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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's II
brokenbutstrong2
♀ Member
Member # 22446
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, January 15th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess in the back of my mind, I think him seeing me upset will just make him think of it more. I think I am nuts...ugh.

Posts: 86 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: USA
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, January 15th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokenbutstrong2:

He says he doesn't remember it bc of the amount of guilt and shame associated with the sex. Can that be true?

If it was just one time, he should remember it.. For me, after deleting all of xOM's text and email messages, it is very difficult for me to remember conversations and things have to pop into my head at random times, and I do tell my husband at those times.

But then, I'm like that w/ most people - I can be talking to my best friend and for weeks later, things will pop up and only then will I remember, oh yeah, I wanted to tell H about such-and-such.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, January 15th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

2muchhurt:

Can anyone tell me what the OM said to them to attract you a WW to the affair? What attracted YOU to OM?

(Did you get my PM?)

Although there are similarities in all affairs, each individual case is different. In my case, I pursued the xOM. If you are certain that he was the pursuer, I would guess that it's the usual - validation, flattery, excitement.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
truetrainwreck
Member
Member # 21520
Default  Posted: 3:41 PM, January 15th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wrote about this on another forum, but I would like some insight from WS's. My H is constantly want validation of my love for him. But I'm the betrayer. He is. I think he has more to prove than me. But I bust my butt trying. Now I'm not saying I don't have my moments. But for the most part, I've tried to be the woman of his dreams. Anything he ask I do. But he doesn't do the same. He avoids me. Says he can't speak to me and really does nothing special for me. He always has excuses (pain, depression, work, etc) But there was excuses before A reasons why I didn't get attention from him. Should I be concerned? Now he says he loves me but he doesn't back it up with actions. The A was the only thing that I have ever seen my H devoted to with no excuses. Could he still be in love with OW? Why can't he be with me completely?

Posts: 97 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Kentucky
redvixen
♀ Member
Member # 15259
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, January 15th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I also have a question fo WS's. Is it possible for a WS who has cheated on several occasions, not necessarily with the same woman, to ever really change? Can a serial WS ever really stop the behavior?

(and I hate to say this, truetrainwreck, but that's the behavior my H was doing when I found out about this latest woman.)


Me, BS Him WS early 40's at the start, cheated before and after cancer diagnosis.
Two A's, two OW's, online looking for sex partners, two false R's.
Threw him out in January 2009.
Divorce final March 30th, 2010

XWH died Dec. 2010


Posts: 4104 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: New Jersey
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, January 16th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

truetrainwreck -

Could he still be in love with OW? Why can't he be with me completely?

He could be distracted by feelings for OW. But it's more likely there is a larger issue at stake.

Is your WH in IC? Because if my hunch is right, the way to repair the issue has to come through working on a problem that likely both caused the A to become a choice for him as well as your concerns about the lack of "investment" by him in the M.

The telling statement you make is:

My H is constantly want validation of my love for him.

He is unable to find any confidence in himself as a person. During an A, the OP validates the WS by showering them with terms of affection, verifying they are physically attractive to them, etc. When a person who needs external validation (as I did at the time) shuts off contact with the OP, they will frequently turn to their BS looking for validation from them. The problem is that in reality, no one can give someone else constant positive feedback 24/7/365. And when it breaks down, the person with no self esteem takes the easy way out and starts looking to another place for validation.

The solution is to work in IC to find a place where as an individual, you know you are a good and valuable person. That you don't need someone else to tell you that constantly. It was clearly unhealthy to go outside the M for validation, but it's really no healthier to place that responsibility on the BS either. However, it is a major weakness and takes a good bit of work to change course and validate yourself.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, January 16th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

redvixen -

Is it possible for a WS who has cheated on several occasions, not necessarily with the same woman, to ever really change? Can a serial WS ever really stop the behavior?

While I don't directly relate to "serial cheating", I have a great deal of confidence that in most cases, a WS can change. There may be a population of people who are truly so broken that no amount of effort will change them. These people basically appear as "players" over time. xMOW is an example in my case. I'm not sure any amount of IC and effort will change the way she views the world.

