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User Topic: Long Term Affairs X I I I
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 5:01 PM, November 21st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lostsuol - I can relate to the away on business crap. I hate it. H rang me last night to say his train had been terminated some stops away from his destination. I sounded concerned when in fact I couldn't give a shit. My immediate thought was if he lies and has picked up with someone he doesn't want me to know about, that's HIS problem. Or even if he's hooked up with her again. I'm convinced he will do sometime in the future. So, I checked the station, I checked with the railway company and it seems his story tallied. I trigger very easily these days and i try to shrug it of with if he lies, I don't give a fuck cos he ain't lying to me. I don't believe a word anyhow. It neither is nor isn't. It's whatever. Sad, but true. It's my way of protecting myself. My zone. Before dday, I believed whatever he told me. Absolutely.

The infidelity gift that just keeps on giving. In every way. Their loss, not ours.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 10:33 PM, November 21st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Evening folks. I have basically been avoiding everything but getting myself in trouble over in General the past couple days.

This trying to be "nice" thing is really getting to me I guess.

Their loss, not ours

UK, if they lose us it's their loss. But haven't we lost along the way too... our innocence, our trust in humanity, the "in love" feeling. Everybody loses except the OP who goes off and lives their life unscathed.

OR gets a 30 minute softball prime time interview with Diane Sawyer on national tv. She couldn't even get the girl to admit she was a prostitute! She never even challenged her "I was an escort ". She said "sometimes there appears to be no difference, but there was." No honey, you were a whore.

Good night. I think I need some real sleep.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 2:58 AM, November 22nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But haven't we lost along the way too... our innocence, our trust in humanity, the "in love" feeling.

Yes, but I think the saddest thing is that FWH lost that, the fact that I will never be the same with him again, however much love and reconciliation there is. The way I viewed him has gone. And he knows it. So. More his loss than mine, I think. I had those blinkers whipped off.

OK. Off to confront UKgís H and make sure he takes all his crap to his little box on the hillside.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, November 22nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hurt, I just read your post and believe that every BS on this site has felt like you do on this subject.

How? Now even the why? But the how.

Compartmentalism is part of it. Open the box, jump in, play around and when you're done, close the box and put it back on the shelf. Then the insides of the box starts to "call" you again. Temptation, taboo, all heady stuff. We covered some of this in our MC. H said it was like it wasn't even him doing it. He was a dual personality. The guy having sex with all those women was who ever he felt like being that day. At home, if there was anger involved, he did "get off" on his secret a little. It was a game at times. At other times, it was a balancing act, at others total denial.

I know for me, I am jealous that he got that intense "first time" feeling with someone else. Someone who reminded him of who he used to be. But now I kind of relate to it like porn. He really gets off on it, likes the secrecy of it, but after a half hour or so, he's bored with the moaning and goes back to his real life. All the porn was was a means to an orgasm. Yeah, it was 'fun' while he was doing it, but then on with life. (and since I equate this way, that's why I get so angry about the porn)

She was never real. She never met him at the door and handed him a screaming, poopy child, or complained they never got a vacation or forgot to pick up his cleaning. She was there 100% for him for that whole hour or so. Wow, how special.

And this kind of leads to UKG's post. He could have had that with us, IF they had taken the poopy child and comforted them and picked up the living room and got OUR cleaning once in a while. But they have to see us as "failure to provide" because the OP never "failed" them at what they needed them for. Somehow running their household, raising their children, doing their laundry, cooking their food, nursing them when they were sick meant NOTHING because it was provided because we "HAD" to, that was our role. The OP had no standards set for them. If they showed up, they met the requirement.

He didn't love her. He may have said it and she to him. But it kept the fantasy alive. They HAD to be in love, right? Otherwise, they were scum, doing something wrong and immoral and that just didn't fit in with the character they built as themselves. It kept the fantasy going.

And it explains how they can throw the OP under the bus once the affair is outed. Because they can no longer be in love with two. One HAD to be false. The one he valued MOST was kept.

