i don't know if he is foggy. up until yesterday morning he really thought he could remain "friends" with the multiple other women. he told me yesterday afternoon that he finally realizes these are not friends at all. he also told me that if they call and he accidentally answers (he deleted the contact numbers from his phone) that he will try to be civil to them but distant and he will try the most to not contact them back. I told him that was not enough and that i didn't even want him to hear them out. he promised he would make an excuse to hang up quickly. does this sound foggy to you?
tried23, i'm not ok with it. i'm the kind of person that needs to analyze (and sometimes overanalyze everything). i dont think being "over it" is healthy at all.
he is showing me he loves me (holding hands, is with me whenever possible, date nights, etc.). but when we talk about the As, he screws up, becomes defensive and withdrawn, and every comment i make he interrupts with a "but..." i told him yesterday how these "buts" make me feel and i guess he sees what i mean.
I really think he thinks he is stronger than he really is. he said that after the ONS he felt disgusted but still continued to contact the OW because he thought she was a friend. he thought it would never cross the line again with her, but they had cyber later on. he has never been really good at showing his weaknesses in front of people (FOO issues).
we are not in MC or IC. we were, but she was awful. i want to go to one but because i'm still debating whether to R or not, i've been hesitant to go. he also said he refuses to open up to total strangers (but yet he is afraid of showing his weakness to friends and family, go figure).
[This message edited by icbtih8 at 10:23 AM, June 3rd (Wednesday)]
Beauty is a calling...a call "to transfigure what has harden or was wounded within you"
-- John O'Donohue
Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien
For me it took a long time and I almost chickened out regarding full disclosure but this site and the WS's I have been able to PM helped give me courage and continue to give me strength in moving forward and rebuilding the marriage from ground up the way it should have always been.
How likely is she to keep her word?
would it do any good if I were to express my feelings of anger and sadness to WH?
(he is seeing OW)
Do the 180 on him. If he is still seeing the OW, then telling him of your feelings will look like begging to him, and that's the last thing he's interested in listening to right now. Show him that you will be fine on your own, that you can shine on your own.
Were any of the WS's cruel and completely irrational during the fog?
My WH has not had an actual conversation with me about anything... us, the kids, nothing... since he left us 3 months ago. I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to at least parent with him, as I am giving up hope (or desire) for R. He is either hateful, cruel, or ignores me.
Can you pease help me understand how the person I married is completely gone and replaced with someone who treats me as if I am garbage on the side of the road?
Is this how it is going to be from now on?
Are you aware that you are doing it, or is it part of the fog?
I can see where what you say makes sense, but to ask him, he is happier than ever and doesn't give a damn about me!
Is this just the "new" him, or is there a possibility that he will stop being so mean and hateful?
My guess is as long as your WH is seeing the OW, it will just fuel the fire for him. Remember that he is allowing the feedback he gets from OW to dictate his thoughts and emotions right now. So the more he sees from you that reflects the destruction he is causing, the more he will go cry to OW about what a b*$ch his W is and how great OW is compared to you. It's not true, but it's how he will see the world.
US is right - you need to 180 him. He needs to see not anger or sadness, but to experience what he is losing by making the choices he is making. He needs to understand the consequences of his actions more than the pain you are going through.
Based on his having to face what it will be like to fully lose you, he will need to make his choice. No fencesitting. And once he makes his choice, your path forward will be much more clear.
I hadn't answered your original post because I didn't see my behavior as directly matching your situation. But I do think I understand a bit about what's happening.
Yes, he's foggy. If you look at this as being an addiction (it was for me), it makes a little more sense. I've watched Paramedics when they have treated drug addicts who have OD'd. Usually the counter drug of choice is Narcan. There is a predetermined dosage which they are authorized to give to the addict. If they slam it all in at once, it not only restores crucial functions like breathing and heart rate. It also "takes away the high" and leaves the addict with side effects like massive headache, pain, and the mental realization of the reality around them. It's very common for the response to be combative. Face it, they are pissed you took away their high.
Now look at your own situation. You are pushing the "Anti-A" drug. The one that takes away the high of his A, and has the painful side effects of him facing the damage he has done. While not all WS's will react this way, some will get angry, and even combative because you "took away their high".
For those who have never experienced an addiction, this is a very difficult thing to understand. All I can say is those feeling of addiction and withdrawal for me were very powerful and very real. They were wrong, but that didn't make them any less tough to go through.
Unfortunately, I think the fog will last longer with *any* contact, even if it's required by work. So long as a WS is in the fog, contact is risky, especially something like being away at a conference. I can't answer for your wife, since I don't know her, but I do think there's a chance she won't keep her word. I probably wouldn't have at that point under those circumstances. That said, I wouldn't have restarted the affair under any circumstances, but I would have talked to him, which would have kept the emotional connection alive.
I hope I'm wrong.
Why do you have only limited transparency? Why would you agree to even a polite hello?
I only agreed to limited contact because the work she does is important (runs a non-profit)-- and this contact is part of it. Believe me I do not like it and she knows.
