What do I do?
2years, only you can decided when enough is enough. Your H has shown no commitment to you or the M.He has continued to place his needs ahead of yours. What are the consequences of this? Are you willing to implement them? How much more can you take? Only you have these answers.
That sounds like it was a wonderful dinner! We could get used to this good treatment, yes??
Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.
solost- So sorry to hear about your crappy V-day. Hope you can stop by & give us an update.
WH & I exchanged cards last night. He gave me a book called "simple secrets of a good marriage" and a frame. I ended up skipping the massage idea & bought him Red Sox tickets instead because we've talked about it for years now and never break down & spend the money. But, it's a trip we'll take together, combined with our anniversary so it'll be great. WH gave me a letter with the card....I wanted to share it.
Hey cutie girl,
I have been wanting to write you a letter for a while now. I'm a little nervous due to the timing though. (he gave OW#2 a "love letter" last year for V-day) The more that I have thought about it, the more I want to write this letter. I just want to let you know that I love you as much if not more than I ever have before. I can't even begin to describe how much I appreciate everything that you have done for me. I am so sorry for all of the pain that I have caused you. Over the last year, I have learned so much not only about you but myself also. I know that I still have a ton of things to work on but I also feel like we are connecting better than ever before. I love you so much! I am so lucky but this also makes me sad because I realize that you deserve so much better than what I have given you. I can only hope that someday, I will be able to show you as much love as you have given me. Writing this letter, I can't help but realize how fortunate I am to have two beautiful children and a beautiful wife that loves me and cares about me no matter the situation. It is my hope that we will always be able to make each other happy and always be there for each other. I love you and want to be with you forever. I want to be there with you experiencing life together. Enjoying all the good times and being there for each other through all of the hard times. I still don't think that you realize how much you mean to me. Happy V-day. Love, WH.
It's sweet. It made me cry. And as much as I hate to say this outloud.....it is a bit triggering because of the letter last year given to OW#2. He told her she was beautiful...and it killed me and he ends up putting it in this letter. I want to hang it up & treasure it to remind myself of his genuineness....but know that OW#2 also wouldn't destroy hers like she had agreed so I wouldn't find it in the house. AGh. Trying to stay positive, trying to stay in the present......
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
1. happy v-day
2. we've had a great 2 years
3. you're beautiful
4. thanks for watching my kids & you'll be a wonderful parent
5. I know you'll be moving on & hope you won't settle for less than you deserve.
Sooo......I edited the content of the letter based on what I know, LOL.
Dear slutty whore,
Happy Valentine’s day. It’s been a great 2 years as you’ve assisted me in destroying my family, my wife, and myself. It’s been a great 2 years of you lying down to put out for sex and putting up with the selfishness of my behaviors. It’s been a great 2 years of both of us living life as a lie. I want to thank you for watching the children. Without you in their lives, they may have hope that their family will remain intact and that their parents can give to each other. Thank you for caring so much about my children that you chose to tear their family apart. Thank you for caring so much about my children that they have built a close yet false relationship with someone that is lying about their intentions daily. Thank you for being involved so that when my wife finds out about our A, you can also be ripped out of their lives.
While I know that you will be moving on with your life, I hope you don’t settle for the scumbags you deserve. You will become a wonderful parent as I can surely see how you put yourself first before everyone else. You will be a wonderful parent as you continue to subject your children to shitty relationships where men use you for sex. You will become a wonderful parent as you teach your children your fucked up lack of morals & values.
You are beautiful with all your slutty tattoos and piercings, even the ones that are half ripped out & semi healed up. You are so beautiful with your boobs hanging out of your shirt every day for the world to see, your thongs so respectfully exposed, and your ass crack hanging out of your jeans as you have no ass to hold them up. You are so beautiful with your disgusting cigarettes hanging out of your mouth & the smell of cigarettes on your clothes & breath.
I hope you have a great Valentine’s as I go to bed beside my wife tonight as I do every night.
The man who loves to use you as his sex slave.
What ya think?
At church this morning I asked God to please talk to me. Help me to know The priest talked a lot about pleasing God here on earth adn doing so by forgiving those who don't really deserve to be forgive, loving our spouses even during hard times b/c we know God allowed us to be together and will make it all right in the end. So it did speak to me.
First I want to apologize for not getting back here right away, something came up but I’m here now.
Second, I want to say that this is long, but a couple of pages back I asked When were you able to finally hear what your WS had to tell you about how they hurt themselves etc by having their affair. A couple of you guys asked me:
Are you talking of the remorse/guilt/long term effects of the A, pain they're caused, etc? I'm curious to specifically what areas you are saying that he was hurt from.
