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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's II
eyes2thehills
♀ Member
Member # 24094
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, May 30th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question about real recovery vs. false recovery. If real recovery requires true repentance and true repentance is not merely a change in actions, but a change in thinking that results in a change in action, then false recovery is possible even if my WS has put an end to the A. He can give up the OW, but still think like a WS. Is this right? If so, then what leads to real repentance? If you don't mind sharing, I'd love to hear your stories and or opinions. It seems like so many people here had instantly repentant spouses and that recovery comes more easily for them. I guess I'm a little jealous, but also a little less hopeful that my H and can recover. Thank you for any insight you can offer!

Posts: 174 | Registered: May 2009
1DLW
♀ Member
Member # 21971
Default  Posted: 9:40 PM, May 30th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question about real recovery vs. false recovery. If real recovery requires true repentance and true repentance is not merely a change in actions, but a change in thinking that results in a change in action, then false recovery is possible even if my WS has put an end to the A. He can give up the OW, but still think like a WS. Is this right? If so, then what leads to real repentance?

Eyes, there's a lot in there but I'm gonna try.
I think there needs to be some bit of repentance for a WS to even try R. For me, ended A several months before my BH discovered and confronted me. So, ending the A is only the first step. We have to be willing to change our actions, changing our thinking requires major work.
I had to dig deep, look at myself and find my core issues that made me the horrible person I was before. I think changing our actions AND our thinking go together, the more each one changes, the more it changes the other, does that make sense?
I'm a recovering alcoholic, and the principles in recovery help me so much with my R with BH.
In AA we have a saying, We came for our drinking, and stay for our thinking.
We change the action first, because we can't fix anything else until we do.
So I guess what I'm saying is, the action has to change first, the thinking will follow.


WS 42

Posts: 483 | Registered: Dec 2008
Fallen
♀ Member
Member # 4313
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, May 31st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wasn't instantly remorseful, though I was sorry that my husband was hurting. It was more of a detached "sorry" than a deep remorse. I was foggy and still talking to the OP for about 6 weeks after dday. However, as I got deeper into therapy, and as my husband started to let me know he wouldn't wait forever for me to make a decision, I finally made the break with the OP.

It took a little time to go through withdrawal and to build up good boundaries. So even though I was remorseful at that point, I was still relearning how to be social without being flirty and was trying to figure out how to give my husband what he needed while still meeting my own needs.

Basically when I cheated, I was behaving like a selfish, spoiled brat. I was so immature. The aftermath of the A forced me to grow up pretty damned quick- because I wanted to be healthy. That is the most important thing... A WS can start counseling because their BS asks for it, but they have to believe in it for themselves or it's not going to work. Ultimately it doesn't matter what gets a WS moving down the right path, it only matters that they stay on that right path and hopefully eventually they'll understand that being emotionally healthy is far easier than the old destructive patterns.


You can't heal what you won't feel.

"There would be no grand absolution, only forgiveness meted out in these precious sips. It would well up from his heart in spoonfuls, and he would feed it to me. And it would be enough."


Posts: 23475 | Registered: May 2004
down4now
♀ Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, June 1st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A question from a very confused BW for any men out there, but especially FWH's. (BW welcome to comment as well)

A few days ago I printed off a letter that one member had written to her FWH which described what it might have been like if she had had the A and how it might then make him feel (sorry but I've read so many posts that I can't recall the name) - it was quite explicit in places and I thought it might make my H wake up to how I was really feeling about his intimate moments with the OW.

My mistake! It had quite the opposite effect. He said it 'turned him on' and that he had often fantasised about me with another man. I really couldn't believe what he was saying! So I asked him if he would still feel that way if I'd really had an A. His answer was equally unbelievable. He said that half of him would be appalled but the other half would be aroused. Is this really a 'man' thing as he suggests? Or is he just living in fantasyland, knowing that I would never stray?

For the record, I have no intention of trying out his theory, I just can't get my head around it.


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, June 1st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eyes2 -

My experience was similar to Fallen's. Although the permanent goal is to have the thinking drive future choices and actions, the process was a bit reversed for me at first.

