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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's II
LostatSea4
♀ Member
Member # 21497
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, December 10th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you LC for responding!!


R takes not one but two!
BS-me WS-him
Too many to talk about.

Posts: 992 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: SE
OlderAndWiser
♀ Member
Member # 21909
Default  Posted: 6:07 PM, December 10th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here are my thoughts around what I must have in my primary relationship. Opnions about saying this to my WS during MC next week? I've thought about it and tried to narrow it down to the basic things I must have/expect in a relationship.

My relationship will include only two people.
If you choose to remain in a relationship with me, you will cut all ties with Xxxxx immediately. This includes any contact or connection or action initiated by you, including email, text, phone, letters via mail, visits to her MySpace or Facebook page (or any other internet thing you share some kind of connection over), in person contact, verbal messages/notes/letters via another person, asking other people about her, driving by her workplace or home, pictures you’ve saved, copies of emails/notes/letters, etc. If in doubt, either talk to me about it or don’t do it.

My relationship will be with someone who is honest and forthcoming at all times.
You’ve already hurt me as badly as you can by betraying my trust in you and giving emotional and physical intimacy that should belong to me to someone else. Being upfront and honest about what happened puts us on even ground. This is the only thing that is fair to both of us as we decided if we want to continue or discontinue our relationship. Being forthcoming includes telling me or showing me immediately any contact or connection or action taken by Xxxxx, or any accidental contact or connection that may occur. Anything you are hiding now or hide in the future will further hurt our chances of repairing the damage your choice to have an affair has made to an already fragile relationship.

My relationship will be with someone who owns their ‘stuff’ and actively works on the things they can and should change.
If you choose to remain in a relationship with me, you will find a therapist and begin individual therapy immediately. I will no longer wait for you to think about your problems and try to figure out solutions by yourself or with the help of friends. I have watched you try to fix your stuff by yourself for as long as I can, and it has not made things any better – in fact they are worse.

My relationship will be with someone as loyal to me as I am to them.
I have never cheated on you emotionally or physically. I expect the same from you.

My relationship will be with someone I have fun with.
This is already true in our relationship. If you choose to stay in our relationship, I promise to do my part not to lose this great thing that we already have!

My relationship will be with someone with whom I share goals & plans for the future.
I am willing to put this on hold while we each work through our own stuff and together we work through our couples stuff.

[This message edited by OlderAndWiser at 6:11 PM, December 10th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 52 | Registered: Dec 2008
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, December 10th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OlderAndWiser -

Your list is certainly a fair one, especially since it reflects what you need for the relationship to survive. I would suggest a couple of additional minor things.

pictures you’ve saved, copies of emails/notes/letters, etc

You many want to amend this to add "when discovered". Since A's are hidden activity, a lot of things get buried in hidden computer folders and other locations to "keep them safe". It is entirely possible for someone to stumble upon something months later. If he thinks this was his one and only chance and that there will be negative consequences if he shows you something he uncovers at a later date, he'll hide it rather than fess up to missing it and getting rid of it that moment.

you will find a therapist and begin individual therapy immediately

Be more specific than immediately, which can be interpreted. If you expect he will find a therapist by next Monday, say that. Within one week? Say that.

My relationship will be with someone as loyal to me as I am to them.
I have never cheated on you emotionally or physically. I expect the same from you.

This one's tough. He's already unable to meet that isn't he. You have never been unfaithful. He has. So he can never say that he never cheated on you. It's probably better to say that you expect him to remain in a totally monogamous relationship with you from this point forward, and that any future A will be the end of the relationship with you.

Finally the big one. You don't state the consequences. The requirements are no good if you have not made it clear what will happen if he breaks any of these. You'll throw him out? You will S? You will D? Set your consequences, and then hold to them.

Again, you should consider reaching out for BS feedback as well in General. I think you'll get some pretty solid guidance there.

Best of luck in this effort. He may cringe at shutting down all contact, but it's the right thing to help him move in a healthier direction.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
OlderAndWiser
♀ Member
Member # 21909
Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, December 10th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response. I will make a few edits based on your advice and repost in general. Funny, your comment about the line saying that he will be loyal - I removed a clause at the end that said '...from this point forward.' I will add it back!

Posts: 52 | Registered: Dec 2008
brokendreamz
♀ Member
Member # 18436
Default  Posted: 1:22 AM, December 11th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If a WS is truly remorseful - why would their behavior not reflect this?

I know my WH loves me. He claims that he wants to remain married. Yet he does the absolute minimum. I have expressed precisely what I am looking for - and still nothing.

From a WS point of view - did you want to comfort the BS or did you view the BS as demanding? How did you find balance?


Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: SouthEast
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, December 11th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

From a WS point of view - did you want to comfort the BS or did you view the BS as demanding? How did you find balance?

Wow brokendreamz! Your question forced me into some reflection on my journey.

The reality is this effort is a balancing act between clearly stating needs, and delivering consequences when they are not met. My BW made clear what her needs and expectations were along the way. She was also clear about dealbreakers and that she was willing to kick me out if she had to. Past history with her gave me the knowledge that she would follow through on consequences, which in turn made it easier for me to change.

