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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's II
Frogger
♀ Member
Member # 15442
Default  Posted: 2:54 PM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been in R with FWH for a bit now. One thing I have trouble understanding in both him and in other FWS.

Why is there such hatred for the BS of your AP? My FWH apologized to him, feels bad about what he did, but he still seems to hate him. He seems to get a kick anytime he is able to "one up" the OW's BH. I find it very confusing.

For example a few weeks ago I let FWH drive my new sports car--the one I got when we got rid of the car the OW had been in. Anyway FWH happened to drive past OW's BH. He came home incredibly excited and almost "high" because OW's BH had seen him in the fancy new car and the BH was just driving "that little beat up truck."

I find this soooo upsetting and I want to understand it better. When I ask him he says its because OW's BH treated me bad and called me crazy. But I think its more than that.

Okay enough rambling! LOL!


Love isn't enough, you need respect and trust. -Jimi40

Posts: 2296 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Florida
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frogger -

Why is there such hatred for the BS of your AP?

Remember that when engaged in an A, the WS has deluded themselves into thinking that their BS mistreats them and is at the root of all of their marital problems. Unless my A was way different than others, they then share this view with the AP to gain sympathy for themselves and to get ego stroking in return. So the only view the WS has been given is all the bad stuff the AP's BS does to them. If one were to believe just what the WS says, their BS nags, is never satisfied, is angry, is abusive (verbally and/or physically), withholds intimacy, ignores the WS, etc. So naturally, the AP thinks this person is awful, and hates to see the one they care about be put through that hurt from their BS.

In reality, it's not true. But the people in the A can only go off of what they say to each other - their own foggy distorted version of the truth.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Frogger
♀ Member
Member # 15442
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LC-I 100% get what you are saying.

But at this point my FWH knows logically that the OW was lying about her BH's treatment of her. He knows the BH personally as well (Former Coworker).

I see on the Wayward board as well. Even when the WS is "out of the fog" they still seem to hate the BS of their AP.

Where does that hatred come from?


Love isn't enough, you need respect and trust. -Jimi40

Posts: 2296 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Florida
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frogger,

Each FWS is different.

As for me, I didn't hate her, It was rather in my foggy twisted FWW's mindset then, I was somehow, trying to be competitive…. I was not trying to get back xOM, It was more like showing off my status how I am better than her ....
And wanted to feel the empowernment. If I had this talent/stuffs that she doesn't have, it made me feel better, kind of feeling.

Wasn't there saying "Revenge is having a successful life….?" or something like that?

That's not true anymore for me, because I have let xOM go from my life. Sounds like your H hasn't completely let xOW and A go…...?

[This message edited by beach at 7:38 PM, December 15th (Monday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
hurtbutstrong
♀ Member
Member # 21830
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There are times I just need/want to understand why the need to have an A. IF things are as bad as WS think...due to the fog...why not talk to your spouse? Why troll around the internet or some other place for someone else? Why not try to fix what WS perceives as broken?

Also, why is it so easy for the WS to just walk away from it all and not care what burdens they have put on their BS? I know....the fog. Still boggles the mind. I can't understand just walking away from the home to live wherever.

I also don't get how the WS can enjoy the AP moreso than their own child. Why ignore the child once moved out? The child didn't do anything. Why play the martyr yet again and think staying away lessens the pain for the child? It doesn't.

Ok, sorry. Just had a bunch of questions that I'd love a WS to try and make me understand in some way. I have never thought to take the path to an A and sometimes I struggle to understand things I may never understand.


BS-39
XH-41
DS-10

Posts: 296 | Registered: Nov 2008
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 8:31 PM, December 15th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hurtbutstrong,

IF things are as bad as WS think...due to the fog...why not talk to your spouse? Why troll around the internet or some other place for someone else? Why not try to fix what WS perceives as broken?

because, it is a combination of cowardance, conflict avoindance, and selfishness. Tried to seek for external validation......


Also, why is it so easy for the WS to just walk away from it all and not care what burdens they have put on their BS?
Because it is easier to give up than dealing with head on. It comes back to selfishness.


Why ignore the child once moved out? The child didn't do anything. Why play the martyr yet again and think staying away lessens the pain for the child? It doesn't.

You are right, the kids are inocent party, they don't deserve to be abandoned by the father's addiction.

