Going back here a lttle. What FNF said, weepy, about being indifferent?
And So Lost saying
I feel like I am losing myself and becoming and empty shell and I hate him for doing it to me.
FNF, I just can’t be bothered with the checking up. If he lies, he lies to himself cos I don’t believe him anyway. The job he does means he is away from home and he has every opportunity to even carry on with OW without me knowing. If she chose to keep quiet, I would never know. So, I just said to him that if I even suspected, that would be enough.
Hi onceinlove, welcome to our corner. Your point that FNF doesn’t agree with:
A revenge affair seems really appealing right now.
..."I was our relationship as good, and we'd be together forever. OW wouldn't have been around forever".
Weepy, Your H’s is just being dismissive. He just can’t deal with himself. He has walls and fences a mile high and then he also has electric wires on the perimeter in case you should even think of coming near. Sheesh. He needs them stripping down.
when we were all out together, my H would always walk a few steps ahead,
Which made him huffy with the, "Why cant anything be simple with you?".
Earlier today I tried to blame WH for convincing me OW was a good/honest person...
And our H’s find it really hard to condemn her/them b/c that emphasises their bad choices and shows them as uncaring, disrespectful and selfish ….. The OW really would have liked to be our bestest friend.
[This message edited by Deeply Scared at 6:57 AM, August 28th (Thursday)]
Hon, you weren’t supposed to know. That’s the whole point, we were supposed to have been in the dark forever and they were supposed to “deal” with it until it faded away. He never even allowed himself to arrive at this moment. And the birth control “pull out” was another part of him not living in reality – OW was never going to get pregnant and if they did, they would “deal” with it b/c they would do it for him (surely they knew that??!). Cloud cuckoo land.
But...this is exactly what I can't get my head to understand. I can somewhat understand not being able or allowing yourself, (WH) to think about *if* I were to find out....but to NOT think about birth control just doesn't seem feesible. Like, how can an adult be SO clueless? But seriously, they were so SHOCKED after d-day when I was SO worried she may be preggo. I guess after 1 year of it working you don't worry too much anymore. WH actually said when he would have conversations with me about worrying about our BC- it generally coincided with being stressed about their method or the possibility she might get pregnant.
Ya know...even the never allowing yourself to think you might get caught is just not working in my head. A bunch of people knew...that were around us all the time....how can you trust that none of them will ever slip to someone, somewhere, sometime....
I should just stop trying because it doesn't make sense and it never will. My WH is NOT spontaneous- We are OCD & such planners that it's pathetic....hhmm...maybe he liked that aspect of the A- free from everything, no reality, etc.
What is Gloryb?
No 2x4's for the contact with OW. I have been through that struggle and I just hope she doesn't strike back. I had numerous contact with OW after D-day and did my little revenge stuff and I always felt worse afterwards.
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
A revenge affair seems really appealing right now.
Mine would be with OWH. That equals complete revenge.
Which made him huffy with the, "Why cant anything be simple with you?".
I'm sorry it feels like you can never win with him. I think I've asked this before, but what does happen if you just put down arms and refuse to engage? Does he keep going? Or sulk? Or what?
Who knows, depends on the day, the time, what he's had for lunch.
He'll just keep needling me one day until I blow up at him. One day I'll say "I don't feel like getting into this" and he'll be all "that's because you know I'm right and you can't stand it or something else dismissive." He'll get pissed and not talk to me and he can go for DAYS without a conversation.
And it is really, really hard NOT to engage when a simple goodnight turns into THAT. He asks me tonight what I'm doing when he sees me with window cleaner and papertowels and in the car crawling around wiping windows. Uh Duh. So I say "cleaning the inside of the windows for the trip". Something I generally do... check oil, air in tires and clean the windows inside. Tomorrow I'll run the car through the car wash. But I wasn't WASHING them properly and I didn't check the oil properly or the tire pressure. Imagine. Got to 54 years old without knowing how to clean windows. Ran a gas station with him and never learned how to read a dipstick and I've had a tire pressure gauge in my car since puberty. I mean how do you NOT engage when just answering a simple question gets you criticism. If I give him a sarcastic answer like "what does it look like I"m doing" or "I'm writing a novel" he says "don't start with me."
Screw it really. I'm going to have a good weekend. It's supposed to be dry and sunny (even though we need the rain big time) so I'm happy.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
maybe he liked that aspect of the A- free from everything, no reality, etc
Screw it really. I'm going to have a good weekend.