I may not have agreed with every "requirement" she gave me along the way, but I did not view it as demanding. More a statement of fact - this is how things are and what has to happen.

When I've observed prolonged periods of time here from others where their WS did the minimum and was not making progress, it has most often been accompanied by no consequences. The same circular arguments take place:

BS - "I need A, B and C."

WS - "OK, I'll change."

*A week later*

BS - "You did A, but not B and C."

WS - "Ok, I'll change."

The full change doesn't happen because there are no consequences of not complying. The big switch that slammed the door on my fog was one night when there were calls from a work colleague who lived in the same city as xMOW. The calls were during the day, but also during off hours (nights and weekends). The colleague was a mentor for me at work and was going through a rough time in the business (she has since been laid off), and I was helping her through that. In order to clear the tension and concern from my BW, I needed to prove that the number belonged to the work colleague. It took me a few hours plowing through company directories until I found the one with her cell in it. I finally did, and have since accelerated my efforts to deliver the maximum I can instead of part of the effort.

I went through this effort not because I felt it was a demand from my BW, but because I knew if I could not prove that the calls were not xMOW, there would be very real consequences. Consequences are a terrific motivator, but only when they are clear and consistently done.

So the question back to you brokendreamz is what consequences are there for your WS not doing what you need? And how are they being enforced?


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
maddy
♀ Member
Member # 21812
Default  Posted: 9:28 PM, December 11th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i haven't seen this question before, but i apologize if someone else posted it and i didn't see it.

WS and FWS:
about 6 months ago i had found a sort of pro and con list about the OW and on it said in big bold letters 'amazing sex' in the pro side. obviously this tore me apart, b/c of course i wonder if she was better and right there is the answer. i guess the question is for those of you that have felt the sex was better w/ the OP was it b/c it really was better or b/c something was lacking w/ your SO? i'm so afraid of being intimate now b/c that reel is running thru my head - she's amazing, she's better, i can't measure up. its a difficult topic for me that i haven't yet approached my WBF with yet. i'm afraid of the answer. i'm also afraid he'll say he never meant it but really did. IDK i hope this makes sense.


Posts: 475 | Registered: Nov 2008
caribou
♀ Member
Member # 21852
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, December 13th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS Question:

Background: WS moved out about 2 months ago and has been staying with friends while seeing Ow. In a few days I'm going overseas on 2 weeks holiday and the house will be empty. WS is going to be staying here for those 2 weeks.

I've been reading Not Just Friends and it's on my bedside table.

So should I leave it there - he could either pick it up and read it and maybe learn something or think 'my wife is crazy reading self help books'.

Or put it away so he doesn't see what I'm reading and leave him to find his own process.

I'm planning on deleting the comp history before I go so he doesn't see any of my stuff on SI or track my email etc.

Thanks in advance for any answers to this question!!


Me- BS 40 yrs
D-Day 29 Sept 08

"When dealing with a cake-eater you close the bakery" - Catwoman


Posts: 481 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Melbourne, Australia
brokendreamz
♀ Member
Member # 18436
Default  Posted: 11:15 PM, December 13th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi LC & thank you!!

So the question back to you brokendreamz is what consequences are there for your WS not doing what you need? And how are they being enforced?


You are 100% right - there truly aren't any consequences. Uh OH - I need to really think about this. This is making my stomach turn - because in essence - if I don't enforce real consequences then I deserve whatever he dishes out.


DUH - I have the same problem with my kids.

I get it - I know my H & kids love me - they just don't respect me. And it is MY fault.


Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: SouthEast
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

caribou -

So should I leave it there - he could either pick it up and read it and maybe learn something or think 'my wife is crazy reading self help books'.

I don't see any harm in leaving the book there. I'm not sure whether your WS will read any of it. But in the best case he will, in the worst case he'll dismiss it and continue his current path. In neither case is it any worse for you.

I say leave it there and see what happens...


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
shouldofasked
♀ New Member
Member # 21940
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question I need some of you to answer for me. My husband had an EA (not PA he says) in March 2008. What I know is there were alot of phone calls between them from Februaary till I found out in March. After I found out I packed his clothes two days later because he was blameing me for what he had done and I was angry and refussed to take the blame. We have three kids who did not handle him being gone very well and I asked him to come back. He did but acted as if he hated me for about three weeks. He would not call me from work as he had always done and I begged him too and he began coming home from work 2-3 hours late drunk and he had never done this. We been married 13 years and it was so out of character for him. When I did my 180 he decided he loved me and could not loose me. Why did he treat me the way he did and why did he decide all of a sudden he loves me. Did any of ya'll do this and if so why? He has no explanation other than he was a fool.


LoveHurts

Posts: 7 | Registered: Dec 2008
caribou
♀ Member
Member # 21852
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks LC. That's what my instincts were, just wanted some confirmation.

You seem to be the only fWS replying to us BS's... thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom and experience with us. I really appreciate that.