It doesn't explain my H's actions, so I'm really guessing at how that might be from what I've read. My H just got tired of the double life. He was getting older, he was physically tired out. Plus his OW was losing her appeal for many reasons, so he walked away from her. He didn't run to me. Because he kept seeing the hookers after he was done with her. He kept on cheating until it was no longer convenient for him, that's all.

On FWS on here told me I should give my H more credit for walking away when he didn't really have to. But my H was/is weak and it would have to have become annoying or too much trouble for him to quit something. He would never have quit while it was going on. He didn't, despite my confrontations and proof. He was doing what he WANTED and no one was going to stop him... like the porn.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Marquet
♀ New Member
Member # 21734
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, November 22nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Everyone. Wow, this is a long thread and I read most of the first few pages (a lot of decorating! Is this still the ranch?) I see that there are so many stories like mine and wish that I had more time right now to read read read read. I have to start somewhere though, and after reading Weepy's post, I thought it was time.
I'm BW, married 7 years before H got the itch. Numerous D-days for the next 20 years or so. Last one was 2 years ago. When does the hell of triggers and tears stop? When do the images of it all begin to fade away? Will I ever want friends again? Will I be able to get through a day without one little comment that seems to bring everyone down around me? Poor them. Is "just get over it" really what everyone says, or is it just the people around me? (Not H.. He knows the minute those words cross his lips there will be hell to pay. Okay then, more hell.)

I don't know that there are answers to any of that. I just wanted to jump in here and say hi. My last d-day was only a week before your's Weepy. I loved your post and I think H might have to read that one. Thank you.

M


...and so, five years later...

Posts: 22 | Registered: Nov 2008
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 7:08 PM, November 22nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Very quiet in here for the last few days.

Hope all is well with everyone.

Edited to fix typos. Pretty bad when you misspell two of 15 words.

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 10:04 PM, November 22nd (Saturday)]


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, November 23rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One thing is that I dont understand how he could be with the OW for all these years, put her first - in every aspect, then without hesitation, dump her on D-Day and establish NC.
Hurt - I wish I had the answer to this too. I ask my H this question every time I have a meltdown and he can never give me a satisfactory answer - he just keeps repeating that she meant nothing to him - he was never in love with her. Well then why the hell did he risk losing all of us, losing our love and respect, losing his self-respect - for what - a piece of ass. I will never understand. His answer to that was that she worked harder for him in the office.
Well, I was working my ass off for him at home. Like Weepy said, I guess they saw that as our "role" and it lost significance to them.
I also agree with everyone who says it was a game to them , a real ego booster to have a devoted wife and mother to their children and a piece of trash on the side. "They were the man" in their twisted minds and now when they see themselves as we see them they are ashamed and rightly so.
I do think this might be part of the reason why they can walk away. On d-day, their fantasy bubble bursts and they can finally see their actions for what they truly are - selfish, hateful, despicable acts that hurt so many people. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to "punch out my H's lights" when he said, "we never wanted you to get hurt." I have to tell you, he knows not to say that to me anymore. It will send me into a rage that goes on and on and on.
And the "we" thing. That's another word he cannot use to me when talking about the A. I absolutely hate that.
Sorry for the rant but I did have a bit of a meltdown the other day.
UKG and Weepy - Your posts were terrific and so many of your points make sense to me.
Marquet - welcome to our little corner. You will have a lot to cover as we are a very chatty bunch generally although this weekend has been extremely quiet. Please share your story with us if you care to and hopefully we can offer you some support.
When does the hell of triggers and tears stop?