Limited transparency because she "just doesn't know how she feels or what she will decide." If she decides to commit to R-- then ok, until then she wants "some" privacy.
I know it takes time to defog. I also know she is in withdrawl. My description of the affair (fantasy) and my description of op (liar cheater) are right on because when I told her she almost physically collapsed. But, it also put her in denial anger tirade.
She gets home Fri. Then she will go to her family's vacation place with the kids for a week. She is traveling with her Mom who is furious at her, and she will be there with her sister, her kids and her mom and dad who are all angry at her choices. Her dad has warned all the guests to make sure she actually deals with the kids w/o help so she can see what I do every day--mother in law told me this in secret (I am a stay at home dad).
When they get back, she has two choices: R or D. The papers are already ready and I will have them on the table. She knows this. It made her upset.
I guess that is the silly long of the limited NC and transparency. Sorry. I tend to ramble around here. It is here I feel save, though.
I only agreed to limited contact because the work she does is important (runs a non-profit)
I was fortunate enough (if you can call anything in this mess "fortunate") to not have my A be work related. When it is, it really presses the issue of which is more important - family or work. I enjoy my job in general and feel I am pretty fairly compensated for my contributions. But given a work related A which required ongoing contact with the AP, I can't see the M surviving that ongoing contact. I would be forced to find another job in order to both allow healing as well as to prove through my actions that my family is more important than my job.
Limited transparency because she "just doesn't know how she feels or what she will decide."
This is what I feel is the most critical element in determining whether or not R has a chance. In my case, I was given no real time to "mull it over". D-Day was on Saturday, and my BW was clear. By Monday I had to make a choice. Call a counselor or call an attorney. There was no room for waffling, trying to decide whether I wanted in or out of the M.
I see this as a huge contributor to R being successful. By having to make the commitment to our M and going immediate NC, it started the defogging process. The fog will continue to last as long as contact with OP is maintained, and will linger for a period of time afterward until the effects of withdrawal can be overcome.
It looks like your longer term plan will carry the same impact (she is either in or out when she gets back from this vacation). As long as you hold to that, there's a chance to make things work out.
The papers are already ready and I will have them on the table. She knows this. It made her upset.
Being confronted with the consequences of our actions will make a WS upset. It hurts, but it's a necessary pain that we have to go through in order to get knocked off the fence and choose our future path.
I wish you the best of luck upon her return.
But I know that there is NC now and since that is in place I am able to think without going into overdrive KWIM?
I am left really wondering what love means to my H. I have thought about asking him but then I realized that I wouldnt know what to say if I was asked that ?.
What does it mean to me? Our life has been a difficult one to say the least. We have always had alligators to fight so to speak. But to me what I would say would be...
Love is knowing that I can count on you. Knowing that you will always have my back. Knowing that I can rely on you to get me out of or help me out of whatever life throws us. Feeling that I was the center of his world and knowing that he was in mine. Knowing that he was a person I would lay my life on the line for. Just being able to look at him and feel my chest swell with pride and desire for him. Watching him interact and teach our sons to be men would also make my heart swell with pride.
Sometimes just watching him be would feel my heart with love. Sometimes when I would watch him do everyday tasks around the house I would feel so desirous of him. Look I have had a sexual relationship (before we were married) where there wasnt any love involved and it is NOT THE SAME. I have always been sexually attracted to him and sometimes when I would be for no apparent reason that would make me feel love. I know maybe
Anyway these are things I thought I could use to explain love but......after dday so many of these things dont ring true anymore however I still love my H so how would I explain it?
How could he explain it when he also told her he loved her? Does love just not mean the same to him? Is it shallow? I dunno we have been married for 22 yrs and she was not the first to try and get my H she was just the one that succeded
If it wasnt that way for so many years how could that have changed? How could he have loved me all this time and then tell her the same?
Sorry just rambling and trying to get thoughts organized.
My OM and I thought we loved each other, but I realize now I didn't love him. I loved how he made me feel about myself. The rest was just based on a fantasy. There's a quote I like:
"True love doesn't happen right away; it's an ever-growing process. It develops after you've gone through many ups and downs, when you've suffered together, cried together, laughed together."
- Ricardo Montalban
I think it's easier to say what love isn't than what it is. And if you really loved someone, you would *never* help them destroy their marriage. But I think many WS's (myself included) get fooled by all the positive reinforcement by the AP to think we love them.
How could he explain it when he also told her he loved her? Does love just not mean the same to him? Is it shallow?
with xOM, it was toxic/addictive love. Emptiness love. Didn't connect emotionally. I was in love with the idea of being in love with xOM. I did tell xOM that I loved him. I was acting like an actress in the fantasy movie and was infatuating myself by saying those words.
After A was ended, with H, it is healthy and deep love. Long lasting love, like a coal. True connection.
How could he have loved me all this time and then tell her the same?
During A, the love I felt toward H, was more like motherly (brotherly) love and I put the xOM on the pedestal and created him as ideal boyfriend (eros love) in my head.
After so long of NC, I finaly saw the A for what it was.
I don't love xOM. Now the thoughts of xOM make me cringe, and then feel indifferent about him.