With that said, for the rest of the population that can change, the requirement is that the weakness within the person is identified and eliminated through developing better social skills. In my case, I needed to develop a stronger opinion of myself so I would no longer need others to tell me I was a good person. I needed to look at my passive aggressive way of coping with confrontation and challenge, and shift to being more open when I disagreed with someone. I needed to agree that it was better to tackle a problem head on than to bury my head in the sand and pretend it didn't exist. IC helped me do this (along with a good deal of reading). If a WS takes the time and makes the commitment to do these things, I believe for most change is possible. But if they deflect, deny and avoid IC, there isn't much hope for change.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Elle_47
♀ Member
Member # 10455
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, January 16th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A serial cheater can definitely change, but not on their own. It will take a lot of hard work, counselling and self reflection to get there, to recognize the damaging patterns in their lives and to get to the point where they want to make significant changes.


Turns out sometimes you have to do the wrong thing. Sometimes you have to make a big mistake to figure out how to make things right. Mistakes are painful, but they're the only way to find out who you really are.

Posts: 721 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Canada
nobs4me
♀ Member
Member # 22358
Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, January 16th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WS confessed a little less than 2 weeks ago because the guilt was crushing him. He told me at that time that the A would probably not end. However, twice this week he said he wanted to end it (and actually did try), but has been going back and forth. I think this is normal? He said he is afraid that if he ends the A and we don't work out, then he will have lost everything.

Crazy as it sounds, I kind of understand this, especially as I have learned that an A is sort of an addiction. Because I want R, I have been making a sincere effort to fulfill some of the needs that he has been missing in the M. Paying more attention, giving positive feedback, being thoughtful...but trying not to be a doormat, not weeping and pleading. He knows the pain he has caused. I am really just trying to show him that our M is still a good place to be.

I am not emotionally ready to push him off the fence, yet, but I am working towards that.

Can any WS out there tell me if any of you felt the same way about ending the A? If so, what was the catalyst that put you over the edge. Do you think that I am doing the wrong thing in making the M a good place to be while he sorts through this?

I am willing to give him some time, because I really don't want him to stay unless he loves me, and I want him to be certain.


Posts: 83 | Registered: Jan 2009
Momuv4
♀ Member
Member # 17798
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, January 17th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think I know the answer to this but going to ask anyway.

My exh is pretty much with OW. She is his taxi, errand runner, and probably f buddy too! He lost his license due to a DUI and needs help getting around.

But there are times where he starts texting me and saying how much he loves me still, how he messed up, etc. He also wants to know who I am dating. I am not, but didn't tell him that.

For example last weekend baby was in ER and we were there together. He was questioning me about my invisible boyfriend again, being touchy feeley, ILY, holding my hand etc. Then 2 days later I see OW driving his kids around.

It makes no sense. He lied, he cheated, he drank and he is still with OW. Why would he say and do these things? Cakeeating?


Me: 44,H: 35,Married 1 year
Divorced 07, pregnant right after.
Thought we were in R, wrong!
H still involved with OW 2/08
H said he was committed
3/08 Little Girl Born!
7/08 DUI and found contact with OW
Kicked him out!
Trying to rebuild

Posts: 972 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: California
Elle_47
♀ Member
Member # 10455
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, January 18th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Momuv4 - yep, absolutely cakeeating. You need to 180 hard, for your own emotional protection. He doesn't get to touch you or hold your hand, if he gets emotional with the ILYs you ignore it and change the subject.

nobs4me - My A was over by the time my BS found out, but I was still in contact with the OP. What forced me to end it was when my BS said "it's over now or we are over." And no, I didn't know if BS and I would make it; I didn't know where my own heart lay at that particular moment; I was confused and a wreck. But I knew that I wanted the chance to fix things with BS, and I knew I had to give up OP in order to get that chance. That was that.


Turns out sometimes you have to do the wrong thing. Sometimes you have to make a big mistake to figure out how to make things right. Mistakes are painful, but they're the only way to find out who you really are.

Posts: 721 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Canada
lain
♀ Member
Member # 18491
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, January 19th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do not post often. But I have a question I still cannot find the answer to...
When I asked a WS "Why?" he said (among other things - validation, excitement, etc...) "It felt good to be bad!" I do not understand what does it mean... Are there any WS who can explain it to me?


The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off

BS - me
WS - him
R? - not sure if I'll ever be able to let it go...

Jan 2009: Letting go...


Posts: 106 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: Midwest
2muchhurt
♂ Member
Member # 22071
Default  Posted: 12:27 AM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel the same way. I received one excellent reply but I would like to read others. What did the man say to you that made you feel so good and want to have the affair?