For me, I am close to my 3 year antiversary and I still have meltdowns it's just that they seem to be further and further apart with many happy times in between. I live for those moments. I think the hardest part of trying to heal in our culture is the number of references to infidelity in our society. It just never ends. There are so many daily reminders in the news, on TV, on the radio, in conversations with others who don't know our stories, etc. I often wonder was I immune to the number of references before d-day because now it seems like that's all I'm hearing.
My latest setback happened because my H, who loves opera, wanted us to attend a lecture at our local college on an opera we hadn't seen. The theme of the opera was of a king who tired of his wife and decided he wanted to look for another woman to excite him but felt guilty so to ease his guilt, he set out to find a replacement for her. If she could have someone new then all would be well. Of course his wife was devastated. Well, during my H's LTA, he must have told me dozens of times that he wouldn't divorce me if I wanted to have an A. I was so hurt and couldn't imagine a H telling his W to go out and get f---ed by someone else and that that would be ok with them. Needless to say, this opera brought me back to those days and it took me over a week to work through this. I am still a little shaken but definitely better.
As UKG said, "infidelity, the gift that keeps on giving."

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:14 AM, November 23rd (Sunday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, November 23rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Edited to fix typos. Pretty bad when you misspell two of 15 words


*****
Hello to Marquet. Youíve done very well if youíve ploughed through all 46 pages! And yes, we are a chatty and supportive lot in this corner. As to the tears and triggers, I have no answer to that. All I can say is your timeline is your own. Iím 2yrs 4mths out and itís been bad lately due to our friends splitting up for no good reason other than he wants to live on his own and says he doesnít feel the same about her anymore. He moved out yesterday and we were there with her watching him shift his crap, looking all guilty (and so he should) and then holding her when she had her umpteenth collapse. They were the ones who counselled us in those early days and he advised me to not make any rash decisions for at least 6mths. Wise words from a man unable to take his own advice. Sooo, FWH and I have spent most of the day in bed to give me reassurance.

So, pull up a chair, pour some wine and tell us your story.
*****

"we never wanted you to get hurt."

Um, so what did they want Ė for you to be okay about it??? Iíve always thought that was a dumb thing to say. Along with all the other dumb things they say.
*****
Meantime LostH, stop lurking (you havenít been banned, have you? ) and get back and tell us how your move went! And thanks for your support over the weekend. I did put a kind of protective barrier up against UKg2ís pain, so it was okay. (((LostH)))


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, November 23rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Tribe!!!

I just tried to post and the site went down briefly...is that a hint?

Welcome Marquet. Sorry that you find yourself a member here but this is a great group and you will get much support. From your post, your dday was a couple of years ago and you just found us now? Did you know about the other affairs before or did you learn about them all at once? Tell us your story and we will try to help or just give you hugs.

The whole "I didn't want to hurt you" and "I loved you even during the affairs" thing makes me want to

. I fiiiiinnnnnnaaaaallllllly got my H to admit that he was really 1) only thinking about himself and I wasn't really in the picture other than a manager of his life and a support system and 2) that he was so broken that he really was incapable of love. There is a fabulous thread in Wayward about this that I can't check the title of right now but it I think it is "How could you do this if you love me" or something like that. There are pages of posts but on page 3, neverendinghurt has a GREAT post that we ALL should read as it addresses this subject from both the WS and BS point of view.

All quiet here, just the usually crying and being sad and wanting to eviscerate him for taking my whole adult life away. We are definitely doing the Imago weekend in mid-Dec so I will let everyone know how that is.

UKG - I can't imagine your strength to get through this crisis in your friends life. Her H sounds like a completely selfish twat.

BT - any word on your son(s)?

FNF - I got a laugh out of reading your post about chasing around grandkids and then collapsing on the couch. I had my 3rd at 40 and I reeeeeallllly don't recommend that to anyone!!! Let's just say at 40 your body really doesn't not want to sit on the floor and play "Barbies" for hours.

She was never real. She never met him at the door and handed him a screaming, poopy child, or complained they never got a vacation or forgot to pick up his cleaning. She was there 100% for him for that HOLE hour or so.

Weepy, this is exactly it but I edited your post just slightly to make it more appropriate!!!!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

shirley, you're right.

Just wanted to pop in and bump this thread up a little. H and I only had one fight this weekend. But it was a doozy.

