Shirley, I have been dashing in and reading, but not time to post. I caught your OW meet time and thought “go, girl, go and take no shit!!” But as to the pathetic "poor me" she was trying, for fuck’s sake, what is it with these OW’s that it becomes all about THEM? Have they no sense of right and wrong, or what they are doing to innocent parties? I conclude that they are self seeking, self absorbed, selfish individuals who are looking for that mirror. I had the “but we were in love” crap. THIS WAS HIS WIFE SHE WAS TALKING TO, how the fuck did she think I felt, what about the fact I loved him too and had done for nearly 30yrs??? She never said sorry, she never asked for my forgiveness, she never recognised that what she did was plain WRONG. Nope, it was how HER heart had been broken by this callous man. I would LOVE to have her Christmas card list! But shirley, OW not telling her BH? Ooops. She might live to regret that. But I’m glad that this one worked out for you too. Can you consign them to the OW trash bin now? Hugs and very well done you! Phew! Now, where’s the wine ……….?
LostH, is he playing mindgames with you? Don’t let it get to you. If he lies and deceives, that’s his problem. He doesn’t know what a level playing field is, imo. Btw, there is nothing wrong with your attitude that a good cup of coffee thrown against a wall doesn’t cure, that’ll show him you’re not a vindictive bitch!
BTW did you read the thread on NLP and mirroring a while back? I was cos every one applies to my H. >GULP<
Miracle, another OW?? Okay, when do you next go to MC and when is his next IC? It sounds like he has sunk to a very low level and this could be why he is not coming clean with you. He has to realise that these “indiscretions”, call them what you will, are not going to be buried. They are festering wounds that need serious attention and if he doesn’t reveal all, the marriage and any future he wants with you is going to die. He needs a serious slap back to reality. Please remember that he is wanting it all to go away, just disappear into a hole in the ground and for you to never know just how bad it had got. For him it was just the easy way out, never thinking you would know or that he would have to face himself and be so very, very ashamed. He must feel like he was prostituting himself. This is NOT about you. This is HIS failing, not yours. If you feel you must take a break, then do it. A brief absence might bring him up short. I guess you could step out on the 180 for a bit and see if that helps you. Miracle sweetie, I am so sorry. (((((miracle)))))
Meanwhile, I’ve been out and about. I’ve not had the showdown with FWH about his possible other A(‘s?), but I don’t see how he can cover up when the docs show he was emotionally gone at least two yrs before. And then maybe some before that b/c that’s when I bought the first “company” computer. So when he started is anyone’s guess.
Why oh why is nothing, fucking NOTHING open and honest? WTF is wrong with him? Sometimes I think it would be easier to deal with his death than his affair(s). As long as I didn’t have to deal with his death and then find out about the affair. And days like today, I just didn’t want to come home at all. He is such a fuckwit.
i had also posted after this that i had a small respite from my horniness...i had had a conversation with a man and while i was talking he just started to talk over me,as though i were invisible and made it all about him...that respite lasted about an hour or two and then it was back....."its baack"
uk...i'm sorry you are also having a hard week....
lh2...i read your profile...you also do not have a before...it really sucks doesn't it....
i am trying to get to know each of you here in this forum...i feel a certain kinship with all of you...and i am so so grateful to have found this site and all of you wonderful people......
tomorrow i have to pay a shiva call , so it will be another sad day...he was a young man, i think he was in his early 50's....
This morning over breakfast I asked them for their earliest memories of me. It was lovely remembering back when. H was quiet throughout and I know he doesnt remember any of it. One sad thing though...my DS said he remembered me being kinder and nicer than I am now. He is right. I was a much kinder and nicer person then.
If I were your H, I would be be v v careful.One of the women may claim that he coerced them to have sex in exchange for money.
HAs your IC explored PTSD with you? Heightened sex drive after a traumatic event is fairly common I think. Have your read here on HB?
Miracle, I dont know whats going on with your H, but my advice to you, is to go about getting a safety/exit plan in place for you and the your babies. At least it will give you something tangible to hold on whilst he is sorting through his stories.
I dont know what he is up to. We dont know how to talk to each other. We are each staying on our own side of the fence, with tentative polite approaches across.
Why oh why is nothing, fucking NOTHING open and honest? WTF is wrong with him?
Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.
i had had a conversation with a man and while i was talking he just started to talk over me,as though i were invisible and made it all about him...that respite lasted about an hour or two and then it was back....."its baack"
You are very vulnerable right now. I know the temptation, to prove your attractiveness or to get back at your H or to just feel wanted, is high...BUT please dont do anything you will regret. It just takes that one little slip, and then you will join the other side. Be careful, Miracle.