You do that Weepy. Have a great relaxing time!Please dont ask him to come.
I am glad you are standing up to him
How are you doing, my friend?
I am new here - it has been heartening to find so many thoughtful posts by people who seemingly, are on the same lonely page I am.
. . . but not exacty. I hope someone else who has had this type of unique "cruel discovery" will contact me.
Here is my story - I have copied it mostly onto my profile as well.
Me: 40 year old professional male – middle class. Married 17 years, after a six year committed relationship (24 years total). After eight years of marriage, we had two kids, one 10 years old and one 6 years old.
I married my college girlfriend, who is considered by most people who know her to be the most beautiful but modest and shy, also the most honest and trustworthy potential mate they could think of. I have long been held up by various divorced or separated friends as having the "ultimate relationship" and incredible luck in having a stress-free marriage. I am often told tales of woe by friends in the hopes that I can, with my successful marriage, sort it out correctly.
Over our 17 year marriage, I have been incredibly faithful, compared to anyone I know personally. I have had only had something that could barely but possibly be called a 3 day EA (emotional affair) six years into our marriage, which when I was presented with the invitation to sleep with another woman, I refused, and shortly afterward confessed all to my wife: I was alone on a short vacation, met an older woman who shared some of my spiritual interests, and grew uncomfortably close to her over the next couple of days, in a way that emotionally changed me. Subtle, but enough for my wife to sniff out later, upon which I confessed. This closeness and feeling of transparency my wife and I share is a key reason that have never considered that she would ever be a WS (Wayward Spouse) without me knowing - we don't seem to be able to hide anything substantial from each other.
In March of this year 2008, I was, against my better judgement as a privacy advocate, installing some software to notify me of any unsuitable language my 10-year old might encounter in chat rooms (Yes!). In setting it up, before I had localized it on our network to my kid's computer only, I stumbled onto a suspicious email correspondence between my wife and another man.
I can't remember ever doing ANY checking up on my wife, her hiding anything amorous from me is the last thing that would ever occur to me - my assumption being that it just couldn't be hidden emotionally by her. But also for that specific reason, the chunk of correspondence that I found was so shocking -- knowing how shy she is and how she reacts to any sexual advances from others (and because of her beauty I have had plenty of chances to observe this), I knew instinctively that her casualness in the exchange could only be with a current or former lover.
I monitored her exchanges secretly for a month, and confronted her Friday, April 18 - My D-day.
What followed was incredibly gut-wrenching, because she was only able to tell me about one-twentieth of the whole story, just the initial incident, which had happened 17 years prior, in 1990. Although this was shocking enough: Just four months before our wedding date -- after we had been living together, betrothed, post-college for six months; and both gotten "dream" jobs. Here in time, apparently when I was out of town for a weekend, she calmly went to a luxury apartment, specifically and pre-meditatively, to have sex with a secret boyfriend she had been meeting with for the past three months.
D-day plus three nights later, I was convinced there was more, so I confronted her again. And, more was admitted: it wasn't just once, it was three times, up until one month before our marriage day. Every time, she delivered herself to him, not to go out but specifically to have sex.
Over the past five months, the whole story has been trickling out - I have had five or six official versions from her, up to the point that she declared she couldn't remember anything more, which is very strange because she usually has a very photographic memory for details . . . for example she can remember the specific layout details of an apartment we lived in only temporarily, sixteen years ago.
And indeed it appears she has authentically repressed memories of sexual episodes happening between 1991 and 1995, just after we were married. I tend to believe her because of the marathon hours I have devoted to researching all our old records and as an adversary, interrogating her endlessly (which I hate myself for). And also because I hired a private detective and spent a good deal of time and money gathering information on her former lover, now in his own second marriage, which I then used to harass and finally interrogate him with (which felt pretty good, btw).
He remembered much more than my wife. His memory was hazy as well, but not from repression, from substance abuse (another incredible surprise, since my wife doesn't drink and has long loathed people who get drunk or drugged). However, he remembered plenty enough such that I could corroborate the details of my wife's stories accurately enough I could tell he was telling the truth. I invented deliberate falsehoods which I claimed were my wife's story, and he denied all of these, while volunteering many other things I knew to be true from her stories -- things he could have, most probably would rather have, left out. And for the things he told that my wife claims she doesn't have memory of, he supplied details for me that he probably couldn't have known otherwise, like how the annoying vibrations of city buses could be felt in one guest bedroom, or other details of the inside of our previous house, which my wife swears she never let him enter, in her memory.
