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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's II
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 6:20 AM, May 21st (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

want-it-2-b-ok -

Is this 'normal' behaviour for a WS.

I'm not sure there is a "normal" in all of this.

With that said, the reaction from your WH sounds full of fog. He's bouncing back and forth from your corner

calling me every day to see if I am okay (on strong antiD's because of this) and texting sayin how he misses his 'babydoll'

to her corner

There's no point to u and me any more. The truth's out in the open so what 's the point.

Take my wedding ring back- it means nothing to me- our marriage has always been crap.

First of all, NC is critical to breaking down these back and forth thoughts. As long as an OP is in the picture and can influence the thinking of a WS, they will continue to feel confused. It's only when that communication path shuts down that things get clearer.

This is also why I feel it's critical (if R is to happen) that the WS be living in the same household as the BS. Time apart means time the WS has alone to pine over both their BS and their OP with no feedback to help them. The days within an A are the weakest moments in a weak person's life. And without strong support for making good choices, the WS struggles to find their way to a path of healing.

Does my marriage stand a chance or what?

As long as his thinking remains muddled in the fog, you won't be able to move forward. Whether or not the M can be saved depends on whether or not he can take enough steps to clear his fog before the amount of time you can tolerate his limbo state runs out.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
MyEndlessTears
♀ Member
Member # 23713
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, May 21st (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does kissing always lead to sex in an affair? I posted this on the R forum, but I would like responses from WSs as well. As most of you who have been reading my posts know, my FWH has insisted over and over and over and over that there was no sex of any kind in his relationship with FMOW. He admits there was kissing, but says that is as far as it ever went. We are in R and are doing fairly well, but I am riddled with doubts. Every time I post something about this on this forum, everyone tells me pretty much that I am a fool to believe him. And that their husbands admitted the truth much much much later.Does kissing always lead to sex in an affair? This is a real question. I have no evidence it was more than that. And I have no evidence that it wasn't. Since I have already exhausted all detective techniques I can think of (including frying his computer), I either have to eventually take that leap of faith forward and start trying to believe him or torture myself endlessly (what I am doing now) with uncertainty. Because if he did have sex with her, there is no sign that he is going to ever tell me. If he did have sex with her, I am pretty sure he will take it to the grave. He has agreed to a lie detector, but I don't really have much faith in them anyway so I haven't gone ahead with making an appointment. There is really no chance of me asking FMOW to see if their stories match because the couple of times I did try to contact her, she called the cops on me and I was told that if I contacted her again, it would be seen as harassment and I would be arrested. FWH has had NC since DDAy and (as far as I can tell) has never looked back. Since DDAY,he has also been the model husband. He says he never loved her and did not want to have sex with her because he already knew that the kissing was crossing the line...He says that it was more about the EA and the venting to each other than about the kissing anyway. Every day, he begs me to believe him so that we can move forward with our R. Because I still have doubts and uncertainties, does that necessarily mean he did have sex? That's what everyone on this board seems to be telling me. Does it have to be that my gut is telling me something? Or could it just be that I am now totally paranoid after the betrayal? Or am I just being naive because I want to believe him? I feel like I am literally slipping into madness. Please help me.


ME: BS (51)
HIM: FWH (51)
MARRIED: 31 years, together 35
DDAY: 9/27/08
EA AND PA, 1 year
multiple DDAYS:9 months of trickle truth & counting
Reconciling

"An EA is just a PA you don't know about yet." (MET)


Posts: 374 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: NYC
icbtih8
♀ Member
Member # 23797
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, May 21st (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MET, i'm not a WS so i have no clue. i never had any evidence whatsoever about WH having sex with anyone else. my gut told me there was more. he finally confessed he had sex twice with one of many OW before we were married. trust your gut.


D-day #1 - April 29, 2009

Beauty is a calling...a call "to transfigure what has harden or was wounded within you"
-- John O'Donohue


