I have had (this is my perception) an ideal marriage for seventeen years, until I found out about this affair, which started 17 years ago
Can I ask how old your WW was at the time of your marriage?
I also believed WH & I had a great marriage. My story is different in that I found out while the A was still happening but we did everything together, we worked well on our finances, we supported each other in our goals, we continued to have sex, he was supportive of the kids and helpful around the house, etc. etc. After d-day I can see more & more what WAS lacking and I am sure I am only seeing the tip of what WH has been holding back all this time. (Not the A itself but his deep down feelings that he has never shared which led him to where we are now.)
I believe some people can mature & change to some degree on their own but I still think your WW needs IC to really get to her own reasons, understanding them and then communicating with your about her feelings, and to understand how she has betrayed you.
Should I leave well enough alone, since she has admitted to sexual liasons prior to marriage and an EA that lasted a couple of years afterward?
I am like you in that I over analyze EVERYTHING. I know EVERY detail of sex acts my WH had....and I have to look at every situation from every angle before I can settle it. So...my thoughs on getting that last bit of information....for me it would be hard to not have everything disclosed because I would worry about what more is left unknown and have that unknown feeling to deal with. I have trouble believing what I hear from WH so it would be hard for me to not assume the worse about what is repressed. But...if you have what you believe to be the majority of it you may be smart to leave it alone. I get to a point daily when I remind myself that I need to focus on the future and not ugly details....but I understand wanting to be there, and the need for them to be processed. For the first few months after my D-day I had a hard time not being able to get every specific answer from the OW although I did talk to her a few times. I have gotten over this and let it die. WH & I talk some about how I see it would be from her angle and then he throws in his perspective and that has to be good enough.
that is, until her former lover found her in an internet search and started emailing her again, which is how I discovered it
I'd be interested in learning more about this. What was her reponse to the more recent e-mails? I think it speaks a lot about how she responded as to where she is with everything.
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
You have to decide just what it is you want and, if it’s together, then you should draw up targets and times. The biggest questions though, do you love him and does he love you?
Today DS4 and I went to London. Did some sights, including the Tower. Came home after a full day and FWH had done a few snacky things, which was nice, and a bottle of wine opened. So I started telling him about our day. He interrupted and went off about something I can’t remember. I went back to the subject – he interrupted again, about people in the gym tonight and the other local pool that was shut, blah, blah. So, back on track and he did it again. Completely inane rubbish. I couldn’t believe it. Then he said “I suppose you want to go online” – a euphemism for him wanting to watch sport. This is the man who texted me today saying he couldn’t concentrate b/c he was thinking about me. Now this is by no means the first time. It has been noticed by friends that he does interrupt me, talks across me, ignores me. He says he doesn’t, but he does! He did it a few months ago when I was chatting to a neighbour – he just butted in.
I was telling him about a moment of drama at the Tower with the alarm going off and the security shutting the gates (guard said it was probably the flash of someone taking a pic of the crown jewels) and then Tower bridge opened up with a tall ship going through – any sign of interest? He was watching the tv. Isn’t this telling me something? Should I be going down to the cup final tomorrow with him – bloody rugby again? I have this notion that he’s just not that interested in me or us, unless he has some involvement. Which is another thing that pisses me off – he has “experienced” things that belong to me. Something I have done/been to/said/met he somehow makes his own. I’m just too embarrassed to say anything. My 4xM friend is right sometimes, he is pig arrogant. And his “lack of self esteem” or “sense of failure” doesn’t sit well with me at the moment.
I just don’t understand him. And I certainly see him differently. I mean, was it always thus?
But I want to share a final note from a side column in today’s paper and Dr Pam Spur;
If there’s one theme that I regularly hear from those who’ve been unfaithful to their partners, it’s that, at the time, their affair seemed so right, but with hindsight it ended up feeling so wrong.
It’s staggering how powerful illicit passion can be in convincing a person that their behaviour is acceptable. A guilty conscience usually tries to justify what it’s doing as a salve, it’s a type of defence mechanism to deny that your actions could be bad. Owning up to that harsh reality could take the zing out of the fling, which defeats the underhand purpose.