I had to break the wrong habits in order to establish a routine. That routine focused my thoughts, which were really very scattered both during the A and in the aftermath of D-Day.

I remained in a fog for five months after D-Day. that didn't mean I was not dedicated to the process of NC, IC, MC and transparency. It did not mean that I was not deeply sorry for the pain I had caused my BW. It simply meant that I was not mentally capable of deep and total remorse until I could purge both xMOW and my own warped thinking from my system.

The time frame will differ for every WS. What you want to see is that over time, progress is made. That change does happen. And that in the end, each day gets a little better instead of continuing to get worse.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
SendInTheClowns
♂ New Member
Member # 17911
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, June 1st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question for FWWs. Were you ever able to rekindle feelings for your BH that were as strong as the feelings you felt for the OM?

We are coming up on two years post-dday. FWW feels remorse. We've seen a MC and our communication is better than it has ever been. We're kind to each other and spend a lot of time together. I give her as much attention as I possibly can. And still, this A, it hurts. It really fucking hurts.

Anything anyone can say to help? Is there some hope?


Posts: 24 | Registered: Jan 2008
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, June 1st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Were you ever able to rekindle feelings for your BH that were as strong as the feelings you felt for the OM?

Yes and no. I don't ever expect to feel those addictive insane feelings again, and I don't want to! Whoever here said it was like the beginning of a relationship high, but on steroids, had it right.

OTOH, I feel WAY more REAL love for my husband than I ever did for the OM.

I expect this to hurt my husband for a long time. But the feelings for him are real while the feelings for OM were just based on a fantasy.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, June 1st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eyes2, my experience was also like Fallen's and LC's.

I remained in a fog for five months after D-Day. that didn't mean I was not dedicated to the process of NC, IC, MC and transparency. It did not mean that I was not deeply sorry for the pain I had caused my BW. It simply meant that I was not mentally capable of deep and total remorse until I could purge both xMOW and my own warped thinking from my system.

I was very foggy for 3 months, maybe more. I'm feeling more and more remorseful now (5 months out) as I understand better what the affair was and why I did it. But it did take time for me to get to this point.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
eyes2thehills
♀ Member
Member # 24094
Default  Posted: 12:18 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you so much for the insights many of you have offered. I am so grateful for the chance to learn and find hope from others who've lived this too. I want to be sure you know your time to answer sometimes difficult questions is very helpful and appreciated.

Posts: 174 | Registered: May 2009
NeedingGodsHelp
♀ Member
Member # 23580
Default  Posted: 2:31 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Were any of the WS's cruel and completely irrational during the fog?

My WH has not had an actual conversation with me about anything... us, the kids, nothing... since he left us 3 months ago. I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to at least parent with him, as I am giving up hope (or desire) for R. He is either hateful, cruel, or ignores me.

Can you pease help me understand how the person I married is completely gone and replaced with someone who treats me as if I am garbage on the side of the road?

Is this how it is going to be from now on?

[This message edited by NeedingGodsHelp at 2:33 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday)]


BS: me 33
WH: him 33
Married almost 9 yrs, together (off-and-on) 18.5 years
4 kids: 1 mine & 3 ours
DD#1: 2/12/2009 (EA#1)
DD#2: 2/26/2009 (EA/PA w/ tramp#2 - since July 2008)
Status: D 5/2010, Standing, WH living with OW, D filed 4/28/09)

Posts: 440 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Climbing out of hell...
Carnival
♂ Member
Member # 23447
Default  Posted: 6:25 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi there all the WSs.
I was just wondering what is the psychological mechanism that makes you ignore the probability that you can eventually get caught. Is it something you repress? Do you even think about it while in A? Do you tink that this probability is extremely low? Do you know that probaility is high but still, A is stronger than you?


