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User Topic: Long Term Affairs X I V
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, May 2nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Last night I watched the movie, Doubt, with Meryl Streep. Even though this is a movie about a priest who she suspects of child molestation there was an interesting discussion in the special features section of the DVD that I found useful for myself.
The cast members were discussing the point that the movie isn't about whether or not the priest was guilty. Afterall, we cannot always prove with absolute certainty a person's guilt or innocence.
They talked about how the movie was more focused on what it meant to the viewing audience. What is it about yourself that can you learn when faced with doubt and uncertainty.
I couldn't help but think how so many of us, myself particularly, would just love to prove every detail that has been given to me, would love to prove that what our H's are telling us is finally the truth and that there is no other truth to be revealed. Yet speaking solely for myself, I will never believe that I know the whole truth about my H's LTA and that there may even be other aspects, OW, who the hell knows, that may never be revealed. In other words, I am filled with doubt as to the extent and breadth of his LTA. So what's my choice. I can't prove either way that I know the whole truth, I can't prove that he is now being completely faithful, I can't prove that there were no other women before this OW.
I guess this leads me to the comment that HBH said about me the other day, that I am in a place of acceptance.
I do think I am in a place of acceptance. I accept that I cannot and may never know the entire truth about my H's LTA or about other aspects of his personality. I accept that I cannot be sure that he will remain faithful to me for the rest of our M life. I can only look within myself and know that should he be unfaithful to me ever again I will walk away knowing that I am making the right choice and I will walk away with no regrets - I know I had to try.
I have decided to stay in my M and want it to work. I decided this knowing that I may not know the whole truth but that from that point on - the point of choosing to stay, it was a new beginning. Whatever is in his past, is done and cannot be changed. What he does now after d-day, after seeing my pain, after seeing the effects of his LTA on our children, this is how I will make any decisions for us. Every action of his since d-day, has to communicate genuine remorse, acknowledgement of my pain, emotional and physical support, patience, and a sincere attempt to prove he is not the man he was during those years.
(I know I'm rambling again but I want to try to work this out and this is the place to do it )
I know I am in the minority here but I can't see the benefit of torturing myself about the what-ifs.
For me, I need to wipe the slate clean as of the day I decided I wanted to stay and work this out. If he dirties this new slate, then I am gone. He has been given another chance and I hope he appreciates the gift he has been given. So far, I believe he does but only time will tell.
Any comments???


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, May 2nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do think I am in a place of acceptance.

I know I am in the minority here but I can't see the benefit of torturing myself about the what-ifs.

I don't think you are in the minority for your stage of R. You are years out and you have probably come to the stage of acceptance that you know ENOUGH of the facts to make in informed decision. I thought I wanted to R a month or so after Dday1 when I found out about the two LTAs. I had come to a place where they were so far in the past what difference did it make, he was broken, we were struggling with young kids, etc, etc etc.

Then Dday2 hit with all the rest, the fact that he had never been faithful, that he was very clearly not the person that I thought he was at all. It has taken me a very long time to process all of the information. I firmly believe if he wasn't working as hard as he is and wasn't as remorseful as he is that we would be over. I still have a half of a butt cheek on the fence but I am not two years out yet. But there was information that I needed to get to where I am.

I am hoping I reach this place of acceptance that you speak of! I feel like I am at least pointed in that direction. However, I would say that most that I see on this site who have reached that place have 1) done an incredibly amount of introspection 2) had spouses that were willing and able to be remorseful, transparent and work on themselves 3) gave themselves the time necessary to reach that place and 4) are 3+ years out. DL quote about what she learned in R that was in the Recon forum expressed in beautifully and completely.

FNF - I am glad you have reached this place of peace with yourself and your H. I hope to join you there someday.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:21 PM, May 2nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

forgivenotforget:

i am truly happy for you for acceptance is yet another step in this godforsaken process....it is a step i ma struggling with, of course it doesn't help that he continues to lie, and that therein is the biggest problem of all....

acceptance in its truest form is a freedom, you are free to move forward....its a really good place to be.

from time to time i have this feeling, i am trying to learn to accept the fact that my wh is a liar, which means i do not go forward in the marriage by i do go forwad as a family....it is my family they i am keeping intact, the marriage for me is over, i will not be a wife to a liar....and its so damned hard living with him, i wish he would just disappear....its so much harder to see him, hear his voice.....yet i know his presence is necesary for my kids....my needs will be on the back burner, after all they've been on the back burner for a really long time, a long time before d-day...i just thought the reasons were different...

sorry forgivenotforget i really just wanted to say i was truly happy for you...you sound like you are in a good place.