He doesn't trust ME.

We made some promises at our last argument. And I've kept to mine, he kept to his for 3 days. Anyway, a situation came up yesterday where I could have been snooping. I told myself I wasn't going to and went about my business. H made sure I COULDN'T. I shouldn't have told him I was snooping then or how. So instead of trusting that I wouldn't, he made sure I couldn't instead. And was VERY obvious about it.

So I told him later that I was hurt that he didn't trust me. That a perfect opportunity to see the "change" he'd wanted to see was available and he chose not to see what happened. Just assumed immediately that I would. I told him I kept my promises and I would just have to accept that my H thought I was a sneak and liar and live with it. (He used those words in our last fight). That I would just have to accept that there is no trust from his side either and proceed from there.

Needless to say we're back in our neutral corners. Neither one of us is going to make the first move. I have no reason to apologize and he thinks I do for making a fuss over his "protecting" his privacy.

SO, it's back to our usual standoff.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is a fabulous thread in Wayward

HS - Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I read through the responses and I found it to be very interesting.
I decided not to post a response because I didn't want to offend any of the WS's who are struggling and are remorseful. However, I did want to respond to it here because we are in the unique position of having H's who betrayed us for years and so I believe this is where our situation gets complicated. My H, like many of yours I'm sure, continues to say that he loved me during those years but as neverending said, it was a love minus the action. It was merely "a feeling" an immature, worthless and valueless sentiment that had no depth and violated every meaningful definition and expectation of what I believe to be marital/mature love.
I believe that every one of us in this LTA tribe are trying to determine whether our S's are capable of a love that is of value, that has depth, that can protect us, that can withstand temptation, that can be truthful, honorable, selfless and faithful.
I often tell my H when he claims to have loved me during those years that he love has no value to me because it was so shallow that he was able to hurt, betray, disrespect, and discard me and my best interests. What is the value in that kind of love?
There is none so why should that mean anything to me? What I am struggling to answer is, Does this love he now claims to feel for me have anything of value worth fighting for or is just a feeling that over time is capable of commiting the same horrendous acts that were perpetrated on me during those 8 years of his A. His love at this time does include "action" and for these 3 years I have a lot of evidence to give me hope, but as I see it, I will never allow myself to believe completely in his love and will forever look for proof through action.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read that thread in Wayward this wkend and FnF has echoed my thoughts, especially
Does this love he now claims to feel for me have anything of value worth fighting for or is just a feeling that over time is capable of committing the same horrendous acts that were perpetrated on me during those 8 years of his A.
I feel that since I didn't have any inkling then... how would I know now? so his actions are really under the microscope since Dday. FnF hit the nail as usual with "I will never allow myself to believe completely in his love and will forever look for proof through action." This is so sad and so NOT how I expected life to be at this stage in our life. We planned our children so we'd have time to enjoy each other as 'empty nesters' but that goal has gone by the wayside. We are together but in a strained relationship. Two of our married children (newlyweds IMO) are aware of his infidelity. They watch us and I know it affects all our relationships. Fake it until you make it has taken on a new meaning in my life and SI is where I can be me, among sisters/friends that understand. Thank you all so much for sharing and your support. {{{LTA}}} {{{SI}}}

Oh and welcome to the new members of the club nobody wants to join. If you are lurking, know that this group is stronger than each individual here realizes and feel free to post and benefit from the support here.

I've been in a fragile state the last month or so... triggered by knowing his online EA began in October shortly after he got a personal email and started playing in the MSN game zone while dealing with my own health issues at this time of year. Depression gets the better of me. Yet I long to be my former self; enjoying my life, secure in my marriage, my Faith and my personal/professional skills and looking forward to our 1st grandson this spring... not struggling through a medicated fog. I was in tears a lot during church yesterday. More freaky dreams last night doesn't help today's state of mind. BUT I am trying to break through the cobwebs...

UKg & Weepy Your words give me strength. Thank you so much.


