
Member # 20937
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

THANKS LH,

Didnt get to talk last night, we went out for dinner with our daughter and her new video game. We actually had a great family night togather. This subject was still in the front of my mind though. Played golf this morning. I played ok, pretended the golf balls were either him or her and hit the shit out of them!!

Later, not now Hurt, when you are in IC and have passed the 1 year mark, you are going to look into what made you accept that behaviour from him.

I do need to figure this out. I know part of it was that I tricked myself into not caring. I just lied to myself like he wasI will take Weepy's advice and start writting. I have been journaling a bit, but its mostly questions. Making a list may help it get out of my head too like writting down questions.

Going to try and have a good weekend. I will check in on you later. Thanks again


BS 40
WS 43
MARRIED 20
TOGATHER 22
1 PERFECT DAUGHTER
DDAY7/13/08
LTA - ALWAYS


Posts: 240 | Registered: Sep 2008
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess I still feel like I could never win in a competition with a newbie R like they had in the LTA, which continued to be more new cuz of the intermittent meetings and secrecy and all that--and despite talking about this with H and MC, it's a hangup I can't get over

I hate this aspect too although I struggle with how much of it (the newness) WH & OW had based on the fact that she was living in our home- As horrible as it is- she did have weekends, quiet time, holidays, time with the kids, she had it all with my family.

In relation to this...I've been thinking again about how their relationship was bizarre. Barely any kisses- no passion, no affection really....it just seems bizarre to me although OW#2 told me that it would have been there if WH would have "allowed it" or if she would have initiated it since she is SO incredibly weak & passive I don't think she would even initiate affection.

OKay- Did everyone else's WH's LTA start with EA? WH started with both OW through sex alone. That's what seems strange to me- No lovey dovey conversations to swoon the other person....just an offering of sex that never ended and then OW#2 became like a best friend really.


((HUGS)) Hurt789. I go through times of thinking my WH showed OW#2 tremendous love and then see it from the sexual standpoint and see there really wasn't much of anything. It must be hard to have seen compliments, gifts, priority given to her etc.


I wish there was a more specific "mold" they all fit into so we could just have our magic answers! I was thinking about how WH didn't treat me badly during the A and how that seems to be different than many others. Yes, we grew apart and relate to this:

I have been mostly talking about our marriage. we had problems, but he admits that the problems stemed from the A.

Our MC doesn't seem to get that aspect. He seems to be CONVINCED that we were so DRASTICALY distant at the start of the A and we just weren't. I NEVER EVER would have suspected an A when it started- that what was so shocking about the whole thing- realizing how long it had been going on. Obviously our communication and meeting each others needs were off, but nothing bad, and it really never was bad.


(I want to write more but we're off to a b-day party)



ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

whatnow, if we're talking about his OW... he says it was one meeting of "OMG, you went to school with me" type conversations and a proposition at the end of it. The next time they met, they had sex.

And since his affair period started with just sex (pros), I don't believe the EA took hold until later, and that was a weird kind of desperate need on both sides to make that work.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but what he did tell me (after I asked ad nauseum about the A) doesn't help my understanding of why he's not still pining a little underneath

I also wonder about this re OW#2, since in his eyes, she gave him what he wanted, i.e. non commital sex, easy listening ear; no grumpiness or nagging; a haven from his real life which for him sucked. He said that he bought her gifts and made a lot of "loving gestures" because she didnt ask much from him, and he felt like he owed her; like he was using her and not giving anything in return (whilst his family at home got f-all ).

And so I wonder now, when his real life now is so much much harder than it ever was before, does he not then long for those times? And does a small part of him blames me for denying him that?

I wouldnt even bother asking him because I wouldnt believe him anyway.

Total projection on my part--as I said, part of my baggage--but I'd still like a H who had complete indifference to OW and all she stood for

Who wouldnt?

(((Whimsey)))


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We actually had a great family night togather

Thats fantastic, Hurt. Those moments are just so much more precious and healing now, arent they?
I am glad that your family, but more so you, got to experience that,as it will provide you with fortitude (right word?? )when the rollercoaster takes a dip.