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, May 2nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hurtshirley:

1) done an incredibly amount of introspection 2) had spouses that were willing and able to be remorseful, transparent and work on themselves 3) gave themselves the time necessary to reach that place and 4) are 3+ years out.

i agree with all but the last, i don't believe we need to be 3+ years out. i think with hard work on our own part on ourselves it can happen sooner.....i have been reading and reading getting answers on ME, i simply need to decide what I NEED and then ACT on it as much as possible.....i have good days and bad days and osme days where the entire day is a mixed bag a tricks like today....i do find that when i talk less to my wh i do better and feel better.....so i withdraw more and more......in my case i need accept that i am married to a master liar and manipulator...and that not going to change anytime soon if ever.....i need to move on with my life as we are a family and no longer a traditional husband and wife....for i will not be a wife to a liar....and i know that once i get to that point of total acceptance i will be FREE...and i look forward to it, my dd asked me on my 20th anniv. the other day if i still loved her dad, and i said yes.....i know that when i get to acceptance that love will be changed forever....it already is changed by his actions and his inactions ...

we need to have faith hurtshirley that we too will find this feeling of peace with acceptance, and that we don't have to wait years for it....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, May 3rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lets tune in to see what on todays double feature...get your popcorn, grab a seat and if u like a little porn you are in luck, here are some of my favorite parts,

(ws) "oh, oh.....say it, say it, tell me to fuck her, do it, do it play with her, does she feel good, taste her....."

or my other favorite:

(ws) "come on honey lets fantasize about other people"
(me) "like celebrities"
(ws) "how about people we know"
(me)"i don't think so i don't feel comfortable with that"
and then just before the scene climaxes
(me)"harder, faster"
(ws)"she wants it harder, she wants it faster, tell me she wants it...."

just thought i'd share some family movies, of course the only 2 stars on my and wh....and this scene was played many time over the past 23 years.....and now i know who the third star was.....ladies and gents allow me to introduce; (drum roll please)

non other then OTHER WOMAN NUMBER 1

and lets not forget that he loves her too, i wonder did i ever star in any of her home movies....

DOUBT IT


i also posted above in general and then did another post for another dble feature , the second dble feature being of fantasy....

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 12:14 PM, May 3rd (Sunday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
lostsuol
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Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 8:26 PM, May 3rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Been lurking... feeling low and not knowing how to express it. Wondering if I'm just having my own pity party because I'm still so broken by FWH's betrayal. This is NOT where I expected to be at this stage of life.

The weekend posts are really thought-provoking and amazingly reflective of what's bothering me... anger - doubt - acceptance... so many emotions and no answers. Such parallel yet different situations that make us able to empathize each other's experience.

{{{LTA}}}


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:25 PM, May 3rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((lostsoul))))

i'm sorry for your pain, i'm sorry for all our pain.....

the power that these waywards have is insurmountable.....they had/have the power to cause such pain


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
Lost Heart2
♀ Member
Member # 21793
Default  Posted: 3:29 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((((HB))))))

I am so sorry, Sweetie.

***
Miracle,
Your H appears to have issues with intimacy. It is a bit bizarre being referred to in the 3rd person like that, and I can only imagine how that now hurts.
Your dday was fairly recent, so I can only guess at the muddle of emotions you are going through.
Feel them, voice them out here or aloud or on paper..get the toxins out.