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

His love at this time does include "action" and for these 3 years I have a lot of evidence to give me hope, but as I see it, I will never allow myself to believe completely in his love and will forever look for proof through action.

Amen, fnf!

Haven't posted in a while but do follow all the stories. Hugs to all.

I'm okay, over 3 years out, but cuz of OC it's never really "out". H's actions day to day are as fnf described, and my feelings are also as she described. So there's always a low level of, I don't know what to call it, unease, malcontent, wariness--something,

Day to day, we just live our busy lives. H is around, and if he takes trips, I usually go with him. We visit OC and that's traumatic etc., but we get through it and he only sees OW in a public place. Talk about "deep" stuff or infidelity related stuff isn't very frequent, and it's only me who brings anything up. But bring it up I do if I need to. Still isn't always pretty.

But I find myself getting to the place where I just want to move on emotionally, and I don't always care if H is with me. He is still feeling like he's in his alternate universe, feeling totally shitty about himself, and though he's transparent and spending time talking and doing things with me (in what would seem like a "regular" way for a married couple of over 30 years), it's like he's numb. Tries, and doesn't complain about it or even talk about it unless I ask. But it's disheartening for me to feel like what I do or what I am doesn't reach him or make much of a difference in how he feels in life.

Course, I know when he withdraws or if I feel like withdrawing, I'm supposed to go towards him, show affection or whatever, and he does respond--but I wind up feeling like he's doing it just to make me feel better (which is okay, I guess), but I so long to feel like he's reaching out to me, showing affection, etc. cuz HE wants to, HE feels loving feelings, etc.

Maybe it's my paranoia, I know he's never been an outgoing, touchy-feely person, but he was during his cheating years--he says she elicited it from him--why can't he be like that a little around our house?

Boy this is rambling--life really is pretty good for me--love our new life on the West Coast, love my job, love my kids, love being married to H despite all the shit--just not complete somehow. So I'll adjust my expectations--live with what I'm dealt--continue to monitor H's actions--try to enjoy what we have--

Hugs to everyone--hope it's not too much of a downer to hear from an old timer whose life isn't all roses--there really are a lot of roses, just too many thorns. And maybe I was better at ignoring the thorns or just didn't see them before, being a pollyanna-ish optimist at heart despite at the same time being cynical about mankind!


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

there really are a lot of roses, just too many thorns.

Amen to this, Wimsey. It's good to see you again. I am always amazed by your strength. Please drop in more often. You are missed when you're gone.
(((LS))) Antiversaries are tough. I can so relate to wanting to go back to my former self but I doubt that will ever happen for me. Too much knowledge to overcome and process - and to learn from. It's funny you mentioned a bad dream. I had a strange one last night too. I was at a train station with my H and I was running away from him to get on the train but it passed me by and I knew I had to turn back toward my H but it was with caution and hesitation. I'm trying this morning to figure out what this means to me. Oh our psyches struggle daily, don't they?
BTW, I hope you don't mind but I went back to see your recent posts and found one that you responded to on "funhouse mirrors" by DL.
For anyone who hasn't read that thread, it is so interesting. I can copy and paste it if anyone has trouble finding it - it is definitely worth the read.
LH - WHERE ARE YOU?????
I keep hoping to hear from you. How did your move go? Are you settled in? Please drop us a brief note and let us know how you are.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thought I'd go ahead and copy this post by DesertLotus - I think it is incredible and so true of both the WS and the AP. I'd be curious to hear thoughts.
"Infidelity, while on the surface appears to be about two AP's being attracted to each other and giving in to that attraction - isn't about attraction to each other at all. It's an attraction to themselves (or who they thought they became in the affair). None of this was ever a competition between the BS and the OP. The competition was between the WS (who they are) and the 'illusory WS' - the self they became upon having two (or more) lovers. The funhouse mirror in their mind reflected back someone they believed to be flattering. Their flaws melted away, and they became someone they thought they could admire. For brief moments in time, the flawed self would disappear and they could pretend. Each time they 'escaped' themselves this way - the real WS became more flawed and undesirable, little by little they sacrificed more of their dignity, integrity, esteem and sanity just for a glimpse of the 'illusory self' until they were addicted to something that not only didn't exist - but was eating them alive. Self cannibalism all in the name of the 'narcissistic image' they wanted to be and never were.