For example, if you keep telling yourself that you’ve been taken for granted, or your partner doesn’t love you any more, you begin to believe your own PR…..
(article then gives example of a couple in an affair situation and what the WS should do re confessing)
…… If only people could predict how they’d eventually feel (laden with guilt that they can’t simply airbrush away) it may just prevent some affairs. But many are prepared to leap at what feels right, not realising how wrong it’ll be.
Just kinda struck a chord.
I have thought about how people would never have an A if they could stay in reality and not let themselves believe it will just all be *okay* and no one will ever find out. It just can't be....
You made me think....Right before WH & I got married I remember having some thoughts of sexual interest in a friend of us. I clearly remember thinking....OMG, something MUST be wrong with me/us if I'm feeling this way....so I thought about IC and then stopped hanging out with the other person and all that went away and never came back again....Awareness I think.. appropriate boundaries... Basic stuff, yk that doesn't let anyone get there.....MORALS! How does it all get lost? Passion? curiosity?
I guess it is common for Waywards to not understand or I should say to not have any knowledge of the damage that may be created....but I just don't get how a wayward can get past those feelings of guilt...they KNOW it's wrong- they're keeping it a secret....but somehow it all becomes okay because of X, Y, and Z.
okay...I'm just rambling out loud.
Okay...stopping my ramblinbg again.
Here is what I see as actually different, based on my readings here over the last month. It is also my basic question and decision I am trying to make: I have had (this is my perception) an ideal marriage for seventeen years, until I found out about this affair, which started 17 years ago (= four months before our wedding) and ended somewhere between 15 to 12 years ago (= 2 to 5 years after our wedding).
Delayed, are you wondering or looking for concrete answers to support you perception? There are answers but as i am learning , and as have many others here, few of them are concrete. Either way it's going to take a lot of digging.
So more specifically, as far as my current situation, if I imagine I didn't know this, I DO have a wonderful marriage. But now that long-ago ended events are discovered, it feels like I am the one wrecking our happy marriage, by trying to squeeze the repressed memories out of her.
You don't sound like a man who is deliberately wrecking anything. You sound like a man who only wants to keep a marriage he has cherished. You have however been wounded and if you need to do this to heal, it may be the only way through it. You haven't mentioned IC/MC, but they could certainly help you with this question .
my nature is to analyze things TO DEATH -
Join the club, but gently here, sometimes i focus on analyzing in order to avoid feeling. Keep posting.
So tried to quickly catch up but can't. I want to reach out quickly to Delayed....read my profile. My H confessed to being unfaithful to me for our entire marriage last August. Actually, last August he confessed to the two LTAs, then in Nov. he told me about the ONS and the pros in Asia. Anyway, the LTAs ended 7 years prior. Doesn't matter at all, I feel like they were yesterday.
Here is my quick and dirty advice as I have to get back "crowd control". First, if she was able to do what she did and keep it compartmentalized for as long as she did she is clearly very, very broken. The reasons behind that need to be unearthed. My H has been in intensive IC 2x/week for a year and is still unearthing shit. Second, DO NOT be surprised if there is more. The whole "not remembering" thing was my H's way of hiding all the other lies that he couldn't find a way around. If she did this once, she very well may have done it again.
I have to run...I may not be on again until the a.m. as my house is full of animal house 13 yr olds!!
I was telling him about a moment of drama at the Tower with the alarm going off and the security shutting the gates (guard said it was probably the flash of someone taking a pic of the crown jewels) and then Tower bridge opened up with a tall ship going through – any sign of interest? He was watching the tv. Isn’t this telling me something? Should I be going down to the cup final tomorrow with him – bloody rugby again?
Been lurking enough to know you've been struggling a lot lately. No real advice on this one except perhaps the cup you might have been interested in at that moment belongs to LH, if she doesn't have a spare maybe she could sling it from where she is, ( word is she's got a good windup )
Don't know if i've welcomed you, if i have already, well, refer to my ID. If not, welcome.
Hugs to all.
Okay, I have found something worse than an LTA....a birthday party for my 13 yr old and her fourteen 13 yr old friends
Ohhh, HS, even the memories of those days make my head pound.
has anyone weighed the benefits of leaving a WS's repressed memories alone, when it is certain that any infidelity is more than a decade gone?