So I am left with an incredible dilemma. Everything about my wife's essential nature that I thought I knew, that I was part of and one with -- is wrong.
But there is definitely another side of the coin. She has undeniably been "the perfect wife" in most respects, in ways that are felt acutely by me: two beautiful children, a sensitive and radiant nature, and I don’t assume she has been unfaithful since 1995 (though that was plenty). Is there, should there be, a statute of limitations, on what I should feel? Because I feel as if I should "live and let live," but my heart doesn't want to. I am alternatively angry or infinitely sad, sad for all the years I was a buffoon talking to her about our wonderful connection and "oneness," her agreeing, and all the time must have seen me quite differently than I imagined.
Having had occurred so long ago doesn’t seem to have made it any easier for me; but that is a subjective judgment since I have never lived in the head of anyone, like most on this board, who has found relatively recent infidelity. Regardless, to my mind, it is a worse situation: Everything I know is wrong now. All the beautiful memories of starting out together, becoming one in marriage, “making it” financially and emotionally together, are all shattered and seem like satire or burlesque instead of beauty. Indeed, I don’t know when my marriage began – because she can’t remember many details other than she saw him last in 1995. Truly, I identify with all of the extreme responses of Betrayed Spouses I have read on this board, and in some cases, much more shocked.
Feel free to msg me on this board if you have any insight in a situation like this. I am not looking for revenge – I am getting that on her former lover – rather I am trying to decide how to help her recover her memories, or whether to just let it go. She has certainly suffered over the years, keeping the secret, and when it was coming out she regularly became physically sick (vomiting, etc) whenever she has had to discuss it.
There is no doubt in my mind that she is authentically and deeply sorry. I have offered my forgiveness several times, but how can a person be forgiven, or forgive themselves, for something they have repressed? Should they have to go to therapy to try to recover such "repressed" memories, just so I can have the satisfaction? Is that selfish, or necessary for her future?
Everything about my wife's essential nature that I thought I knew, that I was part of and one with -- is wrong.
Yep. My H was one guy who I never thought would do this. He vehemently hated my father for his adultery. Refused to even speak to the man.
On our wedding day (and I later found out that he'd had a secret GF up until 6 months before our wedding) a friend of his mother said to me "you've got quite a catch there." And I agreed. It was "our" joke whenever he'd screw something up, I'd say "quite a catch" and we'd laugh. I mentioned my suspicion back in 95 to one of his sisters and her response was "H may be many things, but he's not stupid. He loves you. He'd be lost without you." NO ONE would believe he did what he did.
Part of the reason they NEED to get into counseling is to find out how they were able to box up their morals, scruples, intengrity and do this. If you're lucky, you'll have a wife who really will delve into it.
We're here. There's a great thread for Men Only in I Can Relate. Read the healing library articles for some insight and take care of you. The hardest part of this for me has been to quit worrying about him and concentrate on me and what I need.
[This message edited by mindisgone at 6:49 AM, August 28th (Thursday)]
Please do not pull posts from other message boards to bring them here to ridicule. That does nothing but start a board war.
"I'm happily indifferent to the ones who have consistently been wrong" ~kd lang~
He loves you. He'd be lost without you." NO ONE would believe he did what he did.
So odd Weepy, Over the years several paeople have said things like this to me. "Oh, you're so lucky, he loves you so much." One of my GF always commented "God he loves you so much, he'd be a sorry sight to see if he lost you." Huh, a sorry sight indeed and i hope no one ever loves me that much ever again.
Have you firmed up those vacation plans yet ??
H and I had a very long talk last night. I have just been in such a terrible funk the last few days. On the couch he cuddled up and held me and wiped my tears when I cried. We went upstairs and talked about it all. His story changes...well, maybe just what I hear changes. I find that I change what he says in my mind. The pain of it almost translates things. Like he says "Sometimes I don't want to have sex" and I think it sounds like "I always wanted to have sex with her but you, not so much, and sometimes I have to gear myself up for it.". Sad translator but it's the truth of what my brain does.