If you are going through hell keep going.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

Posts: 271 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: The next place
fyrepixie15
♀ Member
Member # 20815
Default  Posted: 7:03 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS here...needingGod...all i can say is what my H does...we tried R for a few months..didn't work fast enough for him with me being able to trust, etc...so 2 and a half weeks ago I made him leave. He went straight to OW and has only contacted me once, I have contacted him 3 times, busting him with OW finally after he wouldn't tell me where he was. He was supposed to come get the rest of his stuff yesterday and didn't. I shut his cell off and he hasn't (supposedly) gotten it turned back on so all I can do is email..which takes him forever to answer me. It is like an alien has taken over his body and mind. Like the man I married is gone. He has been cruel...to our DD actually. Not really that much to me outwardly. But his actions have been cruel, of course. He was supposed to go off on his own and "figure things out" ALONE! He didn't. And he wonders why I think NC had been broken for at least a month before I asked him to leave (which he was reluctant to do).

All I can say is hang in there..


Me 39
H 39
Married 14 yrs
DD 20
DS 18
D-Day 8/11/08
in IC, both of us


"You change for two reasons: Either you learn enough that you want to, or you've been hurt enough that you have to."


Posts: 1710 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Florida
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Carnival -

I tried to take precautions against getting caught, so I knew there was a possibility, but I never really thought it would happen. I was in complete denial about that, in my fantasy world. I hate to admit it, but OM and I even thought that maybe things would be easier if they were out in the open. I mean, WTF??? WTH was I thinking?

We were caught because his wife found some emails and called my house. I was completely shocked when it happened, but as soon as it did I knew without a doubt that it was over and I wasn't going to leave my husband.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
Lilly642
♀ Member
Member # 23984
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

empty cup:

this is not sarcastic or smart ass question, this is a real sincere question. it's hard to know how to take things said via the computer so i wanted to clarify before i asked this.

ok, so you said that when you got caught, you knew it was over and you knew you wouldn't leave your husband.

Why? why didn't you want to leave your husband? did you kind of instantly come out of your fog somewhat?

i guess i'm having a hard time bc i feel like if my FWH didn't want to be with me he shoulve left me, not cheat on me. even after i found out. i don't understand how he could all of a sudden completely change from wanting her to wanting me. and he wasn't foggy at all from the moment i found out, at least not that i know of. it was like instant.

he cried, he stayed home from work for 2 days to be with me, and he completely stopped all contact with her. i know this bc she called me at work a couple of times and told me how betrayed SHE felt.

i don't get it. maybe i won't ever get it.

i guess i just am confused about how you could not want to leave your husband. i feel like he thought so little of me to be able to do this to me, why does he want me now?

[This message edited by Lilly642 at 8:52 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday)]


me-BW(29)
WH(31)
divorce will be final 1-19-10

Posts: 205 | Registered: May 2009 | From: ohio
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why? why didn't you want to leave your husband? did you kind of instantly come out of your fog somewhat?

No, it took me several months to come out of the fog. I mourned the loss of the OM, or at least I thought I did, but I was really missing how I felt from his attentions. I was feeling withdrawal from that high.

I never wanted to leave my husband. I never wanted to damage my marriage. This goes along with my answer about not thinking I would get caught - I was so sucked into my little fantasy world that I couldn't even imagine it crashing into my real one.

i guess i'm having a hard time bc i feel like if my FWH didn't want to be with me he shoulve left me, not cheat on me.

Of course having an affair was a TERRIBLE way to deal with all the things that got me there. There were many other choices available and I didn't take them. That's what every WS has to work through - no matter what the situation was before the affair, what was it that made them have an affair instead of any other option.

i don't understand how he could all of a sudden completely change from wanting her to wanting me.

I wanted my marriage, I wanted my family, and I wanted these feelings the OM brought out in me. I felt desired, beautiful, attractive, witty, etc. As soon as we were caught, reality came crashing down big time. There was *always* a part of me that knew the affair wasn't a real relationship, that at best it was the start of one. I never knew what it would be like to be with OM for real and I would never have broken up my marriage for something like that. There were other things I didn't figure out until after I came out of the fog.

Some WSs do skip the fog stage, especially if there's no emotional attachment.