Again, those FWS who left home is a conflict avoider, staying away is easier than dealing it like a grown up man.

I have never thought to take the path to an A and sometimes I struggle to understand things I may never understand.
You are right, you may never understand the WS's mindset during A. If he is still with OW, then he is still pretty much in the A addictive relationship and creating the fantasy land and escaping form the reality.

When a person becomes addicted to a person, it makes him/her feel like have to have or to have connected with OP 24/7. More addictive stage sets in deeper, the more isolating themselves and continuing the addictive relationship or affair life from the rest of the world.

I hope this helps.

[This message edited by beach at 8:36 PM, December 15th (Monday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
hurtbutstrong
♀ Member
Member # 21830
Default  Posted: 5:25 AM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Beach, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I was having a rough time last night and those questions just kept coming up.

I pretty much knew the selfishness and avoidance aspect. It is just a struggle sometimes.

Again, thank you beach!!


BS-39
XH-41
DS-10

Posts: 296 | Registered: Nov 2008
Frogger
♀ Member
Member # 15442
Default  Posted: 7:03 AM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Beach,

You post made me a little nervous so I talked to FWH about OW's BH last night. In summary he did (does?) still blame her BH in part for the A. At one point he said "If he had been paying more attention to her this wouldn't have happened."

I was a bit shocked because we have come so far. We talked about it and I think that logically he knows OW was lying (he even said that) but I think on some level he blames her BH because that was how it all started. She would complain about her BH and my FWH would try to help her deal with that.

He still holds a lot of anger towards her BH. I told him that felt to me like OW blaming me for the A.

He said he knows she lied about everything else so why wouldn' she lie about this. And I pointed out several examples where her BH obviously was giving her "attention" and she twisted it into something negative.

Again he gets it in his head and can say all the right stuff. But I am still upset because I can feel that he still feels like she "suffered" in her marriage and that if her BH had done this or that she wouldn't have been looking elsewhere. Which as we all know isn't true.

Arrggg.


Love isn't enough, you need respect and trust. -Jimi40

Posts: 2296 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Florida
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IF things are as bad as WS think...due to the fog...why not talk to your spouse? Why troll around the internet or some other place for someone else? Why not try to fix what WS perceives as broken?

I'll offer a slightly different take than Beach. For me, it wasn't an overnight thing. Not like "oh, today I think I'll get myself an OW" kind of thing. It was more gradual and hidden than that.

For me, the atmosphere that opened the door to my choice was born from isolation, poor communication and addiction. I travel quite a bit for my job, and spend a good number of nights alone in a hotel room. There's only so much time you can spend working after hours, so I would start to surf the net looking for a way to occupy my time. Guess which sites make themselves easy to find for folks in that situation. AM, AFF, and the one I was on to name a few. It starts with a few "innocent chats" between people trying to kill time and builds in it's destructive nature.

So why not call home? Because my BW was saddled with four kids as in effect a single parent while I was on the road. The last thing she had time for was to "chit chat" to keep me company during the evening, and later on after the kids went to bed she was exhausted from working so hard. None of this was her fault. These were simply the conditions that opened to door for me.

I can't understand just walking away from the home to live wherever.

Now that I'm in my right mind, I don't understand my own actions let alone those of others. But in my fog, I was drawn very strongly to the addiction I had to my xMOW. In the fantasy of an A, you shut out the reality of the world around you. I not only was walking away from my family and home, I walked away from my job, hobbies, everything. The A was a maniacal focus to feed the addiction I had. Logic took a back seat at the time.

I also don't get how the WS can enjoy the AP moreso than their own child.

Kids are a disruption and break in the focus of the A. They blow up the perception of a carefree, happy go lucky life with your soulmate In order to preserve the illusion and keep the positive feedback and validation coming, you have to shed all responsibility. Responsibility to your BS. Responsibility to your kids. Responsibility to your job. You cast it all aside in order to get your fix, no matter what it takes. In hindsight, I was an awful father even in the time leading up to the A because I checked out of the family and was not focused on what they needed from me. It was a very dark time in my life.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Frogger))) I am sorry and yes, I also think that he still holds a lot of anger and blame towards her BH. When you told him that felt to you like OW blaming you for the A, what did he say to that? Please remind him that it is time for him to let that go. They are no longer in his problem. It is theirs and that indifference is powerful than anger. I know that in the SWIRL grieving process, rage (anger) stage is one stage before let go, so I think he is reaching to let go stage…. Letting go also means focusing on your side of the equation. As long as he is focusing on you, and hopefully he will let go and reach to the indifferent stage. Is he in IC?