Of course my alarm bells are on alert cos I know how "understanding" and "compassionate" he can be to other women. So i checked his phone and it appears she called him only the once which means he called the first time. When I asked him (calmly and quietly) he flew into a temper, swearing and saying that I am full of shit. I stayed calm and asked him that he talk to me properly as I was, to which he said that if he called me a slut, no matter how calmly or quietly he said, it would change what he was saying.
I dont know what I am looking for. I dont know if I am even asking the right questions. I dont know if I am making something out of nothing...looking for micreance where there is none...like looking for wolves where there are sunflowers.
His reaction startled me. I would have hoped that he would have been nicer about it. And of course, the wuss that I am, I apologised to him after.
He has now locked his cell. I have no access to that either now.
Read back a couple pages. Shirley girl, you are one tough cookie, knocking off those OW one-by-one. Damn. I wish I had your nerve.
I hope you put the fear of God into this last one and that she loses sleep worrying about the possibility that her life will be brought tumbling down around her ears when she least expects it.
What fools these OP are.
I don't know what to think about your husband. He seems so erratic. If he's given up on IC, perhaps it's time to give MC another shot. I think I would certainly try to do that before calling it quits.
As for your Mom, I think you are just going to have to disregard her comments about your H. You and she do not share the same relationship values, so you are not ever going to view him the same way. She is of a different generation and has been willing to accept treatment that most women wouldn't even consider today. Love her, respect her, but don't follow her advice. It won't work for you because you are so different from her.
UK and Miracle, I feel for you. Finding more OW would be a killer. The only thing worse, I think, would be for them to be out there and not know about it. So do what you need to do to get the truth. For me at least, that has to be the baseline.
Sex. H and I also shared pretty much the same level of sex drive. Generally, things worked out fine. If one of us wasn’t in the mood, there would be some sort of compromise. Sometimes that was a cuddle and sleep, others a quick fuck. After DS1 was born, I think we managed 3wks. The longest was after DS4, 4 or 5wks. After this surgery, well I went in on the Tues, home on Wed, gentle sex on Sunday. Sorry if that’s tmi, but it’s to give you some idea of us ….. !!!
When H was the WH, I too felt used. Didn’t know why, of course, but I just did. It got to be a (sad) joke that I could spend the whole night sleeping on the mattress piping on my side of the bed. He could reach across and not even touch me, I was that far away. Anyways, there were a lot, and I mean A LOT, of times when I was a receptacle for his “needs”. Usually it was the middle of the night (we sleep naked) and I’d feel him tug at my hips and before I knew it, he was done. Very animal, always from behind and very perfunctory. It got to the stage where if I was awake enough, I’d get into a mind set determined to at least get some satisfaction for myself. Sometimes it worked, sometimes not. He could be done in less than a minute. And then it got to the point when his touch was like a cattle prod and would send me shooting across to my tiny section of the bed. My pillows would often slide onto the floor because I slept so close to the edge. However, it NEVER got to the point of him forcing himself on me and me being a very unwilling partner. I realise much of our disintegrating sex life with its lack of tenderness or emotion was due to the affair. He was making love to MOW and fucking me.
Dday was the Saturday night after 3 silent phone calls to the house. One just before midnight. He told me as we were sitting in bed. I left the room, pacing the house, taking to the spare room and keeping away from him. Early the next day I went to his bf’s house and sat with UKg2 while he went to ours to talk to WH. I went home and we talked and drank endless cups of tea. Eventually some time in the afternoon, I got up from the seat in the garden bower and, overcome by emotional exhaustion, went to our bed just to rest. H joined me and that was the first connective sex we had had for years. He made love to me. Of course I cried all the way through and after. I’m sure it was all to do with reclaiming something of what we had lost. I didn’t understand it, I just went with doing whatever felt right for me for at least six months.
Although I felt used a lot of the time during the affair, I never wanted to cut him off completely and I would be selfish at times. If I was “done”, I’d just push him off and roll away. Kind of made me feel I’d got one back at him. I think the longest we went was just over two weeks. I made a comment and it never happened again. Since dday, the longest has been about a week.
Sex is a base instinct. We use it for all sorts of reasons. To procreate (obviously), to connect esp when there is no more to be said, for recreational pleasure, for power, for peace and to satisfy a natural urge. We also withdraw from it as we withdraw from a situation. I withdrew, but without realising why. Sex was generally unsatisfactory with WH, so if I didn’t “get off” during sex with him, I got very adept at the DIY job once he had left the bed.
