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User Topic: BS Questions for WS's II
brokendreamz
♀ Member
Member # 18436
Default  Posted: 10:56 PM, December 1st (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all,

I just wanted to re-post this question.


Recently WH made a comment about celebrating our up coming wedding anniversary. I almost gagged.
married 27+ years
DDAY was 12/26/07
R - started 6/08

From my point of view - the old marriage is dead & we have not created a "new marriage". What exactly is there to celebrate? So my question to WS - How do you view the marriage & vows that you "broke"? Less than a year after DDAY - did you want to "celebrate" it? And what exactly were you celebrating?

I was just shocked by his comment. IMHO - it just screamed that he genuinely doesnt understand the depth & breadth of my pain.


Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: SouthEast
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 11:06 PM, December 1st (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokendreamz,

Recently WH made a comment about celebrating our up coming wedding anniversary. I almost gagged.
married 27+ years
DDAY was 12/26/07
R - started 6/08

From my point of view - the old marriage is dead & we have not created a "new marriage". What exactly is there to celebrate? So my question to WS - How do you view the marriage & vows that you "broke"? Less than a year after DDAY - did you want to "celebrate" it? And what exactly were you celebrating?

I hope you told him your true feeling about this. Even though with my sitch, it was open to my H and it was a product of our alternate lifestyle, thus I didn't feel guilt or shame and not remorseful for the 6 months. Until I passed the first antiversary, I didn't feel like celebrating. We didn't celebrate like any other anniversary. I was more focusing on one day at a time of our R journey.

After we passed first antiversary, it was our 20 year anniversary, we went to Hawaii to renew our vow (just two of us) to reclaim new us!

Hope this helps.

[This message edited by beach at 11:06 PM, December 1st (Monday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
brokendreamz
♀ Member
Member # 18436
Default  Posted: 11:30 PM, December 1st (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Beach,

We are "trying" to reconcile - however it is not going very well.

So again WS - how do you view the marriage vows that YOU broke? Did you want to celebrate your anniversary and what exactly were you celebrating?


Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: SouthEast
hateher
♀ Member
Member # 17379
Sad  Posted: 8:38 AM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can't get past the words!

Quick background. We've been way into R (8 months NC) and I have been doing quite well. Now it's anniversary time since the beginning of all this, lot's of days coming throughout the next four months when this or that happened and I dread every one. H is not a date person like me and really doesn't know any of them but I'm an emotional wreck again. I'm back to feeling like the discovery was yesterday. He's having trouble understanding it. Like most of you, he's forgotten and moved on and just wants it over.

But!!!I've been obsessing about the words exchanged. H is not a very "romantic" or emotional person. I can't stop thinking about him telling her "I love you and always will" and other similar phrases. It's like a knife in my heart.

I guess my question to you WS's would be is there anything you can tell me to make me feel better about those words used? How, why they were said? Fog, yes - but am I really supposed to believe that was it? He tells me he did have some of those feelings but turned them off. Am I supposed to believe that is possible?

Any advice or just kind thoughts would be appreciated.


Posts: 321 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: Deep South
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi hateher,

First (((hugs)))) and I am sorry that you are reaching to the antiversary.... and that you are triggerly.

I've been obsessing about the words exchanged. H is not a very "romantic" or emotional person. I can't stop thinking about him telling her "I love you and always will" and other similar phrases. It's like a knife in my heart.

I guess my question to you WS's would be is there anything you can tell me to make me feel better about those words used? How, why they were said? Fog, yes - but am I really supposed to believe that was it? He tells me he did have some of those feelings but turned them off. Am I supposed to believe that is possible?

I know it is hard for you to believe that. I am not a very romantic person either, but as the PA became full blown and addictive stage, I made xOM up as a fantasy actor. I was making up something that was not in reality. I didn't love him as a person, but I was only in love with the idea of being in love with xOM, thus I acted out like I was an actress in the TV sitcom or movie (fictional story). That's my truth from my experience.

I hope this didn't hurt your feeling and helped shedding some light for you.

Agan I am sorry you are going through this.

[This message edited by beach at 10:06 AM, December 2nd (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
hateher
♀ Member
Member # 17379
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you beach. I lurk around often and your posts are always very helpful, insightful and appreciated!

Your perspective is interesting. Thank you for it. He did say that he told her what she wanted to hear but I've viewed that as a copout. The more I read from the WS side around here the more I start to believe it. He doesn't read on here (or at all) so I believe that is his own thought.

People here have said they told OP things in order to get back what they needed. I guess that makes sense - as much as any of this mess does!


Posts: 321 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: Deep South
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokendreamz -

how do you view the marriage vows that YOU broke?

*Treading very lightly on the no religion front here*

I see our vows as a promise I made to Wells before God. And yes, I broke that promise. I sought out (and received) forgiveness for that broken promise from both Wells and God.