This is why it isn't about the BS. This is why it is never about the OP. This is why it's so hard for some to 'face reality' - and why some WS's forever run from it.

Infidelity is never love. It's not even infatuation (well, not with the OP anyways - it's an infatuation with the WS's own nonexistent 'imaginary self'). Affairs are a black hole of self greed and phantom self admiration.

The phantom in your head, the phantom that haunts your bed, the phantom starring in the mental movies many BS's have - is really the phantom self the WS was captivated by. The OP provided the mirror the WS paraded in front of and preened for. That's the only role they played. OP's go through the same thing in an affair - who they get 'attached to' isn't their MP. It's their own version of the 'illusory self' they can't let go of. You see, outside of affairland - that person doesn't exist. (Of course we all know it never existed, but try telling a foggy WS or OP that - they won't believe you).

Affairs are all about the self - for both WS's & OP's. It's the 'mirror' they crave. Like Snow White's evil stepmother, their mirror tells them they are the 'fairest in the land' - for a price. Ahhhh, but facing the toll such escapism exacts is so very horrifying, that some just can't bring themselves to do so.

Don't buy into the lie that you weren't good enough, don't buy into the lie that the OP was "all that and a bag of chips", don't buy into the lie that this is your fault, and don't compare yourself to an OP who doesn't amount to more than some sick "prop" in a mental maze of self deception. Don't let your WS's affair warp your own healty self image. You know what reality is - don't let anyone else warp your reality."



D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is my personal favorite of all the posts DL wrote on this thread. It is something I frequently say to my H about the OW. In no way, IMHO, was there real love on either of their parts.
"If I loved someone, I would NEVER want to help them do something they regretted. If I loved someone, I wouldn't want to have them remember me with shame. If I loved someone, I would never want to be the reason their children needed counseling and medication. If I loved someone, I would not destroy his marriage and tell myself 'it was doomed anyways'. If I loved someone, I would never fool myself into thinking that if there is no DDay, no one gets 'hurt'. If I loved someone, I would never put them in a position that forces them to lie about any of our activities together. If I loved someone, I would not want to be a part of anything that would later make them contemplate suicide to escape the guilt of what we had done. If I loved someone, I would not jeopardize their career. If I loved someone, I would not do things with them that are so bad, no one else can know about it. If I loved someone, I would not assist them into financial ruin. If I loved someone, I would not be so selfish that I fooled myself into thinking any of the above things are worth the risk for my own selfish needs.

If I loved myself, I would not enter a relationship with someone who is already committed (I don't share - it is degrading). If I loved myself, I wouldn't 'date' someone I couldn't call at home. If I loved myself, I wouldn't do things I had to lie about. If I loved myself, I wouldn't fool myself into thinking that a man that had to sneak around to see me really cared about me. If I loved myself, I wouldn't convince myself that a few weekly phone calls well after midnight and a few erotic emails during the day followed by sex in a 'pay by the hour' motel is a 'relationship'. If I loved myself, I wouldn't see someone who wasn't willing to take me out in public. If I loved myself, I wouldn't have sex with someone who can't sleep with me in his own bed. If I loved myself, I wouldn't behave in a way that would make me die of shame if my children knew. If I loved myself, I would end an unhappy relationship before beginning another one. If I loved myself, I wouldn't treat others in a way I wouldn't want to be treated. If I loved myself, I would know that anything that costs me my integrity just isn't worth it. If I loved myself, I would know that someone who wants to destroy my integrity does not love me.
Affairs may feel like love sometimes, but if they even come close to love - it isn't any kind of 'healthy love'. I don't believe affairs involve love at all. What affairs do is create an infatuation with 'the feeling' of being desired (lust) and the desperate need to escape something (addiction). While in the addiction, it still 'feels good'. That doesn't mean it is love. It means the addiction is still there (the need to escape). It only feels like love, because in the moment - you don't love yourself enough to 'see reality'.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 12:00 PM, November 24th (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The problem with DL's posts, and I adore her and Mr. DL, is we're not talking LTA there.