You don’t want your H near you for sex. Understandable. But your horniness possibly stems from unfulfilled emotional needs. You need to share this grief with someone and you can’t share it with him. He is the cause of your grief and you are angry with him and the current stricken state he has put you in. You want to feel wanted, protected, loved, treasured, desired and to be the sole focus of someone’s attention. You are screaming out for someone to hold you. I have had FWH to do that, but that’s not to say I haven’t thought about being with someone else just for sex. He spent so much time with MOW, I want some of what she had and that means being with someone who is NOT my H. Right now, I wouldn’t do it; but I would never say never.
Don’t worry about it. DIY while fantasising is fine for now. Obviously I am going to say do not consider a revenge affair or going with some other man just for sex. It will NOT make you feel any better about yourself. You are grieving a loss. Look at it like that.
Hugs hon. (((((miracle)))))
[This message edited by UKgirl at 4:13 PM, March 22nd (Sunday)]
Hi BT, >>>waving<<< carry on dropping in, your wise words are always welcome. And I think we’re all with you with giving shirley the medal for “knocking off” those OW’s! If there was another tough cowgirl, it would be her! Way to go, shirl!
Mother’s Day and lunch with all four boys and FWH was great. Huge bouquet of flowers on the table and a very expensive card in a silk envelope! Drank too much, but nothing new there!
Still nothing explained on the document front, other than the cry “I haven’t had another affair”. Oh for fuck’s sake. EXPLAIN IT THEN, YOU IDIOT. And FWH had his mother crying down the phone. She fears for our marriage and thinks I blame her in some way. Well, other than the genetic predisposition to having affairs, I don’t see how she was involved in WH and MOW hooking up or carrying on for five years. So I’ll have the drama queen crap to deal with next weekend. Oh my. >>>sigh<<<
[This message edited by UKgirl at 4:41 PM, March 22nd (Sunday)]
happy mom's day to all celebrating in the uk...i hope it was wonderful.....you all deserve that and more.....
was a bit of a hard day today....
(((HUGS))) to all
firday...i went to the dr's to get my blood drawn to complete my std testing...and then i went to get a pap smear for the rest of the std testing...i also walked in the am...my wonderful wh calls me and because of my convo with a man and my horniness he calls me and the first thing he wants to know is how was my day and did i enjoy my walk....that is where his head is.....basically wants to know if i am doin some steppin, like he did.
then:last night my wh read my post about me wanting to be the ow....gets all upset.....i tell him that i do not want to talk to him because i am very angry about this latest find (possible ow#4) and to please leave the room, i was actually posting here....he tells me that he "WAS" going to post, so ok....what's changed....he has only posted one thread since i've shown him this site.. i thought he could learn and we can grow and heal together...(what was i thinking)....anyways i look at him with a puzzled look because what does that have to do with anything...you "were" going to post then freakin post if that what you want to do,...was that his way of saying i did not like what you wrote so now i'm not going to post because that would be rewarding me.....then he says ok he will post....whatever...so i went to bed and when i woke this am i checked my email and he sent me a stupid lette instead of posting...wtf....then i went walking ...it usually clears my head...and then i realized why... the idiot hasn't posted since way back when because way back when he lied in his posts about telling "EVERYTHING" (his favorite word) and he knows that on the wayward side are all people who have been liars as is he, and they might judge him ( the ows never judged him) they all might see thru the rest of his lies.......
and HE STILL DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHY I CANNOT BELIEVE IN WHAT HE SAYS....
i have so much anger, and i wish he would have died instead of all this...i never wished such hateful things on anyone in my life.......not even my in-laws from hell....
i am thinking of going to a workshop in the city with james von praagh, i am thinking about going by myself....even if my wh could arrange for someone to bring my dd to and from her ACT test on that sat i don't think i want him there....i want to be just me...not somones wife, mom or daughter...just me....i am also a fan of his and i believe so much in what he does....what do u guys think? it would be the first time i ever went away without my wh...i never believed in separate vacations.....and had i had a faithful husband or at the very least a husband who could stand up own his shit and be a man i would still feel the same way....geez i am rambling again..sorry....
I have a mantra and I use it ALL the time. FWH has never told me the truth. At the weekend, he did manage to say that he did love MOW for a while, he was in love with her. Hoo-bloody-ray. Having said it wasn’t love. I knew he was, he had to be. She was the girl he was fucking engaged to, of course he loved her. So, before I go off on one, I say to myself “if he lies, he lies to himself cos I don’t believe him anyway”. It’s my protective layer. He went off at very short notice yesterday to stay overnight for an appointment this morning. I thought, “oh yeh, just the same excuse when MOW said she could see you” I no longer think about where he is, what he’s doing or who he’s with. I really can’t be bothered with it. I am sure that he will have a weak moment (think he’s had at least one anyway) and contact MOW to “see how she is” or that MOW will contact him if she has a crisis, like her mother dying or something, because she wants her KISA.