***
Whatnow

Did everyone else's WH's LTA start with EA

Well according to H, LTA#1 was entirely an EA..yet all he wanted was sex.
This lasted 12 years.
Mmmm.

Our MC doesn't seem to get that aspect

What does your H say?
I think its important that your MC concur with you both, because that would define his treatment programme, wouldnt it?


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sometimes I wonder if my pushing is nothing more than a control issue. Do you think that it is possible that I just want to MAKE him do what I want. I wonder if I am being reasonable or just a controlling bitch.

FSA- I think I can relate. WH & I had major issues a few weeks ago about my desire need for him to be in IC & reading. He at one point said something about how he'd like to do things his way....and for me my fear is that I feel like he needs to do X, Y, and Z and feel A, B, and C for things to work out and if he doesn't do that then we're screwed. So- I totally go back & forth between feeling like I am "making" him do certain things to thinking that it's a little reasonable that after a LTA I expect IC. It would be VERY difficult for *me* to move forward without all the information. How can you believe anything, build trust, and move on when you don't know what you're dealing with. JMHO

FSA- please vent here to get things off your chest- I have certainly been doing enough of it lately. I also love your varying names for FSA. LOL


If it was just a fuck,(like my H said about OW#1), then he could have gotten that from any prostitute.


I've thought about this a lot too. In my situation, WH received sex from OW#1- they were co-workers but he didn't even like her, suposedly he was "disguisted" by her at the end of the A. BUT, OW#2 was SO much enjoyable because her personality was "nicer." WH's #1 complaint about the M was the lack of sex but he could have gotten that from anyone- he didn't need to have a 2yr LTA that evolved into ILY's for the sex. Well....maybe he did to "make her feel better". Pretty much what it comes down to is that OW#1 was selfish- she always had the control and OW#2 is weak & passive. She would do ANYTHING for WH & our family. So, he was able to have full control over the situation. He believes a lot of OW#2 moving in had to do with controlling her more. Makes me wonder though if he just couldn't handle being without her. I don't believe everything OW#2 said but she agreed that the choice for her to move in was largely based on finances & convenience (she was closer to work & we collected rent).


Weepy- I completely agree on this and read it to WH earlier:

Then I could pull him to me and say "no, I just wanted you to know what you'd done and accept it and feel remorse for it and show it in the way I needed you to show it." And I think that's it. It bugs the hell out of me that he can just go on living his life like nothing has changed. But I don't know what it looks like to him from the inside out. what is HE seeing? feeling? knowing?

I don't believe the EA took hold until later, and that was a weird kind of desperate need on both sides to make that work.

I guess this is what happened with OW#2. They certainly started spending much more time together after the PA started...but it was almost all friendly- not romantic. All the time they spent was either working, or here with the family. Even after she moved in they always had the kids around for their "alone time". (When I was gone) That's what seems wierd to me. Right after D-day WH described it as an exchange of sex for companionship- I believe she had many more feelings for him than she ever shared- conflicted I'm sure since she did become a "friend" to me. But....it does almost seem like an exchange. And WHY she would ever want to do that....knowing all along he wasn't going anywhere...doesn't make any sense to me.

He said that he bought her gifts and made a lot of "loving gestures" because she didnt ask much from him, and he felt like he owed her; like he was using her and not giving anything in return

WH said the same basic thing about OW#2 although there wasn't much done. He wrote 1 letter to "butter her up" when they were talking about stopping. He bought her a $7.00 necklace because she was always feeling used. Boo f'in hoo for her.

What does your H say?
I think its important that your MC concur with you both, because that would define his treatment programme, wouldnt it?

LH- WH says that his only complaint when the A started was lack of sex. The frequency varied and had been an issue from the start of our relationship, prior to our M. I think we do have some communication issues that need to be worked on- probably WH has much more than me to work on but there wasn't much of a "wedge" as MC says between us when A#1 started. We had just had a lot of stressful events though- We graduated college together in 02, married in 03, bought a house in 04, baby was born in 05, and A started 4 months later. I take ownership for not giving him enough attention- sexually mostly but can also see how he wasn't giving me the affection/attention I needed.