But I do agree that the A itself is about the WS, about what's wrong with them, what THE're looking for (self-esteem), I agree it's not love. But to not call it a relationship, is going too far. MY H's OW did have a relationship with him and so did just about everyone here. She had the best relationship of her life and had power too.

Since I know NOTHING of their relationship, I've had to piece together from other people's experiences, other FWS experiences. I have no real idea what went on. No OP to contact. No emails, no letters (except 1) and I don't even know if that was written in the beginning, middle or end of the relationship. But however flawed, they had each other.

He ran to her when we were fighting, when things were going great in his life too (well, except for home). SHE got the first ride in his new truck, heck SHE knew he was buying it before I did. He turned to her when I wasn't "loving" him enough. When I was pursuing my career that he pushed me to do. (And now he wonders why I have no ambition). He set the whole thing up. Sick, vile, toxic, yes, but it was a relationship. H has many such relationships. The one with her just happened to include sex too.

So here I go off to the job he PUSHED me into. And part of my agreement is to not worry about what he's doing home alone. Funny, he always makes sure to leave work on TIME on Monday when he knows I'm gone. Any other day of the week he wouldn't be getting home until 5:30 or later. I took this job specifically so he would realize I CAN let him alone, but it's not working that way.

Oh, gotta go.

Write tomorrow


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Evening tribe. I started to post and then went shopping. I came back to find the ranch kitchen full of gossiping wimmin! And then I got dinner. And then there was more! Crikey, itís cold outside. Iíll just chuck on a couple of logs, if you donít mind. And I could do with a fag, except I gave up 24yrs ago.

She was there 100% for him for that HOLE hour or so.

That did crack me up!!!
*****
When I treat you with love, I love you.

Unfortunately, WH always treated her with love. It didnít matter how he treated me, I became invisible. Then I started to doubt how I felt about him after walking out 5mths before dday when I felt I was getting absolutely no support in any area of the marriage and he was just doing whatever and whenever he chose as if we were nothing much to do with him. A removal of himself, as if he was readying to go. So even his saying he never stopped loving me still has me thinking that I was in the same sort of place as one of the dogs. Always here, always around and reliable. I cannot get my head round it. If I havenít by now, I guess I never will. But an interesting post. FWH just read it and said ďhmmĒ.

Her H sounds like a completely selfish twat.

He is. FWH says he is going to try and talk to him about at least trying. Some sort of arbitration and agreement to keep things on the level for six months or so. I was really biting my tongue as I knew I had something caustic in my mouth. I wanted to spit, ďexcuse me Ė would you have listened to him if he had known about your affair and told you to stop immediately?Ē No he fucking wouldnít. Bet that was one of the reasons he didnít tell anyone. They would all give him the same answer Ė if you want to keep your marriage, your kids, your house, your pension pot, your car, even your lovely DOGS, then donít be so fucking stupid as to think about a)doing it or b) carrying on if itís already started. Who the fuck is he to give advice??!!
*****
That I would just have to accept that there is no trust from his side either and proceed from there.