Ruth, I think I have been ready to listen to my H about 1.5 years past dday but he is not ready to face himself.
I am interested to hear what your H has to say if you are able to share.
I will confess that when we began talking and H told me that he understood that he hurt me and the kids but he was also hurt from his affair I did want to say Bullshit. Glad I didn’t.
Guilt/remorse etc are definitely there, but that is not necessarily what I’m talking about.
My understanding is that he began to destroy himself. I will try to write out what I mean. Through all of this please understand that everything he said he also peppered with things like “I know that was wrong” or “I know I was hurting you and the kids” or more important “I see now how messed up that is”
He began by saying that he let himself down. I know we can all say “DUH!” but what he began to describe next was more than just the usual "I’m disappointed in me" thing. He began to describe actions and a self-destructive path that was really bent on destroying the person he is.
Anyway, so he began.
He told me that he really tried to “keep up with her”, sexually and (I’m guessing here) in attitude. He said that at first he thought her way of being was liberating and free and when he compared it to me and us it really seemed so. It seems that she had a ‘don’t give a damn’ type of attitude (and of course as we all know a very narrow scope for compassion – if it didn’t involve her well it didn’t matter). The more involved he got with her the more he tried really tried to stay in her good books. He would apologize for any slight he made, he would apologize for any slight she told him was his fault even if it was hers, basically she shit all over him and in his need to sort out some family of origin issues (at the time still unknown to him) he betrayed himself by thinking that he was standing up for himself and setting things right.
Sexually, he told me it was sort of the same. She is firmly into the BDSM lifestyle (She eventually married her dom). She is more into the pain, and limits and especially pushing those limits (my personal view is that she is into this stuff for all the wrong reasons and I can explain that view later). So he again hurt himself because in trying to “keep up with her” he tried to enter into this world for her and do the things she wanted him to do. That is the key here. Things she wanted him to do.
He told me he did most of them but he said he couldn’t feel good about himself afterwards. She wanted him to rape her. He told me he tried but couldn’t; he just couldn’t cross that line and she got pissed off at him so he would feel even worse than before. (You will have no idea how horrified I was feeling – not because of a rape fantasy but at the very thought of somebody pushing someone into doing something that goes so against their grain and that somebody doesn’t care). He told me that sometimes after whatever it was they had done he would cry.
You have to understand, he wasn’t just talking light bondage and stuff here (something I think most of us might not admit to but even if we don’t partake in it a little, can see how having free reign to give someone else pleasure and not have them try to do their own thing and interrupt can be a lot of fun).
Anyway, in trying to keep her happy, he was systematically killing off parts of himself. He was slowly becoming a different person and that person was in no way admirable. I liken it to a form of suicide. All that was good was being killed off so that he could continue. What he finds so unforgivable is that he truly thought and believed that he wasn’t changing, that he was being true to himself, standing up for himself and the scrapes of approval he got from her were real.
He now sees how self-destructive it all was. He sees how toxic the relationship was (and if you can twist your head around the fact that it was an affair, and just see a relationship it is mind boggling how toxic a situation it was). He also sees how he was hurting himself by this absolute betrayal of the very essence of who he is.
Two things of what he has told me really struck me.
I asked him, to think of those times when sexually he was doing things he would rather not. Then I asked him to reverse the sex roles. What if he were the female and she the male. He was really quiet and said he would call it coercion and/or rape. He didn’t see that at the time.
The second thing that has struck me is the depth of self betrayal. I really can’t see how he was not committing living suicide.
Anyway I'm sorry this was so long,
[This message edited by Ruthie at 10:02 AM, February 16th (Monday)]
I don't know if you all are spiritual or not. I am. At church this morning I asked God to please talk to me. Help me to know The priest talked a lot about pleasing God here on earth adn doing so by forgiving those who don't really deserve to be forgive, loving our spouses even during hard times b/c we know God allowed us to be together and will make it all right in the end. So it did speak to me.
I remember at one point I just didn't know what I was going to do. I thought i was on the road to forgiveness but even to myself at the time I knew there was still way too much resentment there.
Anyway around then in church one day the sermon happened to be about forgiveness and of course the story of the Prodigal Son. I think I actually really began to understand the story that day.
I know i have found myself thinking about often since then.
Do they really believe that as long as they kept coming home to us we should be assured of their love? It is so twisted, so utterly obscene.
I feel that no matter how many times I try to move on, there are so many reminders out there pulling me back down, picking at old wounds.