Posts: 68 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Alabama
1DLW
♀ Member
Member # 21971
Default  Posted: 5:32 AM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That's a tough one to answer for most WS. Especially early on.
I've done some work on myself, looking at my FOO, and my behaviors from childhood to now.
I think I understand now, and these are NOT excuses, just what I have found that twisted my thinking.
I had several ONS, and it was all about insecurity. It was attention and "Wow, this guy thinks I'm Hot" Because of issues in my past I had a fear of abandonment, so I was unable to give myself totally to BS for fear that he would leave, so in my twisted head, I needed to be prepared for that and have something lined up.
Of course that was not my conscious thought at the time, but through investigating myself I realized this.

What did the man say to you that made you feel so good and want to have the affair

It's sad, but it doesn't take much when you are a headcase. Basically anything that makes you feel special.


WS 42

Posts: 483 | Registered: Dec 2008
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi lain ,

"It felt good to be bad!" I do not understand what does it mean... Are there any WS who can explain it to me?

If your FWH is normally a quiet guy, during A, he was able to become someone who was not himself, uninhibited bad guy streak. I met xOM through AFF and he was a much younger single guy and whom I don't normally associate with. By being with him, it made me feel like I could be someone else. Online, you can be someone whom you are not do otherwise.

Hi 2muchhurt,

What did the man say to you that made you feel so good and want to have the affair?

Each A is different, but as for my sitch, xOM said "we (xOM and I) are hot looking couple" and "Your friends would be jealous if you told them that you had a younger boyfriend" When I told him that I was hit on by other guys, "see many guys dig you, and you see why I am so into you"

I had a low self esteem and I used to enjoy the turn heads thinking that "I still got it" and that the turn heads was a barometor of attractiveness and I felt powerful.

After I worked on FOO (abandonment and codependency), my boundary wall is now solid and high. Being noticed makes me creepy feeling for awhile and now I feel nothing. I feel indifferent in the good way.

ETA: 1DLW,

I needed to be prepared for that and have something lined up.

I know what you are saying.

[This message edited by beach at 10:25 AM, January 20th (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
lain
♀ Member
Member # 18491
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Beach…It does make sense in some cases.
Although I doubt it in this one. Because the OW was his XGF from years ago. So, no “new” role here, just the old one, whatever it was…


The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off

BS - me
WS - him
R? - not sure if I'll ever be able to let it go...

Jan 2009: Letting go...


Posts: 106 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: Midwest
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lain, maybe having a double life made him feel like he could be someone else with xOW...

Like, because he doesn't have to be xOW's husband, or doesn't have to be a father, responsive adult, thus he thought that he could act and behave like he was a single carefree, and not think about around the house chore, financial responsibility..... (no bills)

I hope your H is remorseful now. Good luck with your R journey.

[This message edited by beach at 10:06 AM, January 20th (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
lain
♀ Member
Member # 18491
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Beach.
Your posts are always helpful. I admire your honesty with yourself and others and the hard work you have done.


The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off

BS - me
WS - him
R? - not sure if I'll ever be able to let it go...

Jan 2009: Letting go...


Posts: 106 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: Midwest
brokenhart
♀ Member
Member # 20268
Default  Posted: 1:29 PM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

**Sorry kdny for posting in the wrong forum! Thanks for re-directing me here.


Hi,
My WH & I have recently hit another bump in the road and I can honestly say I'm at a point where I'm considering giving up. I'm wondering if WS's on here could please help me understand something (and BS's responses are welcome too).

My question: are feelings of "hatred" towards the BS during the A's different than "the fog." My WH uses the word "hate" and it hurts.

To give you a recent context, my WH justifies being on plenty of fish two weeks ago because he was having a lot of trouble following his therapist's advice to "figure out if he married the right person" - he thought if he looked at some profiles and tried to picture himself with those women, he could finally decide. And he did. He came home from his therapy appt. (w/out telling his therapist about his breach of my boundary to not go on another dating website) and was sooo happy to tell me that I am the one for him; that I've made so much progress in the last six months on controlling my anger/emotional outbursts and becoming a better listener, that he knows for sure I'm it for him and he hopes we can seriously begin a successful R. At the time he said these things (and more) to me, I did not know about plenty of fish. Nor did I really listen to what he was saying about my being "the right person" - I was just so happy to hear him say such nice things to me, I went with it and put my rings back on.