During the affair, I compartmentalized big time. I was lost in the fantasy. I don't mean this to sound like a cop-out or an excuse - it doesn't make it any better. But I wasn't cold and calculating about it. I was deluding myself and allowing myself to not consider the fallout. I remember once thinking very clearly "there's no way this can end well", but I pushed the thought away and went back to doing what I wanted. It was pure selfishness. The affair was new and exciting and fun, and I wanted it.

Did I answer any of your questions? It's hard to answer them logically because my logical thought processes were turned off (or ignored purposely) during the affair and I was acting emotionally. As my husband says, Mr. Spock and Captain Kirk weren't on the same page.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
Lilly642
♀ Member
Member # 23984
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

empty cup,

he did have an emotional attachment, at least for most of it according to him. he told her he loved her and he thought he did for a while. he said that right before christmas he realized that he didn't love her and that he knew he wanted out.

he says he tried ending it, but that's when she went psycho and threatened telling me and her husband. my husband said he felt trapped at first, but he eventually got sick of her "blackmailing" him and told her to go ahead and do whatever she needed to do becasue no matter what, it was over.

you did answer my questions. thank you.

what did you think of your husband during your A? did you and your OM talk about him and put him down? my husband's ow talked shit about me all the time, but my husband allowed her to. he told her my every flaw and let her tear me apart and he would believe her.

that hurts me so much too. she knows so much about me and my past and things that bothered him about me and she just magnified everything to make me look like a piece of shit wife.


me-BW(29)
WH(31)
divorce will be final 1-19-10

Posts: 205 | Registered: May 2009 | From: ohio
down4now
♀ Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what did you think of your husband during your A? did you and your OM talk about him and put him down? my husband's ow talked shit about me all the time, but my husband allowed her to. he told her my every flaw and let her tear me apart and he would believe her.

that hurts me so much too. she knows so much about me and my past and things that bothered him about me and she just magnified everything to make me look like a piece of shit wife.


Mine did this as well and it hurt like hell (still does) - he says he did it (and allowed her to do it) in order to make what he was doing more acceptable even though he knew in his heart that it was really all lies.


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what did you think of your husband during your A? did you and your OM talk about him and put him down? my husband's ow talked shit about me all the time, but my husband allowed her to. he told her my every flaw and let her tear me apart and he would believe her.

that hurts me so much too. she knows so much about me and my past and things that bothered him about me and she just magnified everything to make me look like a piece of shit wife.

We didn't do that, at all. We talked a bit about what was wrong in our marriages, but I was very careful to not demonize my husband and I would never have said anything bad about his wife!


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
Lilly642
♀ Member
Member # 23984
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

empty cup,

(i should just pm you! but you are probably sick of me questioning you! haha)

ok, here's another for you or anyone really...

when you talked to your OM, did you guys ask each other about sex with your BS's? my husbands OW would ask him ALL THE TIME when and if we had sex. and he would tell her if she asked.

he said he never talked shit about her husband and he never asked about sex with him because he felt that wasn't his place, yet he allowed her to do all that.

she asked him if he bought me anything for christmas and when he told her he bought me a northface coat, she was PISSED. did you guys get pissed at each other for buying your Spouses presents for things like christmas or birthdays?

these questions are so stupid, but i'm just so curious how things work in the minds of people who are in that situation. i guess im wondering if my husband is full of shit or if he's being honest with me.


me-BW(29)
WH(31)
divorce will be final 1-19-10

Posts: 205 | Registered: May 2009 | From: ohio
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, June 2nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We didn't ask questions about sex with our spouses or about gifts given to spouses. I would never have been upset about him giving a gift to his wife. When I say I compartmentalized the affair completely, I'm not kidding. We were very supportive of each other's families and if we discussed our marriages it was to be supportive and give advice about making things better. I know that sounds weird, but that's the way it was.

We were in denial abut the fact that we were directly damaging each other's marriages, though! So at the same time I was giving him suggestions on how to work through an issue with his wife, I was pulling him away emotionally from her without even seeing the conflict between those two activities. We thought we were good friends. We behaved as good friends do, except that we were having an affair. And we never understood that having an affair meant we weren't friends at all.

Now you're making me wonder if anyone else had an experience like mine ...


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


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