MC just seems to be totally focused on fixing the marriage and I don't honestly think he knows what to do with the A stuff. So, his focus is on this "wedge" that was between us that allowed OW#1 & #2 to come in. If you consider the lack of sex as a wedge then I guess he's right.


I'm writing a book here but wanted to share 1 more thing.
We went to a birthday party today, my cousin's baby had her First birthday today. It was really stressful. I have a lot of hurt feelings around 1st birthday's. DS#1's was right after he was ending with OW#1, starting with OW#2, and had just had group sex with them the weekend prior. DS#1's third birthday was the last time they had sex- D-day was the following day. So, it was difficult to see the "happy couple" with their baby and I felt shitty & hurt. It didn't help that the IL's were a happy cute couple with this amazing home and I was just feeling envious of everyone else which is a horrible feeling. HORRIBlE. I want to be secure of myself, my life, my M, my husband, my home, etc. etc. And I feel like it's all been lost- my own issue to fix....but right now, it's shitty.

[This message edited by Whatnow28 at 7:59 PM, October 4th (Saturday)]


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 9:40 PM, October 4th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did everyone else's WH's LTA start with EA

Well according to H, LTA#1 was entirely an EA..yet all he wanted was sex. This lasted 12 years.

My H also insists that his A with a subordinate co-worker was only EA... he did meet with her but wasn't as 'bold' in person as he was online. I still struggle with this. Not sure if I believe him but like FSA I don't get any answers.


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 2:32 AM, October 5th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC just seems to be totally focused on fixing the marriage and I don't honestly think he knows what to do with the A stuff

Whatnow, I would either look for a new MC more versed into long term betrayal, or think about both going into IC for awhile.JIMHO.
I honestly dont think we can heal the M and move forward, until we resolve the issues that put us there in the first place. For e.g. my H is supposedly trying to find out why he did what he did and how to become the more healthier person. And I am trying to find a way to me; why I stayed and allowed myself to be treated that way, and how I can become more healthier too.

I think when we meet on more or less equal footing, then this M might have a great shot.

I was just feeling envious of everyone else which is a horrible feeling. HORRIBlE. I want to be secure of myself, my life, my M, my husband, my home, etc. etc. And I feel like it's all been lost- my own issue to fix....but right now, it's shitty.

((((Oh Whatnow))))

Its going to take some time and hard work from both of you, but it IS possible to recover. There are quite a few LTA couples who have R'd successfully.

And I feel like it's all been lost- my own issue to fix

No, its BOTH your issue to fix.
You know what has been consistent in the R'd couples? A WS who has been willing and commited to work on the M and themselves. A BS just can not do this by themselves.

***
Hi Lostsoul.

Re the unknown answers...it drove me crazy for a long time. I was afraid that I wasnt asking the right question; or wasnt checking in the right place; or worse, being told a pack of lies and have no verification.

But at the the end of it, I had to accept what I knew factually;
*that our M was screwed before we even began as they were both already involved

* That my gut feelings,even as a young naive bride, had been spoton, and even though the whole world was telling me that I was imagining an A, and that maybe I had "self esteem issues"to even accuse H of such a thing, I HAD BEEN RIGHT.

*That this LTA#1 lasted the whole M

*that he had a EA/PA with OW#2 with 2.5 years

* that EVERY single event/moment from before the M and during the whole M, is f-king tainted, and there is not a damn thing he can do to fix that

* that both the OW have continued to live on in their M with loving, very protective BHs, whilst it seems like every other week is a struggle

*that even though I have protected and cared for my babies all their lives, that come dday#1, I lost something that has put them at risk..and hence, they have seen and heard awful things that they should never have.

I know enough of the LTAs, but never enough to make sense of them.

I dont really care for them anymore. I want to focus on the present and the future.

