Forgivennotforget posted this on 1/26/09. I read it over and over. "Keep in mind that with time our pain eases and our R with our S's becomes more of a reality. For the OW, the pain increases with time as they realize what they did mean to our H's and as they come to terms with the reality that they no longer have a place in their lives. OW now have to accept that other than being a freebie piece of ass" that's all they meant. I think in a lot of cases, our H's were relieved to finally be free of them.
Also regarding any conflict from OW. One time after d-day my husband made the comment to OW that his life was F'd up and she got nasty and said "your life Im not even living at home" as soon as she was confrontational, self serving, selfish "it was the major nail in the coffin".
[This message edited by aries61 at 1:27 PM, January 27th (Tuesday)]
[This message edited by aries61 at 1:25 PM, January 27th (Tuesday)]
For me one of the basic truths that I live my life by and always believed was that loving someone meant you protected them from harm, you recognized their needs and tried to do your part to meet them, you showed your love in words, deeds and actions.
FNF - I agree 100% with this. And, although they may experience harm or pain, that doesn't mean that we don't *try* to protect them. In my mind, one of the most important ways I can protect my 3 girls is to instill in them a strong sense of self-worth and good values. Then, when they are on their own, hopefully, they can protect themselves (my protection living on).
That is why I will never understand what he did. His thoughts and actions were in no way loving. They were hurtful and damaging. He sees that now but it doesn't change the past.
I just sent a text to EO to see if they ever criticized him or were negative....I am betting no. He has told me that after sex he justed wanted to "run away" from them. I also know that with the LTAs he knew "pretty quickly" that it was meaningless, he didn't love them, but he like the illicit sex. I think it made him feel "manly"
Hopefully, he is starting to learn what a REAL man is and it has NOTHING to do with parking lot sex.
[This message edited by hurtshirley at 12:37 PM, January 27th (Tuesday)]
I'm actually an oldbie (??) I just don't post very often.
But I accept the hug - Thank you.
As inciteful and funny and charming some of her posts are, she's TWICE that in person!
And to prove that time is healing us, we only teared up once and laughed 40x that. The first time we met, she brought a box of tissues!
I hate the circumstances, but I am so, so glad I met her.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
I am woman, hear me ROAR!!
What you accept, you teach!
Me 53, WS 54
Reconciled for life!
DD 24, DS 27
I do feel out of everywhere I have looked the people here are the most supportive and best to be around. I get some greast pick me ups and laughs here!!
I'll never know what it is like to be married and loved whole heartedly.
I'll try to make this short, ha! Last night I was thinking, WH asked what was wrong and I said, not sure. I took a shower, got thinking and when we went to bed started talking about the emotional aspect of the A and wondering why it doesn't bother me more. Issue #1- WH has said he doesn't like to talk in bed when he's half asleep- My problem is that I realize after issues that have come up with IC that I feel really uncomfy and awakward just randomly talking about the A, especially when he's sitting watching tv and I have to ask to talk when it's just to kinda spew some thoughts....so, I feel more comfy in bed...he came to bed and was talking about the day wide awake so I jumped on the opportunity.....we had only talked about 20 mins maybe and then he said "I don't give a FUCK about what OW thinks/feels". I've heard this time & Time again....yet I wasn't talking about how she felt or thought...I was talking about how he was affected by her reactions to the EA. Anyways...we kinda ended the conversation and he fell asleep within a minute. This ALWAYS makes me fume....so, I probably shouldn't have but I nudged him and said, "do you have any feelings after a conversation like this?" He said ya, but I dont know what to say or do. I then compared it to how he could just fall asleep right after d-day too when I would lay there crying, when he should feel horribly remorseful and scared for his M and family....I don't remember what else was said afterwards but he got up all pissed off and left for a while....came back to bed later and we fell asleep, late.
(This isn't too short...)
So, this morning he wakes up & goes on like everything is just peachy. I've had enough at this point. I called him after we were both headed to work, kids in daycare and he didn't bring anything up....like an hour later he calls me and I told him that I have an issue with him always "putting me in my place" (his anger reaction last night) and then acting like nothing happened. We talked forever....ended kinda poorly, then talked more later on....ended a little better. I don't even know where to begin.....
He wants me to process & talk (supposedly) but most of the time it ends shitty.....and he said he feels like it's never going to end (A crap), I don't believe anything he says anyways and that's why we go on & on & on and there's no sense beacuse I will never trust him and I make my own conclusions anyways. I told him I can't obviously believe everything he says and that if he would talk about his own feelings/thoughts on a day to day basis AND about the A then it would be much easier to believe. Instead, I have to pull everything out knowing that he KNOWS what answer I want...and KNOWING that he can create whatever fucking lie he wants. I feel like the conversation this morning was very disrespectful- He was telling me about how I had to talk about sex details last week...and he was kinda nasty about the wording on the sex details (the issue has been about swallowing & cuming on her face...and he used terminology like "being bothered about her taking his load and his cum down her throat")..and pretty much said, you believe x, y, and z and won't listen to what I have to say about it. He was pissed that I doubt myself & our sex life as a result of the A....I just don't understand why I WOULDN'T doubt these things?!? My thought is that I shared my feelings about the sex issues...as I did here last week and I thought TALKING about my feelings was a good thing, obviously not for him. He at one point said something about "getting it through your thick skull"....yup, another insult if you ask me. Just call me stupid please.