You are twice as far time-wise than me. As the 3rd year since Dday begins, I think of Doris Day's song playing in the car as we drove home last wkend... Que Sera, Sera and how the chorus brought tears. For those not familiar:
Que Sera, Sera,
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours, to see
Que Sera, Sera
What will be, will be.
V-day is past. I just put fresh water in the roses I received and I miss FWH, who is again away on business. I love him. I hate his choices that led to betrayal. I wanted to grow old with him but not age 5 yrs over the last two. I really need to find something positive to concentrate on...
An LTA is an LTA is an LTA...
We had our ceremony and it was more than I ever hoped for. (I will try to post a picture) He planned everything to be perfect and it was. I was not expecting the emotion from my H. He cried throughout the entire ceremony. I wanted to share the vow he wrote to me.
On this day I stand before you and proudly announce my love for you. I proclaim that my love for you is the fire in my belly that sustains me. I dedicate myself to you and our life together. I declare that all the best of all that I know stems from you and the life that we have built together. I honor and respect you beyond my ability to express. I will always cherish and keep you safe and free from harm.
All that I have is yours
All that I am is yours
All that I will ever be is yours and yours alone
I love you my dearest friend,
We then spent the night in an ocean view suite, fireplace, champagne, roses,
dinner & dancing overlooking
beautiful York Harbor...
It was splendid.
Thank you all for caring..
A relative who attends the church said the Minister used our ceremony as his sermon on Sunday because he was so inspired by the emotion of it and that it was just for us....two older people who had overcome "the rough times" most marriages have. That night at the Inn
people stopped at our table to say they couldn't stop watching us enjoy ourselves... ( personally I think they enjoyed watching a big lady get swung around the dance floor that much!) but never the less, we exuded happiness.
To all of you that did not have a good Vday, there is hope! this is the 1st Vday in 10 years that I was not the one to shed tears. God bless
It must have taken some nerve to sit through that lecture.
I recently did a school project with DD on Dr Suess...and felt awful when I found out that he was a WH and his BS committed suicide and he M'd the MOW (BS's BF). He even justified it.
Do they really believe that as long as they kept coming home to us we should be assured of their love? It is so twisted, so utterly obscene
Your H's relationship with OW sounds v similar to my H's relationship with OW#1. My IC called it an abusive relationship (she hesitates to say affair), where H was emotionally and verbally abused by OW.
He said that it was a sick relationship, he could never use the word "love" for it but he kept going back for some 12 years, but didnt understand why.
However, he has not, to the best of my knowledge, explored this in his IC. I hope he does..for his sake.
Ruth,once H ended that relationship, did you find that he tried to put you in that "toxic" role?
That he needed to have a "bad" woman in his life?
I say this because this is what H did with me. No matter how "good" I was, he demonised me to justify the A. However, when he became involved with OW#2 (who was different from OW#1..then again he has never said anything bad about her...she was the "love" one), he had me replace OW#2 as the bad one. He even says now how "bad" I was in those years...even though I know I wasnt. Does this make sense?
My IC says he does this because he needs a punishing figure in his life due to his issues. And when I give in to my triggers or vent or meltdown, that I just reinforce this for him.
Ruth, what made your H want to delve into his life? How did you get him to share with you?Thanks.
H's letter was sweet. Hold onto it. It may not all ring true now cos it is still early days, but one day it will.
Re your letter to OW
Good for you for getting it out. However I hope you dont mean to send it to her, right?
I could not embed it....how do you do that???
Use photobucket like you did, but copy & paste the "IMG" code instead of the http code
No plans to send the letter to OW#2. I just wanted to tear apart the letter he had written based on reality.
Sigh. Sigh with a smile.
That's what i felt reading your post.
I will be answering your questions, but right now I also am, doing laundry and getting dinner on so I can only type in bits and spurts.
Ruth, once H ended that relationship, did you find that he tried to put you in that "toxic" role? That he needed to have a "bad" woman in his life?
No, actually he didn’t try to put me into the ‘toxic’ role. During the time that he was involved with her, he was very mean and abusive towards me but I think that was the whole justification thing at work.
Actually, one thing that has been consistent since D-day is that H has told me again and again that I am a good Mom and that he would not want anyone else to be our kid’s Mom. I have just recently begun to find out why this has been so important to him. After H ended the relationship, one of the things that he has been wrestling with is the fact that I actually had always accepted him for him. Part of his need (?) is to have to earn the acceptance. And that is where the FOO issues come in.
what made your H want to delve into his life?