I really encourage both of you to go to individual counseling. I know you feel your marriage was "ideal" before but the bottom line is that was not a truth...it was your perception. I am sorry to sound like I am hitting you with the two by four (as they call it here), but this is part of the process (in my humble opinion) of coming to terms with an LTA.
Like he says "Sometimes I don't want to have sex"
Lost, I hear the same thing you do and have to actually bite my tongue to not say "yeah, but I bet you never turned down HER offers." Even though he has told me sometimes he tried to find excuses to get out of it or used "the kids" or work as a reason not to go. I guess sometimes they don't feel like sex. Hard to believe with all the propaganda we're fed about them thinking about it every 15 seconds, every day.
UK, WEll you could have had MY conversation tonight which started off with H asking me how my day went. And I told him about a problem with the software I'm using. He, of course, had to jump in with his "opinion" on how to fix it and what I should do and how I should tell them their software was stupid. When I said "look, I've been there all of 3 weeks, can I fix them when I have a little more time under my belt?" The thing is we were in AGREEMENT and he still had the last word of "ok, I just won't ask you about your day ever again if that's how you're going to be."
BTW, it's abuse either way.
delayed... believe me, I know the feeling of not wanting to open that can of worms again. My H's affairs ended 4 years before I found out. They spanned a 10 year period (if you include the porn addiction which ALSO had a detrimental effect and was secret). I didn't want him having ANY memories of her... even though I knew and still know he will NEVER forget. He refused and still refuses to give me answers to questions about timelines and frequency adn things like that claiming "he doesn't remember". This from a man who still remembers his first apartment address and what the rent was, where he worked, where his GF at the time worked, who her roommates were. Puleeeze. I don't want him thinking about them when he's with me, but I know he does. Why else would our sex life suddenly become "not interesting" any more? Because he's had better, hundreds of xs over.
What I was trying to say is that the wayward has the ability to compartmentalize, rationalize, justify their actions to such a degree that it becomes second nature to them to lie. If your wife didn't know what she was doing was wrong, why didn't you KNOW about it? The question she needs to ask herself is why, how she managed to give you "a perfect marriage" when she was obviously NOT as committed as you. She was able to run a second life right under your nose. Takes a "special" kind of person to be able to pull that off... my concern was whether "that person" still lurked.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
It's supposed to rain here tomorrow, so H may be home and we may leave for the shore earlier than planned. He is going, but I wish I could retract the invitation from a week ago.
My SIL is going to be in the next shore town visiting her sister and I was on the phone with her and said something like "oh, you'll just be over the bridge from us" and H decided that I was making plans to meet up with her. "how does SIL's being at the shore have ANYTHING to do with me?" he asks.
God forbid I make a plan. Mr. Fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants won't even make a decision about whether I should bring snacks or breakfast stuff rather than eat out all weekend. He "doesn't know what he's going to be doing." Great. IC says to make my own plans and stick to them... if he wants to go along fine, if not fine. But he'll get pissy either way.
I've been thinking about slipping him an ED drug, maybe I should start putting my anti-D's in his coffee instead.
So I'll be back on Tuesday, not before. Have a great weekend everyone.
He is not with OW as far as I know and staying with his brother. I have detailed cel phone bill, access to CC statements, and he changed cel phone number. If he is seeing or talking to her, I have not found that out. Big problem is we have a stalker OW, that calls my home phone (using spoof numbers) because I blocked private numbers. I hang up on her, and finnally just changed number and have it unlisted. That should fix that problem.
I did talk to him today, which is first time in a week to go over financial and DD items. He said that I told him to leave, which I do not know where that came from. His mind is so screwed. We did argue that night though, and I said some terrible things.
I was so worried about bills here, but he told me he took care of them (will verify tomorrow)when I spoke to him on phone today. He has to check on light bill and I think that is it.
He picked up DD to take her to store for some school supplies and other things she needs. He told counselor he loved me and wants to work on marriage which was several days ago. I don't know, he says on thing and does another. He is almost like to different people sometimes. I feel better now that bills are paid, and will get my check soon so I will have more money.