***
Fnf,

I accept that I cannot and may never know the entire truth about my H's LTA or about other aspects of his personality. I accept that I cannot be sure that he will remain faithful to me for the rest of our M life. I can only look within myself and know that should he be unfaithful to me ever again I will walk away knowing that I am making the right choice and I will walk away with no regrets - I know I had to try

You know, I kind of wiffle about this. Sometimes I am ok just living day to day, taking it as it comes, as face value. then there are other times, esp when he does/says something very triggery, that raises my hackles, and makes me so paranoid, that I can barely function, as my need to have EVERYTHING laid out in black and white overwhelms me.
Of course, I am no closer to getting any more "truth" from him, so its actually a pointless endeavour and and almost always ends up with me being in a intrapunitive state. I lose all around.

For me, acceptance means knowing without a shadow of doubt that:
* H had 2 LTAs, one which preceded me,(whether there may have been others - short of me finding something conclusive or a OW dropping in my lap, I will never know);
* He has never been himself and has always been a fake, so I will never know when he is "real";
* That he can not be trusted;
* That he is capable of incredible coldness and cruelty;
*Even the possibility of losing a child and later, the loss of another child, did not stop him from pursuing his own agenda and
putting his own needs/wants above all else;
* That he will always be vulnerable to external validation;
* That I will never be safe with him

Humpf.

Last night we were chatting and I asked him if he ever thought what the whole point of all this (life )was, he said that he has been thinking recently that maybe this is it - we get one chance at life, we should do what we want, how we want to, live however we like to because there was no Hereafeter, there was no Heaven/Hell, there were no rewards or punishments after this ( I asked of the rewards/punishments in this life but no answer to that). We should not live by societal/religious prescriptions of good/bad, right/wrong,he said, but by our own conditions of what we want and need, and to heck with everything/body else.

Needless to say I had a restless nightmare filled sleep.

Like Shirley said, it all sucks.

ETA:
To be fair to H, I should add the following:
He is not all gloom and doom. He can be a good man, a loving and caring H and F, when he wants to. I think maybe he couldnt before, because he didnt allow himself to give love. Maybe he has now realised that giving makes taking so much better.
I know he wants to be a good man; i know he wants to get his life back on track and needs to be someone that is respected by others(I think he values that more than being a person who is loved). He has come a long a way from H of pre-dday, and I am proud of the changes he has made.
Time will tell if that is enough for him...and me.

***
LostSuol,
Whats going on, my friend?


[This message edited by Lost Heart2 at 5:46 AM, May 4th (Monday)]


LTA BS

Dday#1 02.06.06
Dday#2 28.11.06


Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.


Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: London, UK
hurt789
♀ Member
Member # 20937
Default  Posted: 6:02 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf,

I do think I am in a place of acceptance

I posted the other day about acceptance vs forgivness in Recon forum the other day.

I am struggling with this issue now. We are in R - WH is being perfect.

I know I will not know the whole truth. The "what if's eat at me daily, every hour of every day. Since I knew the OW (pretended to be by BF for all the years of the A, Godmothers to each others children, ect) the whats if's are torcher. The last few years of the A, they really didnt try to hide it, but it was always deny, deny, deny.
I am having trouble accepting some of the aspects of the A. How he took care of her and her children, how the non sexual aspects of the A were. Have you come to accept these issues too? For me, its the love and effection he showed her, not just the sex. How do you come to acceptance with those issues? Any insight would be greatly appriciated


BS 40
WS 43
MARRIED 20
TOGATHER 22
1 PERFECT DAUGHTER
DDAY7/13/08
LTA - ALWAYS


Posts: 240 | Registered: Sep 2008
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i posted this in general too:

sent my wh an email, this new/old memory is so damned hurtful....

u even have a clue how often i was a hole, her substitute, you played out that little fantasy 3 out of 4 times, and at one point it was every time...i remember i was upset because i couldn't understand why you didn't want just me...it was always her...and now i know who the her is, i was so damned stupidly naive

thank you so much for the new movies and realization that you were making love to her while having sex with me...
you never should have married me...she was the one you wanted all along, you settled for me....

i now know that he hardly ever made love to me, it was always her...i was the hole, over and over and over again....

i know this is wrong but i really wich he died instead....at least i would have my illusions of being loved.....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
hurtbuthappy
♀ Member
Member # 14539
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Morning all!

I am so sorry so many of us are hurting. For me, I know the weather plays a part. We haven't seen sun in awhile.