Back to the point of if he didnít break trust, there would be no need to snoop. If he had nothing to hide, he wouldnít be bothered. Duh! Iíd say just keep doing what you were doing last week, sounds like it was working.
*****
Oh lostsuol. Honestly, we all know where you are right now. Itís finding your inner strength. I thought I had it in my hands not so long ago and then, poof, itís gone. But I know itís still there, that little ball of steel that is my resolve, it is there and I know I am worth more than I give myself credit for. Leastways, Iím better than him. So I stand on my high ground and force myself to ask if he is worthy of me.
*****
Hi wimsey
he says she elicited it from himó

Itís that fantasy again, isnít it? The unreal life, the dream state, the temporary illusion that they are idols. He could be magnanimous with his emotional outpouring because she was mirroring what he wanted to see. But that was not every day life; the humdrum and mundane that keeps cogs turning and lets us know this is reality.

I have suggested that, since UKg2ís fuckwit of a H has moved out, that we should try living together separately (as it is described). He lives in his space, I live in mine (prob with the boys and dog) and we get together a couple of times a week, go on holidays, visit family, etc. It worked quite well for me when DS1,2&3 were young and we lived in that place I hated. He would go off on Sunday pm, come home once in the week, then on Friday night, played rugby on Saturday, chill, garden, chop wood Sunday am and then bugger off again. I had my routine and it worked well. Of course, he could have been having an affair then. I wouldnít know. And thatís another bit of the problem. Has he done this before? Guess Iíll never know now.
*****

there really are a lot of roses, just too many thorns.

Yup. And she is one Rose too fucking far. I hope sheís impaled on the thorns of her own making. She certainly had WH hooked.
*****
The DL post doesnít apply to me. The OW being the ex-gf/fiancťe puts her in a diff category. He was drawn to her because of their history. It would be hard to resist all that intensity and yearning that is youth. She represented all those might-have-beens and he was wondering what he had done with his life. He realised he had not achieved some of those ambitions, but he could still achieve one with her by going back on that path untrod. It was never about me, but it was about them. I still conclude that if I had known early on, he would have gone and we would be Díd. I liken their relationship to a virus attack. In a weakened state, he is vulnerable. And the virus will always be in his heart.

Iíve kept the other ďif I loved someoneĒ post. I just think of MOW and wonder how she could carry on, knowing how much he had hurt her before, how he was willing to just walk away, how he just said what she wanted to hear. He only did what she demanded and then only up to a point. He never gave himself to her. How could she want someone who was just a role player in her life? But she really thought he would leave me, she really thought he couldnít bear life without her, she really thought he loved her. And he did, he just loved me and this family more. Thatís why she was so broken, she couldnít understand his behaviour of continually reeling her in when he wasnít committed in the long term. Well, other than the five years it went on for. O, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive! Mind you, I reckon he got better as the years went by ÖÖ..
*****

Funny, he always makes sure to leave work on TIME on Monday when he knows I'm gone.

Okay, weepy. Have you tried my tactic? If he lies, he lies to himself cos I donít believe him anyway. I simply put myself into this strange place which somehow throws it back to him. I will not be affected. AND, if I suspect heís off seeing some OW or worse, HER again, he is history. Seriously. And Iíve made that very, very clear.
*****
And umm, LostH has forgotten her password. And, I guess, which email sheís used!! So she may materialise as someone else. Watch this space!


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi 25, it is good to see you.

This quote really hurt my heart: Maybe it's my paranoia, I know he's never been an outgoing, touchy-feely person, but he was during his cheating years--he says she elicited it from him--why can't he be like that a little around our house?

Does he know you feel that way? Cause if he does and he isn't making the effort for you it makes me want to put a boot in his ass. Sorry for the vulgarity.

***********
I also have to agree with Weepy that I don't think DL's thoughts necessarily apply to a LTA. There was clearly a relationship there, not a healthy one I would agree, but a relationship nonetheless.
**********

LostHeart, where are you?********

Shirley, are you talking about the "did I love my spouse during my affair thread?"

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 9:34 PM, November 24th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF and Lostsoul, I've been having some freaky dreams, too. I'm surprised at times at how badly they affect me.

LostS, what kind of therapies have you tried for depression?

No real word on my sons, yet. Littler son is having a battery of heart tests tomorrow to rule that out. So still waiting. Thanks for the concern.


D-day 7/29/04.

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