James von Praagh. Googled him as I’ve not heard of him. I don’t go much on readings, although UKg2 gets a lot of comfort from them. I wouldn’t want my life to be guided by anyone but me and, poor as my judgement is regarding seeing though someone’s lies and veneers, I’d rather take a wrong turn due to my own decision making than by taking advice from someone being visited by my spiritual guides. JMHO. If it gives you the help you need and doesn’t seriously effect your judgement or psyche, fine. But in the end, it is ALL your choice. Don’t give up on your own instincts.
i went thru his briefcase a little while ago and i couldn't believe what i found....he had letters that i wrote to him when he and i was first together....they were letters that should be any man's "F" dream, about how i wanted him sexually, there must have been 3, 4 or 5 letters some were expicit, some were just proclamations of my feelings for him......i almost destroyed them and then i thought NO HE NEEDS TO SEE WHAT HE'S FUCKED UP, OW#1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE EXISTED...IT HURTS SO DAMN MUCH THAT SHE EXISTED AT THAT TIME....THE TWO HAVE STOLEN SO MUCH FROM ME......AND AS MUCH AS I SAY I KNOW ITS NOT ME, THAT HE IS THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM...IT HRTS BEYOND BELIEF THAT I WAS NEVER LOVED ENOUGH AND I'M STILL NOT.....I AM HAVEING SUCH A HARD TIME WITH THE FACT THAT I DON'T HAVE A BEFORE......I DON'T KNOW HAVE A BEFORE.....IF HE WOULD HAVE REALLY REALLY LOVED ME..SHE WOULDN'T HAVE EXISTED....BUT SHE DID EXIST.....SHE NEVER WENT AWAY.....AT LEAST NOT IN HIS HEART, MIND AND SOUL.....
i cant seem to stop crying at this moment,, the damn snots a just rolling down my nose....thank you for listening......
I burned all the courting love letters. At least I didn't find any from her, just books she gave him. Sat in front of the fire one afternoon and put them on one by one. There were loads.
i AM SO DAMN ANGRY.... he says he loves me, but he never loved me enough.....she has certain parts of my life that should rightfully belong to me....she had his unconditional love, acceptance, he jumped thru any hoop she put out....and she was never the hole.....she was never a fill-in......he accepted ALL her shit......with gratitude no less......i gave him such love, unconditionally......put up with more crap then any person should all in the name of either his family or work.....i was always at the bottom of his list, me and hiskids.....he didn't want them either....i didn't give much choice with the first child and the second one just happened, we had had so many difficulties getting pregnant, correction I HAD HAD so many difficulties getting pregnant...so I was really surprised when my first child was 3 months old to find out i was pregnant again....the third child, i bargained him for...i orgianlly wanted 6 kids ( iwas an only child, big family was important) so i bargained that i wouldn't bother him for another if he just LET me have one more....he gave in, he loves our kids he just felt not ready.....i originally felt he was a good father, misguided a bit too hard but i thought he was a good dad.....now that i know where he his heads have been both the one on top and the one between his legs i now see how damn disconnected he was....the only other thing i had had issue with was the way he treated my middle child....that one was a biggie!!! i can't seem to stop rambling....i'm just so unhappy right now....
how does one do this......its so damn painful....even my kids aren't happy anymore.....they used to have the brady bunch life and were very happy....all they see is fighting, even though its so much less, they are not blind, they see that we are both very unhappy......i hope that changes for my kids sake...i spent so many damn years protecting them from his family crap only now to have our own CRAP>>>>
again thanks for listening.....i have ic tonite...hopefully it will help...
I know this doesnt sound like mcuh right now, but try to hold onto something from that time. Yes you are right, you didnt have a BEFORE together...
But you did have you before. You had your children before.
You had your own memories and feelings and dreams...before.
I know how much it hurts. Even now, some 2 years past dday, it still pangs deeply.
And so I hold on to what I know for sure...my children.
I know I was a great mom. I know I did the best I could at that time for my babies.
He (and certainly not some cheap pathetic creatures) can ever take that from me. I know I was a good person...naive, gullible, a HUGE doormat, too eager to please...but I was a good person.
He (and certainly not some rotten corrupted things) can take that away from me.