Posts: 5424 | Registered: Apr 2009
nomore143
♀ Member
Member # 23818
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, May 21st (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ListeningClosely - Yes! There are specific things that I'm just trying to figure out. He will not stop seeing her right now. I have accepted that and I've been doing a 180... Not perfect at it but trying. We are seperated. He is living with his parents. His parents will not allow her at their home. They will not accept her at all. Right now we have some really good converstations about what happened and all of that but he gets angry at me not long after. I feel like maybe he's realizing that I'm not all bad and he's trying to bait me into a fight so he has a reason to continue to justify seeing her. He always wants to know what I'm doing and seems scared of losing me. I told him I'm not waiting around. When he comes out of the fog we can discuss R but right now I'm living life like I'm single. He says he's ok with that but I can tell he isn't. I'm not sure if he's angry with me or with himself and he's taking it out on me, I don't know if he is truly sorry and remorseful, if he is starting to fence sit in and out of the fog... I don't know if he's hurting because of what he's done. His actions are so back and forth but he won't talk about it. He won't go to IC... So I'm starting to feel like it's a lost cause but at the same time I think he's still very much in the fog and I don't want to give up on him just yet. D Day was very recent. I'm taking it one day at a time, I'm in IC and I'm really moving forward with my life. He seems shocked that I'm so strong and moving on. Its just so confusing. I do want to R but that won't happen if he won't come out of the fog. He has until the end of August to decide. 3 months I think is enough time for him to de fog or not. Especially with a 180 and me moving on. Sorry if I'm rambling. If you need clarifiation please let me know.

[This message edited by nomore143 at 7:10 AM, May 21st (Thursday)]


Failure will never overtake me if my determination to succed is strong enough!

http://eahaffairjournal.blogspot.com/

D-Day 4/25/2009


Posts: 286 | Registered: May 2009
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, May 21st (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nomore - the only risk I see is that if he's not NC, then he might not come out of the fog in 3 months. You really need to be apart from the OP to go through withdrawal and get rid of them. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here ...


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, May 21st (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MET - I would find that suspicious. It's hard to imagine a 1 year PA that doesn't progress beyond kissing, but I guess anything is possible. My EA/PA didn't go beyond kissing, but it was <2 months and we only met in person once. I'm sure it would have gone farther if we hadn't be lucky enough to be caught when we did.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
eyes2thehills
♀ Member
Member # 24094
Default  Posted: 12:30 AM, May 22nd (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I posted my sit in detail over in general, but I'm desperate to know what it means when a FWS still seems to think like a WS. My H believes he can still engage in "risky" behavior even though it causes me fear. He wants to have a Facebook page, he wants to line up work bids (Pilot) with females that HE says are "safe," he isn't worried about hanging out with friends who consider the OW a friend, etc. I tell him each time that I am uncomfortable with these choices, that the way I see it, he is leaving a door cracked that should not only be closed, but also locked. I'm beginning to feel like I'm begging him to love me, care for me, and protect me. Does this mean we aren't in recovery? Is he still in the fog? I'm soooooo confused. Thanks for any insight you can offer.

Posts: 174 | Registered: May 2009
Lilly642
♀ Member
Member # 23984
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, May 22nd (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eyes to the hills:

my husband's affair happened with someone he thought was "safe". that's why he became friends with her. she was pregnant at the time. the talking became more frequent and she had those babies and by then it was a total EA. As soon as she had those babies it became physical.

NO ONE is safe.


me-BW(29)
WH(31)
divorce will be final 1-19-10

Posts: 205 | Registered: May 2009 | From: ohio
eyes2thehills
♀ Member
Member # 24094
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, May 22nd (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lilly, no arguments from me! I think that once affair waters have been waded in, there are life long boundaries (above and beyond what most people think are reasonable and necessary) that need to be put in place and adheard to for life. I'm just trying to figure out what it means that my H donesn't see it this way. It leaves me feeling unsafe and unloved in the relationship. I'm hoping a FWS will shed some light on this for me.

Posts: 174 | Registered: May 2009
painfulandhurt
♂ Member
Member # 22666
Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, May 22nd (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Eyes2theHills -

If a WS is truly F or working towards R - my thoughts on this are very simple. Ask the most simple of questions - WHY? Then ask him what is his motivation? (and you should be able to answer based on your observation of his behavior).

To me - I look at it simply as - Why would I want to put myself in a potential situation where I am tempted to cross boundaries I knew I already crossed? This board and geek websites are as far as I go these days into the internet. I also have put roadblocks in my own path (granted I also know how to get around them) but just having them there keeps me straight and narrow. Also I have some people who I can rely on and talk to if I feel like I am going in the wrong direction or will call me out on it.

So in short the answer I have is no it is not ok, why would I want to hurt myself more? If he isn't able to see that timebomb waiting to happen - then he hasn't dug into himself enough to fully understand why he crossed boundaries in the first place.

Just my opinion.


WS - 30's (Me) BS - 30's (her)
M >10y
1 DS/DD
DDay# 05/2008
R / S / D - Im not sure and it changes moment to moment.