I'm now feeling back to where I started on D-day since I found out about the website and how it "helped him make his decision." We're in separate bedrooms, and I can feel my heart checking out of this marriage. I don't want to stay in the M because I won over some profiles on the internet, right?

My WH and I have had some long talks, I've met with my IC, etc. and what is really hurting/confusing me is my WH's revelation of his mistake that he married the "wrong person," but at the time was holding out hope I would "change." When I didn't change, and our lives were met with more stress and he saw how angrily/emotionally I dealt with things (I was also suffering from undiagnosed depression at the time we moved across the country - he even had to move three months before I could for his job, so it was like we got married and he moved out right away & I was trying to finish school so I could go & live with my H again!), he says he began to "hate" me and hate his life and that's when his on-line sex progressed to full blown PA's with women from the dating sites. Although he hated his "life generally," he emphasizes that he "mostly hated" me. He is a smart man and is not loosely using the word "hate" - he knows how hurtful this is for me to hear, but he's just trying to be honest about the things he has figured out with his IC.

This is a lot to take for me, and I think he was trying to tell me this earlier in his IC, but I wasn't letting it sink in. It's a lot to take that he cheated on me for so long (it began less than a year into our M), with so many people (apparently just sexual, although there was one EA with a co-worker); that he felt he was with the wrong person but didn't know what to do except hope I'd change (and meanwhile I was very sensitive to his mood swings with me and was often left feeling quite hurt in our M, wondering what was wrong, etc), but in the mean time would walk around "hating" me unstoppably, no matter what nice things I would do.

Is this "the fog" or something different? I feel like he's telling me something much more extreme than the fog and I really need to listen up - NOW.

Despite his recent insight that I'm the one for him, I'm hurt all over again that he had his A's because I was apparently so wrong for him (before our wedding day he tried to tell me about his doubts, and I wouldn't listen then either - told him it was just cold feet). I always thought he was right for me because I loved him so much. I just thought he could "push my buttons" so well because of how much I loved him and how frustrating he could be at the same time. I feel terrible for how long my anger has gone on and was causing him/us so much emotional damage - I didn't know. I have a lot of work on myself to do still.

But I'm now questioning if he's the right person for ME (hadn't really considered it until now) if he brought out the worst in me, which in turn brought out the worst in him. And I'm quite indignant that in my sticking around these past 6 months he would still need to question whether I'm the right person for him, you know? Why did it take completely destroying me to figure out that he doesn't "hate" me anymore? I honestly don't understand and I'm hoping some WS's could please give me their take on this?

I'm questioning my WH's methodology and how he could so suddenly realize I'm the one for him after 6 months of therapy and looking at plenty of fish on-line profiles.

Is he fooling himself that he couldn't just as easily "hate" me again in the future?; that there's no way that after years of causing him so much grief he could suddenly realize I am the one for him now, while still insisting that I wasn't the one back then?

Who I was back then is also still a big part of who I am now and I am feeling very very hurt and like I can't go on anymore or stay with someone who has in the past evaluated me through "hatred" that was maybe much more than just "the fog."

Thanks in advance for your replies.

brokenhart


Me: BW, 31 - DIVORCED Oct/10; SEPARATED Jan/09
WH, 31: had 20+ PA's, 1 EMA
Married: almost 4 years; together almost 8 (no kids)
D-days: 2008/7/2 & 2008/7/27 ...trickle-truths, gaslighting & false R-ing.
~ Um, I really hate this. :(

Posts: 126 | Registered: Jul 2008
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, January 20th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lain, thank you for nice words and I am glad it helped you some.


Hi brokenhart,

Who I was back then is also still a big part of who I am now and I am feeling very very hurt and like I can't go on anymore or stay with someone who has in the past evaluated me through "hatred" that was maybe much more than just "the fog."
You are hurt, because he hurt your self worth. He cheated and he should be doing the work and not you.
And I'm quite indignant that in my sticking around these past 6 months he would still need to question whether I'm the right person for him, you know? Why did it take completely destroying me to figure out that he doesn't "hate" me anymore?

He is verbally and emotionally abusing you.

Don't value yourself through his word.

Put your healthy boundary to protect your self-love and worth. You deserve to be loved 100%. Be strong! Hugs!!


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
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