Hurtbutstrong, you are welcome and I am glad LC also chimed in here, because each FWS is different.

[This message edited by beach at 11:00 AM, December 16th (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
hurtbutstrong
♀ Member
Member # 21830
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LC, thank you too for your perspective. I really appreciate it.

Due to his job, my WS as well was away from home a lot. I know he sometimes felt like an outsider but he never tried to jump in either. As you said, "you checked out of your family" my WS did too. In reflecting on things, I saw that he did that prior to me feeling in my gut that OW was involved.

I'm really getting to finally understand that there is such an attraction/addiction to the other person. I didn't "get it" before. The OW is different from me as well. I guess that is what makes it exciting.

Again, thank you so much for replying. I love this place.


BS-39
XH-41
DS-10

Posts: 296 | Registered: Nov 2008
Frogger
♀ Member
Member # 15442
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Beach,

He "says" all the right things. When I told him how I felt he said "I understand and I know it is not fair" He also "says" he doesn't care about them anymore, that he doesn't think about them, he is indifferent to them....

I asked for a D at the end of the summer and he went through a HUGE rage at the OW while we were separated. He said part of it was that she wasn't suffering the way he was. At the time he had lost EVERYTHING and she was still living her merry life. Before that rage he professed indifference to her.

He also said he kept back from being angry at her because no matter what she did HE was responsible for what he did to our marriage. If HE had held firm nothing she did would have mattered.

I hope this means he is reaching indifference to OW's BH. I remember reading the SWIRL stuff when you posted it and at the time I was focused on his emotions about OW.

I've been thinking all day about why this is important to me. I think its because to me it seems like she is still the "victim" and her BH the scapegoat. While FWH KNOWS she manipulated things he somehow gives her a pass because she had it rough. He takes all the blame for the A with our marriage, but he blames her BH for her A? Huh?

Arrgg. When he sits down with me and discusses it he sees that I had it way tougher than her--and that is even if we believe EVERYTHING she complained about.

Okay so here is my question--how can he logically see the truth but still emotionally believe the lies? Or more important how do we get him to emotionally see the truth. Or should I let it go? He is crazy about me again and he wants to just forget about OW and BH.


Love isn't enough, you need respect and trust. -Jimi40

Posts: 2296 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Florida
hurtbs
♀ Member
Member # 10866
Default  Posted: 6:43 PM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Could a FWS please read my post in Reconciliation? I really want/need some FWS responses

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=268042&AP=21


Me BW Him XSAWH
DDays - 1 was too many
Divorced 2012

"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate." - Asimov
"Be patient and tough; someday this pain will be useful to you." - Ovid


Posts: 15133 | Registered: Jun 2006
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 11:33 PM, December 16th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Frogger)))

You mentioned that BH was your H's co-worker. Were they buddy pre A?

He takes all the blame for the A with our marriage, but he blames her BH for her A? Huh?

Sounds like, he has to go through the 2 grieving process, first with xMOW and the next with BH (co-worker relationship).

how can he logically see the truth but still emotionally believe the lies? Or more important how do we get him to emotionally see the truth.
He sounds like he must have been stuck in the internalizing and rage stage with 2 relationships and somewhat confused himself. He needs to let the both of them go, so he can have a life with you without the ghost of xMOW and BH in your M.

He is crazy about me again and he wants to just forget about OW and BH.
Letting go means focusing on your side of the equation. Please remind him that he shouldn't waste his thought and energy on them.


Is your H in IC?

I do hope that he will come out of the other side soon!!! Sending you positive thoughs!!

You can PM me anytime!!


hurtbs, I responded to your thread.

[This message edited by beach at 11:36 PM, December 16th (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
LostatSea4
♀ Member
Member # 21497
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, December 17th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Found out yesterday that WS is still talking/seeing OW even after she lied/cheated on him, one of her man friends left threatening phone calls on our house Friday pm, etc. I told him he likes to be treated like shit that why he has no self respect and keeps going back. He knows this but doesn't stop.