Posts: 359 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: lost...
drowninginsorrow
♀ Member
Member # 4545
Red  Posted: 9:03 PM, May 22nd (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

this thread is for WS to answer questions from BS...

unless you are a FWS please do not answer questions posed on this thread

the very first post on this thread is by SI staff and states:

BS's, please do not answer by proxy for your WS, stick to your situation

Also, please read in the Healing library, under the BS FAQ's, WS FAQ's and BS for WS FAQ's before posting your question.

[This message edited by drowninginsorrow at 9:04 PM, May 22nd (Friday)]


Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.- Matt Groening
"I've found the secret to life. I'm ok when everything is not ok"- Tori Amos lyrics

Posts: 56712 | Registered: Jun 2004 | From: canuckistan
JustDone
♀ Member
Member # 9742
Default  Posted: 7:39 AM, May 23rd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MyEndlessTears,

"Does kissing always lead to sex in an affair?"
No, not if one of them doesn't want to have sex. It can happen.

-JD


Forgiveness is giving up the possibility of a better past.

Nobody forgets what happens, the secret is learning to live with it.


Posts: 2764 | Registered: Feb 2006
dancingintherain
♀ New Member
Member # 24106
Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, May 23rd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My question is for former WS's: my WH has broken off all contact with the OW (without prompting from me- because when I found out, I was DONE!), he quit his job and got a new one (since the OW was a co-worker), changed his number that she cannot call him, he's going to a personal counselor every week, as well as seeking weekly counsel from our pastor. We are currently seperated, but I miss him and love him and want this to work. How can I be sure he's sincere? I just don't understand why this happened. I've asked him and asked him and he just says that he didn't "feel" loved. This EA with the OW eventually led to a PA, and him filing for a D, which he has since stopped.
I want to believe that he's sincere....but there' no trust...

Any insights from former WS's would be helpful...


Me: BS
Him: FWH (hopefully)
D-day: 4-1-09
I'm still not 100% commited, but trying R.

"It's not about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain."


Posts: 24 | Registered: May 2009 | From: The lonely west....
Micha
♀ Member
Member # 21884
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, May 24th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it normal or even possible for a ws to not remember conversations that he had with ow? My h says he doesn't remember details like that but i find it hard to believe. This is a man who remembers everything but not about the affair.

Thanks
Micha


Posts: 104 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: OK
always learning
♀ Member
Member # 23461
Default  Posted: 8:38 PM, May 24th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Micha,

I have a very good memory and can remember almost every conversation I had with the OM but I have to say if it was my husband that had the affair he wouldn't be able to tell me anything.

If your husband if a forgetful person or someone that the details escape their mind it is very well possible he doesn't remember.

I don't know if this helps but every person is different in what they remember. Maybe if you asked specific questions he might be able to answer like "Did you talk about me and what was going on with in our marriage?" He should be able to answer a question like that I would think.

I hope this helps and I am sorry you are going through all this pain.


FWW - Me (42)
BH- Him (40)
Met '94, Married '96.
3 kids DS 13, DD, 8, DD 6.
D-Day December '08.
Status: Reconciling

Posts: 67 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Midwest
eyes2thehills
♀ Member
Member # 24094
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, May 25th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Painful,

Thank you for the reply.

This makes sense. Ask him why, so I asked, and here is his answer:
I want to feel like the head of the household. I don't want to be controlled. I don't see it as a big risk in comparison to other things in my life, such as my job. His motivation is to feel in control of his own life and to make the call as to weather or not something is risky.

To me, this is saying: I want you to sacrifice your sense of safety and care so that I can do what I want and feel in control of my life. Simply put, it says: I don't care about you.

So, since I CAN'T control him, despite what he thinks, I have to choose to live with his behaviors or not. And I feel stuck. I love the man, though I'm not in love. And I want to keep our family together for our kids. But selfishly, I want a man who will love me first.

To me - I look at it simply as - Why would I want to put myself in a potential situation where I am tempted to cross boundaries I knew I already crossed?

This shows care about protecting your marriage. Did you instantly feel this way or did it take time? How did you come to see this as necessary?

Also I have some people who I can rely on and talk to if I feel like I am going in the wrong direction or will call me out on it.

He does have an accountability group, but I have no idea how it works or weather or not he is honest.

So in short the answer I have is no it is not ok, why would I want to hurt myself more? If he isn't able to see that timebomb waiting to happen - then he hasn't dug into himself enough to fully understand why he crossed boundaries in the first place. quote]

How can I encourage him to do this...or can I do anything at all? I'm unsure of my role in this. Thanks so much for your insight and help!