And what I want to know nowfrom H, is whether he has it in him and is able to access that to stay and keep this family.

But I think there is no set answer, like I hoped. Or maybe he hasnt figured that out yet. Or maybe I am not willing to accept the answer which I have been shown.

So either way, right now, we appear, more and more, to be living parallel lives, where just a few months ago,we were both on the same track,right next to each other.
I dont know whats going to happen. And its scary.
So for now, I am just taking it one week at a time.

Wow...that was a mouthful.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 6:20 AM, October 5th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H and I just had another argument re his new work times.

I told him that this was not acceptable to me for many reasons. So he said that the only choice he had then was to resign. I told him that he had to do what was best for the family. His depression and hence his inability to produce work from home, has put us all in this position. So he had to sort it out.

Does he think I WANT to be dependent on him like this? That I like telling him that I cannot cope with working and looking after the kids by myself? That I am barely managing these days, even with his help?

He asked whether I would ever be able to manage? I told him I was very capable of managing without him for years, and I am working toward being that capable person again...but at this time, I am not.

He retort was that I would always have an excuse...(for what?for not being independent?).

I dont even know what we were saying in the subcontext. Does he want me/us not to depend on him? Does he want to be that person he was before, with no familial responsibility apart from providing money at the end of the month?
I dont know what all this is about, cos he then went on about it is unfair for me to tell him to put our interests before his, cos thats what has been doing for so long, for eg.his pc is watched, his every move is accountable, he cant do anything with me knowing...so I said, boohoo, if its too tough for you, theres the door.

I honestly dont know what we are fighting about.

Just that I am stressed and overworked and every f-king thing is too much.

***
By the way, Ukg is ok'sh, not great. Her pc has shutdown, so no access to SI.
Please remember her in your thoughts.

(((ukg))))


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 5:38 AM, October 6th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Looks like a pretty quiet weekend in here.

LH, what do you want? You know that if he can't put in the hours, he's going to lose his job. Would that help? I can assure you that the depression gets worse when they're not working.

You can only do what you can do. Is there NO compromise here?

I your post to me you said you can handle it all, that you don't need any help and now you need help? Or do you just want HIS help?

How about "H, you can't be the person you were and I can't be the person I was, how are WE going to work this out"? Don't throw it all on him, you may not like the decision he comes to and then you're stuck because you told him to do what he thought he should do and it wont' be what you wanted him to do . There's the argument. You can't get what you want. Just like you can't change what happened. It's a control issue. Believe me I understand! Can't even remember what it was, but I told H the other week "you HAVE to feel this." He said "you can't tell me what to feel." But boy I wanted to because if he didn't feel that way, then it was "bad H" attitude.

Get right to the subtext. Ask him if he's looking for an escape. If he thinks that this work assignment will "free" him from your control. You may just be projecting that he wants to get away from you because (and I know) honestly you feel there's no reason he should want to be around you, you're a bitch. (Well, that's what I think) Can't blame him for wanting to get away from me.) (((LH))) I don't think you're a bitch, just hurt and confused and scared. Tell him that.

We had a quiet weekend. DS was home from school. He and dad went out Friday night to get suits for a wedding we have next month. DD and her BF hung out with me for a while and then went out. Later that night in bed I got up for a pee and noticed something on H , so I woke him and asked if he'd be interested in a middle of the night quickie. He said "why not". Completely forgetting that DS was home, so we got a laugh out of it too. Turns out DS WASN'T home he'd gone out after we went to bed.

The next morning H went to his IC, I woke DS and told him we were going to cut the lawn for dad. He grumbled that he comes home and all he does is work. I told him to get over it, an hour out of the whole weekend and he had $200 worth of groceries sitting in the dining room to take back with him... he could give us an hour. But i know that if you're doing something together, he'll open up. He told me some girl slipped him her phone number in class and he said he didn't know what to do with it! He is SO not his his father! He also told me NOT to tell his father because he knew what advice he'd give.

Yesterday we watched the race and then took him back to his apt.

Quiet weekend, for a change.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


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