Me- BS 40 yrs
D-Day 29 Sept 08

"When dealing with a cake-eater you close the bakery" - Catwoman


Posts: 481 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Melbourne, Australia
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 5:46 PM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

shouldofasked -

Why did he treat me the way he did and why did he decide all of a sudden he loves me. Did any of ya'll do this and if so why?

The initial reaction was his foggy brain which he had allowed to convince himself that his M was miserable and that he deserved better. It's pretty common as a defense mechanism inside a WS who is trying to justify their actions to themselves.

The turnaround was because being hit with consequences for your actions is like the proverbial bucket of ice water being thrown on you. It wakes you up to the reality you are in and the impact of your actions. That's why the turnaround happens.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

caribou - replies from most of us come in spurts. I happen to be the one that's picked up on these at the moment. But there are scores of other fine FWS's who respond quite a bit. A lot is based on situations and background.

Maddy - I didn't ignore your question. My A was an EA only, so I can't directly relate to your question. I'm sure one of the other FWS's will be able to pop in early this week and provide some insight.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 8:18 PM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

maddy,

WS and FWS:
about 6 months ago i had found a sort of pro and con list about the OW and on it said in big bold letters 'amazing sex' in the pro side. obviously this tore me apart, b/c of course i wonder if she was better and right there is the answer. i guess the question is for those of you that have felt the sex was better w/ the OP was it b/c it really was better or b/c something was lacking w/ your SO? i'm so afraid of being intimate now b/c that reel is running thru my head - she's amazing, she's better, i can't measure up. its a difficult topic for me that i haven't yet approached my WBF with yet. i'm afraid of the answer. i'm also afraid he'll say he never meant it but really did. IDK i hope this makes sense.

I am sorry you are hurting. Yes, it makes sense.

you want to know, but you don't want to know and at the same time, you don't want him to lie about what he really thought about it at that time.

This is a very difficult and sensitive subject to talk about. From my observation, we can categorize into 2 different groups, one is sex with xOP was good and became addictive, and the other one is sex with xOP was not good, but once they crossed the line, xOP was willing participant and go back again and again. And then of course, once crossed the line emotionally, it adds dynamic and complicates matters.

ONS maybe a second group.

In my case was fist group with emotional, and my sexual relationship with xOM was addictive. He was much younger than myself and totally opposite than my H. I made xOM up as a fantasy dream guy. As more I turned xOM on, it made me feel like I can be someoen else that I am not in real life. XOM didn't care if I was satisfied, and he only cared about himself and his needs.

It took me 1 year to He-tox from my system (I became asexual/ low sex drive) and then I was able to love H as a new man. We are 150% reconciled.

Hope this helps.


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
maddy
♀ Member
Member # 21812
Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks beach!

i did end up asking him about it. he admitted that at the time he just wanted a f**k and that's what he got. he said it was different but not better. i know better than to ask this b/c even if it was better w/ OW he can't say that to me w/out destroying me. and if he says it wasn't i won't believe him anyway. catch-22. i just hate this. i know he's trying to be transparent b/c he's answering everything i ask. i just wonder if those details are really necessary. anyways, thanks for answering and giving another perspective.


Posts: 475 | Registered: Nov 2008
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:47 PM, December 14th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

maddy,
I am glad he has been transparent with you.

i just wonder if those details are really necessary.
I would say each BS deals differently, some like to know the all details, and some of them only like to know the facts only. So it is up to you to decide how much you want to know. You can always tell him to stop when it is harder for you to handle.

Good luck with your R journey!!


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
LostatSea4
♀ Member
Member # 21497
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why if the OP keeps lying to you, and you as the WS knows they keep lying, you don't trust them and it causes you so much stress, Why do you keep going back?

OW has been caught in more lies, some she can't get out of. Treats him terribly but yet they still manage to go back. I don't understand why a WS would keep going back to this stuff. A normal person wouldn't.


R takes not one but two!
BS-me WS-him
Too many to talk about.

Posts: 992 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: SE
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostatSea4

Why if the OP keeps lying to you, and you as the WS knows they keep lying, you don't trust them and it causes you so much stress, Why do you keep going back?
OW has been caught in more lies, some she can't get out of. Treats him terribly but yet they still manage to go back. I don't understand why a WS would keep going back to this stuff. A normal person wouldn't.
You are right... Because they have an unhealthy mind set, not mentaly healthy person (In the sense, not a normal person)

When a person gets addicted to a person (OP), even though the OP has a bad personality, WSs only worried about getting the fix (sex or meeting). WSs know that OP is not good for them, but they cannot cut off the end.

WS is like an addtict, OP is the choice of drug. That is why cold turkey treatment (NC) is must, in order to de-tox from the WSs' system.

Hope this makes sense.


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostatSea -

Why do you keep going back?

An A is an addiction. No matter how bad the hurt the OP creates is, they offset it with equally strong words of validation that the WS craves. It's the same as knowing that doing drugs will damage your body. Yet the high they give is so powerful you keep going back for more.

One minor adjustment to your wording. The FWS's I know, just like other addicts I know, are perfectly normal people. Their behavior is not due to them being normal or abnormal. It's due to the addiction being stronger than their will to fight the addiction.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
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