Posts: 174 | Registered: May 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, May 26th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dancingintherain -

How can I be sure he's sincere?

Totally sure? I'm not sure there is such a thing. IMHO, a big component of love is faith in the person we love. That's why an A is so destructive. It rips apart the vital foundation of the relationship.

At first, it's simply the commitment to the actions that are needed to start healing. Going NC. Getting into IC. Answering questions without getting defensive. These are important first steps.

Even with all of this, there will be a period of time of lingering fog where a WS still doesn't get it.

he just says that he didn't "feel" loved

This indicates someone who still hasn't figured out why they had an A. It's a pretty common excuse - part of what I said myself early on in fact. But it needs to be challenged. Often the follow up question is "So if you didn't feel loved, why didn't you say something?" or "Why didn't you just file for a D?". In your case, he took those steps. But what he felt inside obviously didn't match his actions because he stopped the process.

One of the things my BW required of me to start the R process was that we both be "all in". We both had equal risk. She risked opening herself up again to possibly have me leave her again. I risked that she would not be able to heal from the damage I inflicted and decide no matter how hard I worked it would never be enough.

All in meant staying together. No S. We had to work at this as a team in order to overcome it. I'm not saying there aren't examples of folks who were S and still recovered. Just for us, it was critical that we faced the challenges of R together.

Just as a BS needs signs of hope that their WS gets it and will continue to invest in their M, a WS needs signs of hope that the work they are doing has the potential to improve their future. If your WS is doing the right things, it may be worth considering getting back together on a trial basis. Of course, one of the conditions is the continuation of the actions you have described. It's a "one and done" policy - fail on one of the actions and it's back to S.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, May 26th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Micha -

Is it normal or even possible for a ws to not remember conversations that he had with ow?

The answer is "it depends". Depends on the type of person they are and what types of details they remember. I can't remember to pick up the gallon of milk I was asked this morning to get, so details of a conversation I had months ago are not likely to be clear.

It also depends on the way the question is asked. Do you remember exactly what you said to a friend or family member on a call you had with them on February 4th? Unlikely that you could say these were the precise four topics you discussed on that day at that time. Yet this is how it feels as a WS to be asked exactly what we discussed with the OP.

However, if you ask more general questions such as whether or not your WS discussed you, the kids, the topic of sex (in general), hopes, dreams, jobs, etc. - that is a question that should be able to be answered.

I've seen many posts here on SI where a BS asks what their WS talked about for hundreds of hours. The WS answers "just every day stuff - work, family - you know, just stuff". This frustrates the BS, and understandably so. In effect, I think the way the question is phrased sets up the answer to be a form of trickle truth. Because for me to say that xMOW and I talked about every day stuff would be truthful. But what it leaves out is context. The context was that we talked about those things within the foggy framework of being "miserable" in our marriages. So did we talk about family? Sure, but in terms of them not making us happy. Did we talk about jobs? Yes, but in the context of how awful our boss was or how we wish we could hit the lottery (yeah, another fantasy that went along with the rest of the fog) and quit our job. Sex? Yup, but in the context of "in a perfect world this is how it would be".

So yes, the conversations were the sames types I would have been having with my BW during that time. But it was the tone that was different, because I was seeing the world through foggy eyes.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, May 26th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eyes2thehills -

Does this mean we aren't in recovery? Is he still in the fog?

It means he is still focused selfishly on what he wants, without regard for how it impacts others around him.

The key is not that Facebook, working with someone of the opposite sex or hanging out with people who are friends of OP are bad in and of themselves. The key is that to date, your WS has not done enough work to show that he has "affair proofed" himself and made these things less concerning.

The questions I would want answers to would be:

How have you changed from when the A took place that makes it safer for you to place yourself in these situations?

What steps are you willing to take to help me feel safe and secure in our M when you are involved in these areas, where boundaries are frequently crossed when skills are not there to handle them properly?

M is not about control, but it does involve sacrifice on both parts to find a way to meet in the middle. What sacrifices do you feel you are making to help me meet you in the middle?


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
icbtih8
♀ Member
Member # 23797
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, May 26th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

question for WS; i just want your opinions. If a WS refuses to take a lie detector, do you think it means the WS is hiding more information?


D-day #1 - April 29, 2009

Beauty is a calling...a call "to transfigure what has harden or was wounded within you"
-- John O'Donohue


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