I can always tell when he starts talking to her again because he is a different person, very distant, hardly talks to me and very defensive. I can't say anything to him about a problem I am having without him defensive even if it's not about him.

To say the least I am extremely pissed. I have been pretty much ignoring him or making very little conversation the last few days. Last night he called me a bitch with an attitude because I am usually a nice person and never get mad.

In myself I feel a little better with the distance so it doesn't hurt so bad, however is this actually a wake up call for a WS or is it pushing them away farther?

[This message edited by LostatSea4 at 11:21 AM, December 17th (Wednesday)]


R takes not one but two!
BS-me WS-him
Too many to talk about.

Posts: 992 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: SE
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, December 17th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostatSea -

In myself I feel a little better with the distance so it doesn't hurt so bad, however is this actually a wake up call for a WS or is it pushing them away farther?

I think you need to look at the impact of the outcome in both directions, and what your actions should be. If this is a wake up call, then your WS will turn themselves around and start working hard and blaming you less for their woes. If it drives them away, then allowing their actions to continue without changing your actions continues your struggle.

In the end, from what you describe both paths require the same action from you - a 180. If you 180 your WS and they are snapping out of it, they will work their tail off to build your trust and you can gradually back down as a reward for those good behaviors. If they continue their foggy behavior, the 180 makes you a stronger person in standing up to them and forcing them to be accountable for their choices.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
rosieposy
♀ New Member
Member # 21977
Default  Posted: 5:51 PM, December 17th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a Q for WS only,can a PA really just be PA? My husband says that through his 4 month A, he never spoke of love, he had no feelings for her and NC was no problem. When I caught him, he followed me out of the room and never looked back. He also can't remember how it started, is this possible? He told me the first day they saw each other (former co-worker) and how it just happened, but he can't remember what was said, this was January 2008. I caught him May 2008.He has done a 180 change which is really nice but, at the same time it makes me wonder what kind of man did I marry? He could easily sleep with someone who meant nothing to him! He blames himself completely and says he felt unappreciated (he says he now realizes it was all in his mind, because of lack of communication). He said she did tell him loving things but that he never felt anything towards her and that what she said never made him feel any better either he never said anything back because she wasn't me. Please shed some light on this and I keep reading about a "fog" but he never had one, which confuses me even more.
Thanks in advance for your responses.


BS (me)32 WS (him)35
OW 24
Married 14 yrs together 16 yrs
Divorced since 1-1-09
DDay 5-7-08, Lifes not so Rosy anymore

Posts: 17 | Registered: Dec 2008
1DLW
♀ Member
Member # 21971
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, December 18th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

rosieposy
I think a PA can definitely be just a PA. It is especially more common for men than women, but as a woman my PAs were just that.
I think some mind sets make it easy for some of us to separate sex and love.
For most people those two things go together, but not for all


WS 42

Posts: 483 | Registered: Dec 2008
LostatSea4
♀ Member
Member # 21497
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, December 18th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LC

Thanks for all your advice lately, you have been a tremendous help. I wish my WS was as far along as you. He finally sees it's a bad place to be but can't stop the addiction and no matter what I do I can't make him.

However, Wed. night is bowling with OW night and he usually stays with her and he didn't. Not sure if it's the 180, time will tell.

If I don't need more advice before then, have a great holiday with your family. You deserve it.


R takes not one but two!
BS-me WS-him
Too many to talk about.

Posts: 992 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: SE
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, December 18th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Rosieposy,
Each FWS is different. I am 2 years out FWW. Mine was LT PA and I can only remember what I wore or I we did, but not what was said. Yes, many FWS could engage in sexual relationship without having any feelings. Some have sexual abuse history, thus they can detach any emotion during the sex act.
It is hard to believe that he cannot remember how it started, but it is probably his ability to compartmentalize (put in the box) the bad memories and shove into the closet, like trying to forget things. Is your H in IC (individual counseling)? I think, he needs to look himself into deeper and try to figure out why he went outside of M, or needed external validation and see if he has any FOO (family of orgin) issue, such as abandonment, abuse, or codependency. Maybe he had to act certain way to get his parents' approvals. He needs to find his why, otherwise, his core problem will resurface and he will slip back into unhealthy coping patterns and may have another one.

Hope this helps. Hang in there.

Lostatsea,
I am glad your 180 is working on him.


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
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