I don't know how I feel about WH right now, I think I am just numb because of all the crap he pulled. Maybe some more time away to think about what to do. I just feel so bad for DD who has always been a daddy's girl. This is tearing her up inside.
One thing he said on phone that made me mad, is that I was turning her against him. Not true, I tell her he loves her very much and this is between mommy and daddy and nothing to do with her. I told her he did not leave her, that mommy and daddy need some space. The old shift of blame I guess. Not letting him get away with that crap at all.
he said on phone that made me mad, is that I was turning her against him.
H tried to pull that one too, but our C set him straight. Said that everyone, no matter how young, has their own mind. Of course your DD is confused and hurt. But unless she's totally spaced, she knows what's going on and who's to blame.
He's got to see that if she turns against him, it was HIS doing.
Keep on doing the 180 on him. Conversations only about household and DD stuff. Don't buy into any of his arguments, don't start any. I really think I should have taken some time away to think when this hit the fan, wish I had.
I’m outta here for the weekend too , H has taken DS4 over to some friends of ours and hopefully DS3 and his gf will look after the dog and house. I’m not looking forward to it and I’d rather not go, but at least the weather forecast is good.
That line keeps repeating itself: talk to a man about himself and he will listen for hours. I think he feigns interest in me, yet he says part of OW’s attraction was b/c she was interesting and he liked conversation with her. Maybe she spent all the time talking about him and batting her eyelashes and smiling coyly?
Wish me luck. See y’all Monday.
Hope everyone has a trouble free time.
We are battening down the hatches here on the Gulf Coast and preparing to evacuate for Gustav. We're also looking with trepidation at Hanna. This is really deja vu all over again, and it sucks majorly.
Everyone in town is unbelievably stressed out, including me and H and our boys. If you have a minute to send up a prayer or good thought, it would be greatly appreciated.
TRIBE, as you all prepare to dash out and do your normal weekend events, please keep me in mind. My 3 year antiversary of dday is over this weekend. So far, it has not taken a toll, in fact I've been rather happy lately. I guess life has been moving along so busily, that it just hit me yesterday that this is THE weekend. I do know that this IS different because I haven't had the flashbacks playing in my mind for like two weeks beforehand like I did years 1 and 2. But we all know that the tidal wave of triggers or emotions can hit at anytime... so please send me strength and peace this weekend.
Hugs to all,
I'm confused- is your counselor an IC/MC, a friend of the family, or both? Your H sounds like he's being a bit of a loose cannon at the moment and I think it would be really helpful to have a counselor who is advocating for *you*.
Many, many prayers and good thoughts coming your way. I'm so sorry this is happening.
Good thoughts for the weekend.
I feel your pain. Tell me it wasn't a sleepover?
Why do I so often read your posts and want to give your H a kick in the ass?
OK. So last night my H's IC floated a theory. My H has always been very, very even-keeled. For many years I thought this was a good thing.
He has a very high-stress job and always managed to take that in stride, no matter how crazy it was, a busy home life, never worried about kids, illness, money, never laid awake or woke up in the middle of the night, flew all the time for work and never had a moment of anxiety, no matter how turbulent the flight, etc. I'm much more emotional, have more anxiety, a tendency to worry.
One of the things that came out in the aftermath of the A was that this even-keeledness on his part wasn't really normal or healthy. My H has said repeatedly that one of the things he realized as we started to heal is that he never really "felt" things before.
His IC keeps coming back to the role of repressed anxiety in him and in our relationship. He thinks there were a lot of dynamics where I took on my H's anxiety for him. In addition, he's always believed that H learned to repress his fears/anxiety at a very young age (I posted a few days ago about the fact that his family was very emotionally repressive). He thinks my H probably had an extremely high level of anxiety as a child but repressed it so thoroughly he didn't even feel it or recognize it in himself--a pattern that continued into adulthood.
And that one of the things the A did was create a situation where he was putting himself in an extremely anxiety-producing situation over and over again, basically setting things up so there would be a crisis and it couldn't be pushed down anymore.
I'm wondering why he couldn't have gone for bungee jumping instead. Could have had the same effect, and right after d-day there were a lot of days where collecting a fat life insurance check didn't sound that bad.
[This message edited by brooke4 at 9:58 AM, August 29th (Friday)]