So, I told him that I am willing to give a lot- I'm willing to move on, throw everything aside and trust him to give us a chance to be happy but that this A is part of US and it's not going away fully...he expressed that he lives his life just waiting for the next horrid moment that I will bring it up, knowing that it will turn bad again. I told him that I am willing to give a lot, but I'm not willing to put up with a lot. (of his shit basically). I'm tired of him having his angry fits and then me shutting myself off. I'm tired of him not being able to communicate his feelings about day to day or the A....which leads to conversations when he isn't in a good mood which leads to him saying hurtful things....AGH. I'm tired but somehow un-emotional. i told him to figure his shit out and figure out if he coudl live this life with me as the A happened to us. I don't want to be tortured forever if HE can't handle it. Seems like i'm going a better job accepting/intergrating than he is.
Okay...enough ranting. Sorry, I needed to get that out. Comments welcome.
[This message edited by Whatnow28 at 7:50 PM, January 27th (Tuesday)]
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
That late-night stuff did start to lessen somewhere in the second year.
I find that if I don't focus on wanting to be better sexually (or believe I'm better) than the ow I can enjoy our encounters.
I don't know how to ever get the thoughts out of my head that he said to her about how great their sexual encounters were. He wonders why I think and feel I'm second best in all aspects of this M.
Hang in there
It was a wonderful afternoon and I hope we can do this again soon.
Waaaaaah!!! I wanna play!
Waaaaaah!!! I wanna play
If you still have doubts about him, then I would say you should try to look at those analytically and see whether they are legitimate doubts due to real issues in him, or whether they are based in unrealistic fears of yours. If they are fear-based, you can work on those in IC or on your own. If they are legitimate doubts because of him, then you have to wait to see what he is able to accomplish in changing himself.
I was thinking on my 90-minute ride to school this a.m. about your idea of love and protection, and it made me remember again one of the really painful realizations of d-day and its aftermath: that my husband's idea of love and mine did not coincide.
Like yours, my idea of love pretty much parallels our society's Christian-based notions as love as kind, patient, doing good, protection of those you love, etc. While my husband paid lip service to that, I came to realize that that wasn't the notion of love that he had grown up with and internalized at all. For him, love did not include protection -- his parents "loved" him but brutalized him both emotionally and physically. The template of love that he grew up with was not nurturing and focused on taking care of others. It was a very self-centered worldview where you did what you had to do to get your needs met and were nice when it advanced your own agenda. It was really an everyman for himself attitude that he covered up with platitudes about what he thought others wanted to hear. But he did not deep down believe that people loved in the way that I did. He thought everyone based their decisions on self-interest, just that some were better than others at hiding that. Oddly enough, I think my willingness to love him even after all he did convinced him that real love was indeed possible.
When I first understood that he really didn't believe in the same kind of love that I did it was simply shocking to me and frightening. Eventually, though, I was able to feel some compassion for a person who had that absence in his life.
I had a pretty rough childhood, too, in a lot of ways. My mother is probably the least nurturing human being you can imagine, but I had the good fortune to have an aunt and a godmother who showed me what love really can be, and that made all the difference.
FNF, I know you said your H's family is a viper's brood, so he may be learning to believe in love for the first time, too. It takes a leap of faith to do that.
I like that idea BT, I never thought of it that way either. Gosh, how do I identify if it's legitimate fear or b/c of issues dh has? I dont' think that sentence has made any sense!
The template of love that he grew up with was not nurturing and focused on taking care of others. It was a very self-centered worldview where you did what you had to do to get your needs met and were nice when it advanced your own agenda. It was really an everyman for himself attitude that he covered up with platitudes about what he thought others wanted to hear. But he did not deep down believe that people loved in the way that I did. He thought everyone based their decisions on self-interest, just that some were better than others at hiding that.
Ditto that BT...same for my H. Add to that he learned that you *HURT* the ones you love. It was everywhere around him. His parent's brutal, degrading screaming matches, his brother abusing him and sexually abusing his sister, his mother's npd behavior. What he learned is that love = pain. So very, very sad. I think he is feeling love for the first time in his life. I am the one who cannot love him. I hope that comes back some day.
Gasping...it doesn't matter that it was years ago. Your dday was only 8 months ago. I hit the anger phase pretty hard at the 6-8 month phase. I remember the gals here sort of laughing/congratulating me and saying they were wondering when it would hit!
I just feel that this person that I thought I knew almost everything about, I really knew nothing about.
I spent a lot of time with my first IC on this. What I learned is that I only knew a small part of him. There was another part of himself that he didn't show anybody. In fact, he was hiding that part from himself, KWIM? We discussed this at dinner last night and he say that he is a shocked at what he did as an outsider. It was as if he was two different people back then and he didn't like the other one. I know it sounds nuts! Anyway, being the analytical numbers based person that I am, I had to try to figure what percentage of the "him" I knew that was "real" and what part was hidden and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, what part I had *projected* onto him that wasn't part of him at all....it was what I *wanted* him to be. Not easy work.