There are two major points here. First, I don't see a broken vow as a reason to toss them away for good. If I were arrested for DUI, it doesn't mean that I can disregard the law and drink and drive since I had broken that law once before. And no, I'm not trying to say my A was the same as a DUI. It was far more destructive. But as long as Wells wants me in her life, as her husband, I view the commitment I accepted on our wedding day as still valid. I still owe it to her to honor each and every one of those vows despite having broken them in the past.

Second, the destructiveness of the A does not erase all the good that has emerged from our M. We have four amazing daughters. We have had some terrific moments - from a honeymoon in the Poconos to birthday celebrations to parent's anniversaries to Disney vacations. All of those moments still exist as the memories they were. Both Wells and I are in agreement that it has not been 19 years of pain and suffering. We will still honor the bright moments of our past, while working to restore our M from the low point I created.

Did you want to celebrate your anniversary and what exactly were you celebrating?

Our first post D-Day Anniversary was four months post D-Day. I was still at the tail end of my fog then, so I can't say we had a tremendous anniversary celebration at that point. New Year's 2008 was the day of significance, when Wells gave me her forgiveness for the New Year and beyond. But that hasn't stopped us from honoring our M - and the foundation of our entire relationship.

Next year, we will celebrate our 20th Anniversary. We will travel to our "One Particular Harbour" and renew our relationship. Not with a large gathering, tents, caterers and music. But on a beach, hopefully in a secluded spot away from anyone else. Just her, myself, God and the amazing world around us. There, we will privately restate our dedication to each other and the promise of our future.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hateher -

Like most of you, he's forgotten and moved on and just wants it over.

Just a minor adjustment here. I'm not sure many of us doing the hard work of R have forgotten and moved on. I know I haven't. My A will always be a part of my life - something I did I can never get rid of. I've just made the decision to focus on the change I can control going forward to be the best H and father I can be each day.

is there anything you can tell me to make me feel better about those words used? How, why they were said? Fog, yes - but am I really supposed to believe that was it? He tells me he did have some of those feelings but turned them off. Am I supposed to believe that is possible?

It's all perception. What I thought was love for another person was an intense need for someone else to validate who I was. If telling someone I loved them meant I would get the same level of affection in return, I would say so just to fulfill that need.

The "cure" is to find strength from within, so I didn't need someone else to define me as being good and "lovable".

One way that might help "right the ship" is to elaborate. For example, I can tell you directly that I am madly in love with my BW because she is Grace personified on Earth. Because she loves me unconditionally. Because she is incredibly selfless, seeking the happiness of those around her constantly. Because she was strong enough to provide a great foundation for our girls when I wasn't there for her. Because she is the smartest, most beautiful woman inside and out that I have ever known.

If asked why I "loved" xMOW, I couldn't give any of those reasons, or any other worthwhile ones for that matter. So it may be worth asking your WH why he loves you. Let him learn to express depth behind the emotion so the words to you carry meaning, when they were without meaning to OW.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
hateher
♀ Member
Member # 17379
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Listeningclosely - THANK YOU! Your words literally brought tears to my eyes!

My H has told me over and over again that he doesn't want to focus on the past. That he is focusing on the future, on our forever! I guess that doesn't mean forgetting.

Neither of us are in IC nor are we in MC basically for financial reasons and we both really believe we can work through it ourselves. Your advice about elaborating on love is excellent! Something I will follow through with and I'm sure would have paid good money for. Can't wait to give and hear our reasons.

Thank you! You guys who give your time and advice to try and help others are amazing!


Posts: 321 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: Deep South
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hateher, glad it helped some.

LC is very articulate and I admire his talent, too!!


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
brokendreamz
♀ Member
Member # 18436
Default  Posted: 11:53 PM, December 2nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks LC,

I am trying really hard to understand his side of this.

I see our vows as a promise I made to Wells before God.

I am struggling - I don't know how to forgive him without compromising some of my own core values. I have accepted the situation (I didn't have a choice) - but that is completely separate and different.

If I were arrested for DUI, it doesn't mean that I can disregard the law and drink and drive since I had broken that law once before.

I agree the law/vow would still be in place. However with a DUI - there would be very real consequences. (fines/court date/ driving school etc) And of course just because the law/vow exists - doesn't mean the WS (my husband) are going to obey them. My WH has not "paid" any real/external consequences. I understand that I can't control the situation and I know there are no guarantees - that the laws/vows will be obeyed.

the A does not erase all the good that has emerged from our M.

True! We too have amazing children. I agree - there have been some "good" times over the years. However right now, this minute - his A killed that marriage.

It is kinda like having a really pretty car - with a bent frame. From the outside it is all shiny and pretty. You can see that when it was first built - it was top of the line. You can sit in it, you can admire it - You can even make the engine pur. The bottom line is - you can't depend on it. It simply doesn't work. The question then becomes - what do you need it for and is it worth keeping?


Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: SouthEast
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, December 3rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokendreamz -

I don't know how to forgive him without compromising some of my own core values.

I do understand this and it's an individual decision on what each person can ultimately come to terms with. And for me to extend on the subject of my own beliefs around forgiveness, I would definitely cross the line on religious content on the site.


My WH has not "paid" any real/external consequences.

This is perhaps one of the most misunderstood aspects of the WS impact. The consequences are not always what a BS may hope they would be (equal pain inflicted through loss of the BS, left alone with the karma bus plowing over them, etc.). But there is a very real consequence that I will have to deal with the rest of my life. From the day I started my "escape" on, I lost my integrity. I lost a huge piece of my soul. And no matter how much good I do now, it can never be reclaimed. I have to live with that knowledge for the rest of my life. It's kind like the chain Marley wears in "A Christmas Carol". You can't see it among the living, but it's there. And believe me, it is a "ponderous chain".

The bottom line is - you can't depend on it. It simply doesn't work. The question then becomes - what do you need it for and is it worth keeping?

You can't depend on it unless the frame is either repaired to "like new" status or replaced. Those are pretty much the options. I was given an awesome gift in that my BW was willing to accept a "like new" repaired me, rather than to release me and look for a new replacement. The work I have done on the foundation - IC, reading, many conversations with my BW - all has gone a long way toward establishing the "like new" quality.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
dremalou
♀ Member
Member # 204
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, December 3rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm new to this Forum, so please if I violate any rules, please let me know. And, I'm not "hip" YET to all the correct abbreviations or what they mean. I will do my best. Here goes...

Listeningclosely - THANK YOU! Your words literally brought tears to my eyes!

I will repeat the words of hateher -- "your words brought tears to my eyes."

If my still WH ever said those wonderful things about me....well I'm just imagining.

And, it's not that such words could not be said about me. It's just something that has not been said in a long time.

Questions for anyone, BSs, FWSs, FOPs:

Why does the BS become a target of ridicule by the cheaters, e.g. the WS/OP?

Why if their new found "soulmate" relationship is so right, do they feel the need to badmouth the BS?

In most cases, the BS does not even know about the A (as in my case). And, later finds out via letters, emails, etc. Reading such untruths..... why is this done by the cheaters?
I mean more time is spent obsessing about the "lousy" spouse at home than on their new perfect relationship.

Is this a way of justifying what they are doing that they have to make the spouse at home out to be some kind of devil?

Sorry if my questions are out of line or been asked before. I will continue to go back and read the previous Forum's posts and hope to catch up with all of you. Thank you.


BW/59 M25yrs, 2gether 31yrs (known H 4ever), D33/gsons/12&10/gdau/2yr
WH/62 East Coast A since May 97/Deep Fog
OW/64 never married only "Does" married men
Where's the man I married?...
Pro 5:20-23...lost w/o God
Ps 119:49-80 PTL

Posts: 1125 | Registered: Jun 2002 | From: Northern CA
brokendreamz
♀ Member
Member # 18436
Default  Posted: 12:15 AM, December 4th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

THANK YOU LC!!!

The consequences are not always what a BS may hope they would be

You can't depend on it unless the frame is either repaired to "like new" status or replaced.


LC this is exactly my point!!
Our marriage is BROKEN. IMHO - WS has not shown remorse, and he has NOT made restitution. I understand that some of his wounds are internal and that I may NEVER see them. However he has shown NO urgency to "repair" the marriage. And he has done nothing to create a new marriage.

I do not understand what it is HE wants to celebrate.

Again IMHO - this is the same old marriage - pretty from the outside (everybody thinks we are just "so" happy) and yet our frame (marriage) is completely broken.


Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: SouthEast
wheat
♀ Member
Member # 18918
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, December 4th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dremalou -

Why does the BS become a target of ridicule by the cheaters, e.g. the WS/OP?

It's a way of deflecting the guilt: putting down the BS makes them feel superior. I never did this to the BS in my situation because I never knew her. To me, even while in the A, bashing her just wouldn't have made sense. I didn't want the MM to leave her for me; I was in the A for my own selfish need to have someone "want" me. But I didn't want a permanent relationship out of it.

Why if their new found "soulmate" relationship is so right, do they feel the need to badmouth the BS?

Again, it's to justify in their warped minds that the A is ok. Especially if the OW is predatory and wants to keep planting the seeds of contempt in the WH's mind. That's a pretty conniving way of manipulation, to keep pointing out the supposed "flaws" in the totally unaware BS by the OW. That makes the WH in some cases even more resentful of his made-up "bad life". It's just ridiculous behavior on their part.