WhoooBoy! Sheer unbridled stubbornness.
No actually, it has been a combination of things. First our MC and I kept hammering away at him about some aspects of his childhood. Not everyday of course or every session but it came up again and again and again. As H began feeling more “safe” with our MC he also began thinking that maybe there was something to what was being said. H has had different IC’s all of whom have said basically the same thing.
Then I found H’s estranged Dad (they had not seen each other for about 42 yrs when they were reunited).
BUT, even with all of that I don’t think that things would have “gelled” except for a person that H found on his own. She is a spiritual healer/peer counsellor and they have become friends. (I have met her) She is the one who is able to talk the language that H hears.
I really think it has been the combination of all of these things. That has helped him want to delve into his life.
How did you get him to share with you?
Again I think it has been the combination of everything.
I like to think that my acceptance of him, not what he did but him, refusing to hate him (even though I tried and he knows it) and not allowing him to get away with saying things like he is a monster etc was the ticket.
but really, I think we have been extremely lucky in the timing and people who have been around to help.
I just asked H this question (figure he is the one who really knows) This is what he told me:
He says the passage of time and his ability to reflect on things at his own pace has been a big part of it. He doesn’t like to be in counselling but realized that the way to not have to do it anymore was to begin to make changes. So he began with his present IC, our MC and he found he was getting reinforcement at home with me because I never did hate him, because he sees that I really do want what is best for him and I never closed the door, not matter how frustrating he figures it might have been for me, I never closed the door on him.
I hope this helps in some way.
you look so happy, congrats, its so nice to see someone come out of this "happy"
Hello to those newbies who have ventured in. Good advice and lots of support here. Welcome.
Well I have returned from the best weekend of my life... to all of you that had a good Vday, congratulations.
Ruthie, I read your post about how your WH felt he was hurting during the A. I had that too. I’ll let FWH keep that thought and belief if he chooses, I find it incomprehensible. He had an affair b/c I was too perfect. Well, he should have f*cked off then. He couldn’t come up to my high standards. It was an escape, he couldn’t cope with the pressures and he saw I was which made him feel a failure. This all sounds very plausible, but I still think having an affair is hardly self-flagellation for failure. My H’s sense of failure was when he couldn’t finish it. He couldn’t finish it first time around (MOW is ex-fiancee), so what made him think he had the guts to do it this time? He used phrases like “this has been killing me”, “it’s been a canker growing inside”, “she won’t leave me alone”. He said he coped with it by putting it in a box, batting her texts back to her, seeing her when she threatened to tell me even though he had told her it would be over once I knew. He said the relationship was destructive, as it had been before, that my love enriched his life and hers suffocated him. The fact is he lost control of the relationship. He pursued her and became the pursued. He also thought about suicide. His was self-inflicted. I hate the fact that HIS need for outside attention made ME feel life wasn’t worth the living. Frankly, I don’t care about my H’s sense of self-betrayal and thoughts of suicide b/c they were HIS choices. That claim just makes me furious. Mostly I see him as a cake eating selfish bastard who was never going to get caught.
Put my rant down to the drugs!
Do they really believe that as long as they kept coming home to us we should be assured of their love?
Can't you see I'm in a take no shit mood??
WN – I would definitely get a massage for you for antiversary day. Take a day off and do nice things for yourself. And I thought WH’s letter to you was beautiful, although I can see how it may have been triggery if it was like the one sent to OW. Your revision made me lol!
A new home. A new life. A new M. Its going to be great!!!
In case you missed this at initiation, you get a little bow to wear as well as a Tribal Necklace.
Fadingmemories – what a beautiful weekend. I’m still wiping the tears away from reading your post – congratulations to both of you!
Welcome beas – you don’t need to make major decisions right now regarding R or D. Take care of yourself as best you can – the decisions can wait until you’re ready.
Welcome iwantamiracle and 2yrsinthedark – sorry for the reason you’re here, but glad you found us. Keep posting and/or lurking; you’ll find lots of good advice here from people who know where you’re coming from.
I feel that no matter how many times I try to move on, there are so many reminders out there pulling me back down, picking at old wounds.
one of the things that he has been wrestling with is the fact that I actually had always accepted him for him. Part of his need (?) is to have to earn the acceptance. And that is where the FOO issues come in.
I think things are going well here. We had a good weekend but have not talked seriously yet. WH has always agreed to talk when I request it, but of course does not initiate the conversation. And I didn't want to "spoil" a great weekend with talk about the A. So real life will begin again, but this time we'll create our new reality and our new M. I'm extremely optomistic, but wondering if I'm letting him off too easily?