Through this very choppy storm, Miracle, find your own bouys to hang onto. I know the rain is just pouring down and you feel totally lost and adrift, no land in sight; heck the emotions are so so strong, you cant even see past your your hand held up in front of you...so try to find something good and clean and pure to hold onto.
As I walked into the house this afternoon, my DD ran up to show me a Vday card I had given H in 2001, and in which I had written some lines about how the times were tough then (we had 3 kids under 5)but we had so much to look forward to (like them sleeping through the night!) and may our love keep us afloat till then blah blah blah.
And I thought to myself, what a fool I was, thinking we were both working through those tough times together. It was me all alone. And whilst before, this thought would have sunk me into a deep funk, I now feel a little sad for that mom/wife but also proud of who I was and what i did then.
But this is me some 2 years on talking, Miracle.
So hang in there, Sweetie. For now, just try to get through each hour, each day and know that this storm will not last forever.
She was the girl he was fucking engaged to, of course he loved her
And you were the one he married, Ukg. And still remains married to. That must count for something, right?
IC is getting more difficult with them EMDR sessions. I believe we are getting closer to my heart of darkness, and it scares me. I want to know why I am the way I am...but I dont. Cos then I cant unknow it, KWIM?
Then if I know it, I have to fix it, and that means more work.
And to be honest, i am just too darn tired.
I see gloom and sadness and how low humans can sink almost every day in the course of my job.
I want to come home to light and love. I want to love and be loved. I want to feel safe and I want to make my loved ones safe.
And I am terrified that IC and digging into my head is going to render me totally incapable of doing this oneday.
It could make me a better, more loving person.More able to give AND recieve.
This heart of my darkness...it scares me.
thankyou to for listening....it helps more then you know...
OW did NOT give unconditional love. Unconditional love makes no demands, it just is. So that’s what he had from you. Children just come into the world and have no say in the matter. As you know, I have four. H always wanted four. I was quite happy with three. I had a history of miscarriages, ending up with 12 pregnancies and 4 live births, so going for the fourth was a big deal. I was waiting for the all clear after a suspected retained miscarriage and H didn’t “have time” to go for a vasectomy. DS4 made an appearance and became one of WH’s lame excuses for not leaving and was described to MOW as my “gift” to him (wtf??). I do not regret DS4 for one minute. But getting pregnant with him did change my life and maybe if I hadn’t, I wouldn’t be with FWH now, I would have been a working W&M, not a SAHW&M. Never regret the children you do have nor the ones you don’t. It changes nothing. It becomes another “if only” road.
Your children will be happy again. I have huge guilt issues with feeling I haven’t “been there” for any of them since dday. So many times I have wanted to tell them, but I haven’t.
BTW, How old are yours now?
You have received wonderful advice here. I, too, thought I had nothing to hang onto. The OW have been there through our entire relationship. Granted it was not one, but many, but it still "tainted" everything at first. However, 19 months out, I am able to see what is MINE and what was HIS. I was too involved with him before, too enmeshed, his life was my life, I had no life on my own, I just gave, gave, gave. I can now look at my children and be very sad that he couldn't have been there completely for them BUT I WAS. And, my three wonderful children ARE AMAZING. I swear to god they are doing wonderfully in school, in sports, in life, with their friendships, etc and I KNOW that I was responsible for that.
However, word of warning, it took me until a couple of months ago (1.5 years!!!!) to even begin to see that. You sweetie are just coming out of the fog of trauma and realizing what has happened to you. You are in shock. At about 6 months the anger stage hits with a huge BAM!! (I will never forget BT saying "I was wondering when you were going to get angry HS" ). So back to the four letter word of SI....time. You have a lot to process. From what I can tell, you don't even have the complete truth yet. This is going to be a hell of a journey and you have no choice but to make it one baby step and a time - for YOU. Your marriage might not make it but you will.
LH2 - I can understand your fear. EmptyOne has uncovered some things in therapy that left him curled up in a ball shaking. I am sure you are terrified to learn what it might be. However, remember, you know it is there. It is affecting you every day. Better to expose it to the light of day and deal with it on a conscious level than to try to bury it and let it make choices for you.
Hey UKG when are we going to see some pics of you?
Still nothing explained on the document front, other than the cry “I haven’t had another affair”. Oh for fuck’s sake. EXPLAIN IT THEN, YOU IDIOT. And FWH had his mother crying down the phone. She fears for our marriage and thinks I blame her in some way.
This just makes me so angry. You KNOW there is a logical explanation but whatever it is, he doesn't want you to know it and he hasn't thought up a plausible lie that you won't pick apart in a nanosecond so it is silence.
AND, what is with putting his mother in the middle to take care of it? How old is he THREE!!!