In most cases, the BS does not even know about the A (as in my case). And, later finds out via letters, emails, etc. Reading such untruths..... why is this done by the cheaters?
I mean more time is spent obsessing about the "lousy" spouse at home than on their new perfect relationship.

Exactly, as I said above. It's a way to keep up the negativity in order to justify their behavior. Continually bashing the BS and pointing out her supposed flaws is a way to make the OW seem a far better choice for the WH to be with. It's total manipulation.

Is this a way of justifying what they are doing that they have to make the spouse at home out to be some kind of devil?

YES!! And it's despicable behavior.

I'm so sorry they're pulling this crap with you.


"Every new day is another chance to change your life."

FSOW - late 30's, married now.


Posts: 209 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: midwest
dremalou
♀ Member
Member # 204
Default  Posted: 4:08 AM, December 5th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Wheat for your honest feedback and your support!!! Appreciate it.


BW/59 M25yrs, 2gether 31yrs (known H 4ever), D33/gsons/12&10/gdau/2yr
WH/62 East Coast A since May 97/Deep Fog
OW/64 never married only "Does" married men
Where's the man I married?...
Pro 5:20-23...lost w/o God
Ps 119:49-80 PTL

Posts: 1125 | Registered: Jun 2002 | From: Northern CA
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 6:06 AM, December 5th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dremalou -

I'll offer a slightly different reason than Wheat. The site where my A started was filled with WS's, and yes there were plenty who were narcissistic and who pleasured themselves on creating drama.

But there were actually more who would act the way you are talking about because they were lied to. A WS often doesn't only lie to their BS. They lie to their OP and to themselves.

During my A, I rewrote the history of my M, leaving out all the things that mattered and focusing only on the challenges. I fooled myself into thinking my BW was mistreating me and making me unhappy. That's the picture I portrayed to the xMOW. So of course the xMOW's opinion was that my BW didn't see what a "great guy I was" and "how lucky she was to have me". Because xMOW was never told about all the good my BW did that far outweighed anything I might not have been happy with at the time.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
roccodom
♀ Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, December 5th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need some help. As many of you may already know. I have had a WS who did not keep NC since I found out in May. He slept with her once in August. This all was confirmed by OW. AP played drama out of "I will tell your wife yada, yada, yada" "I am going to kill myself". He claimed all contact was concern for her.

He apparently gets why no contact is important now and I DO beleive that is happening. And he has told me when she left a note in his car. BUT my mind is so screwed up - I don't know up from down, right from left.

I have panic and anxiety all the time.

Within this time - he has been better than he ever was in our marriage. Been transparent, tried to be supportive, and remorseful. Well the other night - he expoded because I woke from a terrible dream and started accusing him.

He said he is exhausted - he is acting very removed from me. I told him this was freaking me out because thats how he acted when he was in contact.

He seems to be shutting me out. At MC last night he said he feels like he is pissing up a rope. And that we are going around in a circle. This sounds so much like IN CONTACT WS that I'm freaking. He just said he is tired and frustrated because he knows that I don't believe him and he is at a loss at what to do.

Please help me.


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, December 5th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

roccodom -

He just said he is tired and frustrated because he knows that I don't believe him and he is at a loss at what to do.

I totally understand that feeling. Having some hindsight on this now, what I've learned is that there are a couple of influences on the work a FWS does. From a BS impact, change has to be consistently in place for an extended period of time before it can overcome the lies and deceipt. Countering that is the fact that a FWS really is doing very hard work to repair the damage within them, only to feel like when they mention the things they are doing it is met with "well what do you want, a medal for doing what a normal person should be doing?" response.

I think the answer is to try to balance both sides. Make sure you solidify the message about the need for consistency over time, while at the same time offering thanks once in a while for the things that are being done.

We use "love tip jars" that help in this area. Each time one of us does something the other one appreciates, we write it on a slip of paper and place it in the tip jar. After a while, we pull them out and read them to see what our spouse appreciates in us (this also reinforces continuing the things that matter). Whichever one of us gets less tips is on the hook for planning an upcoming date night.

I'm sure there are other ways to make this happen. But so far I like the results (other than the fact that Wells seems to always get one or two more tips than I do - I still have a lot of work to do to inspire her!).


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
roccodom
♀ Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, December 5th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you listen closely:

MC also said I should recognize the efforts. Sometimes I do - but I will readily admit - not all the times.

I did tell him last night that I was TOO AFRAID to let go and believe or trust. It just scares me of being hurt further.

I don't think he is completely out of the fog as last contact was Oct 7th. Well actually - she left a note in his care Oct 31st ( I don't know if that counts). He denys this, but last night at MC he said he still wonders if she is okay. I get it, but don't like it.

I just need to take care of me.

Is it detrimental to me to reach out to him because I want warmth and love? I want to have a good time with him and not think about all of this. Sometimes I think I prevent this because it may set me up to be hurt?

Oh - I am just one confused person.


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
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