I'll be looking for an IC for me and an MC for us -- we'll see what the advice is there. And of course, any advice from y'all is welcome!
Welcome back,Ukg.I heard yellow was the new black.
I am pleased that you are allowing the men in the house to take care of you. Relax and enjoy.
Thank you (and your H)for answering me.
My H told me the other night that he loves me and I think he really believes that. I think I am the closest he has ever been to "love" in that I have seen his good and bad...and I am still here next to him. I think that means something to him.Not long after dday#2, he said that he was so relieved that everything had come out; that he was so tired of living lies as he had been living like that for so long. He also once told me that he lost himself a long time ago and just kept placing different faces on, being different people in different situations. I had noticed that (his accent would even change - I thought it was all my imagination). He wants to find out who he really is but just doesnt know how to go about it. His IC doesnt seem to help either.
In a way, this is one of my fears about him now...that I am seeing just another face and not the real him, KWIM?
I know BT has given you some sound advice re your 13yr old son. They do try the limits, but you just have to stand your ground and get boring with your lectures on manners and behaviour. I hate rows and yelling and slamming doors. I have been known to remove bedroom doors, cut off electrical plugs to tv's and consoles, wade into bedrooms gathering up all in my wake into bin liners, leaving them by the dustbin and the vacuum in the middle of the room. I have refused to do washing, gathered up and put out for recycling school books, excluded from meals and said when they were 16 they could leave home and I would even buy an Ikea starter pack.... I have held by one principle: Buddy, I’ll tell you once – nicely and with an explanation. I’ll tell you a second time and give you consequences if you don’t listen and adhere. The third time is the consequence. I sound harsh, but I’m not. I learned fast with having three close together, moving often, a husband away a few nights a week and no family support other than at the end of a telephone line. As they each reached the age of unreason, I just stood my ground and would tell them to come talk to me when they had something sensible to say. As BT says, don’t engage when they’re hyped up. Or be overly nice and understanding - you’ll just get that back in your face. Be indifferent. The whole WORLD is against them – surely you knew that?!
I’m sure your medical symptoms are exacerbated by stress. You are always telling everyone else here to take time out for “me” time. It is the best medicine, put some time aside for YOU. He just doesn’t attach the same importance to some things as you do. I used to worry about what would happen to the kids if I wasn’t around. I think we all do. Your H seems to be the man of many coats. I can partly relate to that, because FWH said he was someone else when he was with MOW. Of course he was, he was back to being 20, single, without responsibility and had the perfect mirror in her to see himself as she wanted him to be. Her KISA. Ugh.
SoL, did you send that email? I liked LostH’s version. She’s just a pathetic nobody with no life of her own.
WN, the letter to you from your H is a good sign. He wanted to do it, even though he knew it could be thrown back at him. He took the risk anyway, so kudos to him. I liked your letter vent about OW! You have some other significant dates coming up. How about doing something for you on the anti-v day? And what plans do you have for your birthday? I’m terrible for not wanting anything to do with H on those dates. I want different dates just for us, ones that mean nothing in times past. Although with the five years this time around and four years previously, I’d be hard pressed to find some.
I thought about this one - October 28th. Two days before FWH’s b’day , St Jude’s day. Patron saint of lost causes!
Gettingthru – the healing process can’t happen quick enough. I’m bored with doing nothing. I cant even sit on the phone due to the stitches round my ears, although they should dissolve soon. But I’m glad yellow is good. I’ve got this cream that is supposed to do something with the bruising and swelling. Doing exactly what the consultant and his troops are telling me cos I reckon they know best.
When we were on our way home from our spa weekend before my surgery, H talked about a couple of early thirty-something friends who came into the sauna. One said he was having his daughter the following weekend and was going to take her skiing. We talked about how it is the norm for kids to have their split weekends and holidays and all their spare time organised by their divorced parents. I asked him if he had considered he might be a statistic. That when I found out, he would be one of those weekend fathers to DS4 and that the other three might cut him off and not ever want to see him and he would only see DS4. He said he never allowed the thought to enter his head, so he couldn’t talk about it, even now. He simply could not allow the thought of divorce and all that it would entail into his mind. Period. He blanked it. Didn't go there. Even though there were the other D’s and infidelities going off around us and him uttering his opinion as to how the children were being treated. I cannot imagine being able to compartmentalise to that degree and was really shocked at his ability to do that. He never, ever thought about the consequences of his affair – it was too dreadful. I have to say, it left me speechless.
Long ramble. Wandering off now.