He says he loves me and wants to be with me. If I was to leave he would be miserable and have a horrible life and he would spend all his time trying to get me back. he would have no interest in going after her or anyone else (this said with no questions on my part beforehand). Said he feels unsure about approaching me for sex sometimes b/c of all the tension and the kids coming in and all the outside stuff. He actually had taken a pill last night and wanted to and I said no way. I don't want to be some pity party obligation. He said that was why he hadn't tried in the past few weeks...he didn't know how to without me thinking that.
I told him I didn't know how to get past this. He wanted her but not me which he said is not true but actions speak way louder than words. He said we would get through this together no matter what and he would do everything in his power. He asked me what he could do and I honestly had no answer. He talked about all these other things he does to try to show me he cares and he's right. But take out the sex thing which was the main component of the affair and the rest just seems worthless.
I don't know. He held me for a long time and wiped my tears and said things I needed to hear in a way that seemed truly genuine. He is not someone for words so they mean a lot when he does say them. He also isn't a bull shitter so that helps.
I honestly just don't know where to go from here. I really feel like I am going to crawl up in the corner and just cry until the men in white coats come and haul me away. I guess IC an MC can't come soon enough.
Update on my situation. WH moved out about a week ago, and we are going through a counselor who is the communication between us right now. I have not contacted him since then.
When he did leave, he took the keys to my car which was only transporation for me and DD. He told DD on phone when she called him, that he paid for car and Mommy needs to get her own. DD just turned 8, and she was crying when she got off phone.
He had keys for two days, when counselor called him and he agreed he would hand keys to my dad to return to me. She did not want any interaction yet between us. What does he do? He comes in house 6 am to give DD a kiss and hand her the keys. He told her he was sorry he took keys and hurt her. Just shows me again that he says one thing (hand keys to dad) and does another.
He told counselor that he wanted me to appreciate everything he has done for us, which is only financial. He was never there and provided anything else for us. I guess that was the only thing he could take from us at that point. Ass.
He also came into home the morning of first day of DDs school to wish her a good first day. Even though he is gone, he still wants to come in to kiss her goodbye, which is something he used to do every morning before school.
DD is very mad at him now, and only talks to him if he calls. She keeps it short and says she is busy and can't talk. He did pick her up for a little bit the first day of school to grab something to eat with her. He came into house, instead of calling so I can open door and watch her walk out.
I do need to change locks, when I receive my next check real soon. Right now, strapped for cash with back to school stuff. I don't know if anyone has dealt with this crap, or has tried the seperation thing. It was so bad with the arguments, we could not stay in same house.
I was hoping that by him leaving, it would wake him up to what he could lose. DD told me he crys when he sees her and when he talks to her on phone. That is not good for her, because she is having a hard time dealing with all of this.
Am I doing the right thing? Should I just file for D or wait to see what happens. Counselor specializes in infidelity and says not to make and decisions for first year. I will be up and down emotionally until then.
I know I am very depressed and probably need to be on AD's maybe. I know I am rambling, but just at a loss for what I should do. I hate him so much for putting us all through this!
One of the things my H "prides" himself on is that he never left me. He reminds me he could have but why would he? He would never live with the skank and her weirdo roommates in he ghetto.
I'm reading this book on abusive relationships. And one thing they mention in here is how the abuser can't see what they're doing as wrong. He cries to DD and takes your car because "he paid for it". That is LOGICAL to this guy.
Sounds like you're using more of a mediator than a counselor. Is that what you want or do you need some professional help to help you sort through things?
My the counselor is a family friend, so takes calls from both and is a middle person as well. My family has helped with money right now, but really need to bypass this counselor and seek legal action. Affordable if possible. I do work from home and have some money coming beginning of month.
He is an ass, and hurting me is also hurting DD. I hate him for what he has done.
Get in to see a lawyer as soon as you can. Often, an initial consultation is FREE. You at least need to know your options and protect you and your child financially right now.
good luck to you, friend. We're here for you.
Here are a couple of things I just wanted to put a finer point/emphasis on; to make sure I understand what is coming back -- possibly I have miscommunicated a bit:
*Weepy* and *mindisgone*, you both emphasize weepy's comment:
Your story is not so different from many on here. Quite a few of us found affairs started before or just after our weddings . . .
Here is what I see as actually different, based on my readings here over the last month. It is also my basic question and decision I am trying to make: I have had (this is my perception) an ideal marriage for seventeen years, until I found out about this affair, which started 17 years ago (= four months before our wedding) and ended somewhere between 15 to 12 years ago (= 2 to 5 years after our wedding).
So my wife, who had only three lovers prior to me, took another lover just before our marriage, and either ended the physical affair just prior to our wedding date (her memories) or ended the physical affair two years into our marriage (my best evidence) or ended it 12 years ago, in 1995 (worst case-unlikely). As for the emotional affair, she claims in her memory she ended the physical affair, moving her lover to "secret friend" status after our wedding, communicating mostly in secret letters and emails and occasional lunch and club/concert meetings for two years, after which it fizzled out, and her last contact generally agreed as 1995 (five years into our marriage) -- that is, until her former lover found her in an internet search and started emailing her again, which is how I discovered it.
So more specifically, as far as my current situation, if I imagine I didn't know this, I DO have a wonderful marriage. But now that long-ago ended events are discovered, it feels like I am the one wrecking our happy marriage, by trying to squeeze the repressed memories out of her. My love for her is eternal, I won't leave her no matter WHAT I find out. So it begs the question: What is gained by making her remember at least one or several physical lovemaking sessions that I seem to have evidence for, if she agrees she met with him secretly but platonically (post-wedding)? Should I leave well enough alone, since she has admitted to sexual liasons prior to marriage and an EA that lasted a couple of years afterward?
I don't think I could make her more regretful or sorrowful (she becomes physically sick and has lost 5% - 10% of her bodyweight since I started "interrogating" her), so *weepy*, what would be the point of forcing her to understand why she could betray me back then, if it exacts such a toll on her; or *mindisgone* you are uncannily accurate re: the foggy, guilt, and shamed mindset, and she must have, as you say, operated for years on the rationalizations, excuses, until she could block the worst part of her betrayal. But she didn't expand that behavior to any other parts of her life -- I'm pretty certain of this, and I don't really have much to complain about in my marriage, except for this discovered historical event. Do you still assess it the same way?
*Heartbroken*- to your point on my timeline just beginning - has anyone weighed the benefits of leaving a WS's repressed memories alone, when it is certain that any infidelity is more than a decade gone? Kind of like, "the boat is sailing fairly well now, what is the value of rocking the boat?" I haven't really seen any discussion of this, but of course I haven't been in the circle here very long.
I don't want to give the wrong impression: I am mostly playing the devil's advocate above -- my obsessive nature is to want to find out FAR more than most would, my nature is to analyze things TO DEATH - one of my professional weaknesses pointed out by several of my mentors. So that is why I really, really, question myself, when I see the damage this is causing my wife TODAY, when she had been particularly upward-pointing prior to my discovery, having just secured a new prestigious job and having made progress on many small personal issues (getting her weight to her ideal and becoming physically fit, etc.). Now I feel like my obsessive nature could be taking her down, and I fear that it might be, on balance, selfish?
Thank you, everyone who takes the time to comment on this. This is incredibly theraputic to have the accummulated experience and wisdom of everyone to analyze this. Ironically, this situation is difficult to talk to my close friends about this because I have dispensed so much "good marriage wisdom" to them in the past . . .
I have dispensed so much "good marriage wisdom" to them in the past . . .
In setting it up, before I had localized it on our network to my kid's computer only, I stumbled onto a suspicious email correspondence between my wife and another man.
How did you find this if the affair was so long ago? Had she kept correspondence from OM? If there is stuff floating around in cyberspace, that is one thing, if she has kept “mementos”, that is another. If the former, I would suggest she simply wasn’t ready to “settle down” and be monogamous. She wanted to be sure she was making the right decision. Now while you are finding that hard to take, it was her immature way of dealing with something that was expected of her. She was doing all the right things, had met the right kind of man and wanted to portray the perfect wife and mother, thereby fulfilling obligations and making everyone happy. In a way, I can understand that. She had the affairs. The men she had the affairs with were not ones she wanted to spend the rest of her life with. It turned out that it was you she wanted. And, like everyone else here (goodness, this gets boring when you’ve said it a million times), you weren’t supposed to know.
Delayed, she dealt with it many years ago. For you, it may as well have been a few months ago. You will have the roller coaster of emotions, elapsed time won’t make it any less painful. You thought you had something, only to find it was a lie. And betrayed is betrayed. I would suggest IC for her, and MC for you both just so that you can get a grip of how your marriage got to the place it is now in spite the infidelities. You have arrived by a different route to the own you thought you were on and you didn’t realise there was window shopping going on.
What really matters is your history from when she stopped. That date or time is important b/c it’s when your marriage truly began.
Just my take.