I have been reading and rereading these discussions on acceptance vs. forgiveness. WH keeps saying he hopes some day I will "forgive". I know this is along ways off and I believe I have to hit acceptance first. I am still beating myself up over the "what ifs" and "I wish I had done......"

I know the past is in the past and cannot be changed. Still trying to figure out how to let go. I still have so much anger. Wish I could let it go, but I think it is a protective defense for me. If I let it go and try to move forward, I might get hurt again. I think my IC is kinda tired of hearing my excuses. She tells me I HAVE to decide if I want to move forward and take the chance. Easy for her to say......harder for me to do. Maybe 3+years is the magic number.

I am rambling, but FNF, when did you feel like you hit your acceptance? Do you feel like you have/will ever forgive?


M-25 years
2 kids

Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2007
Lost Heart2
♀ Member
Member # 21793
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Miracle,
she was the one you wanted all along, you settled for me
now know that he hardly ever made love to me, it was always her...i was the hole, over and over and over again.

You WILL not hurt your self like this. I know where this thinking goes and it is not a nice place. This line of thinking is faulty and just plain wrong!

Miracle, you were NOT the substitute; you WERE not the hole.
You were treated badly by H. You did not deserve any of that. None of this was your fault.

I know you feel crappy. Please dont punish your self. He is the ONE that should be beating himself up. He is the one who should feel like the substitute, for wasnt he the one who has been living a fake life all this time?

You are more than you think you are. You deserve more than you think you do. And oneday, not only will you believe this, you will demand this as well.

Are you in IC, Miracle?


LTA BS

Dday#1 02.06.06
Dday#2 28.11.06


Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.


Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: London, UK
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

* He has never been himself and has always been a fake, so I will never know when he is "real";
* That he can not be trusted;
* That he is capable of incredible coldness and cruelty;
*Even the possibility of losing a child and later, the loss of another child, did not stop him from pursuing his own agenda and
putting his own needs/wants above all else;
* That he will always be vulnerable to external validation;
* That I will never be safe with him

LH - Is that true that you have never seen the real MR. LH? *Hasn't there been even the briefest of moments or time where he has been vulnerable to you, shown you his broken self, exposed his insecurties and fears???
*Has your inability to trust him lessened over time? Has he made any efforts to prove to you that he desires your trust and is willing to concede on certain things, like giving you his passwords, in order to gain your trust? I know for me this was crucial to gaining trust. I have all passwords (of accounts I know of anyway ), I have complete access to his cell phone and randomly check on his calls when the bill comes in (although I do this less and less). It seems so counterproductive for them to refuse to give up passwords or access to cell phones and still expect to rebuild trust. Yet, as I've said, I will never allow myself to completely trust him but that's ok because it helps me to feel safe knowing I haven't given him my blind faith .
*Is your H still being cruel and incredibly cold? This has to be painful for you because no matter how much we want our M to work, without their constant affection and patience, we can never let down our walls, IMHO. To me, it seems so obvious that he has not been able to work through some very serious issues if he is still be "incredibly" cold and cruel. You deserve more than that, LH.
As to his behavior during the loss of your son, well I can only say that this is a reflection again of his own deep, troubled past. I know a little of this pain as I miscarried our second child in my 4th month and my H sent his mother over to be with me. He had more important things to do. I have never completely forgiven him for this. But it is about their diminished humanity and their shallow commmitments and sometimes we have to accept the unacceptable and make other provisions for ourselves. As I've said so many times, I never could have gotten this far in my life or my healing from his LTA without the love and support of my sister and my children. Unfortunately, when we are married to men with these extreme shortcomings we have to look within ourselves and to others who care about us during our most difficult trials. That is the saving grace of this site, that we know we have each other to run to when the pain overwhelms us.
*Do you still feel he is vulnerable to external validation? I have to admit that I do worry about that occasionally too with my H. Over time, I worry less and less but again I think it is wise for us to remember that it is this weakness that got them into trouble in the first place and unless they have examined this extensively in IC'ing, they are still at risk (as are we) for another indiscretion.
*Feeling safe - this takes so long to get to this place and somehow, from my own experience, the "feeling safe" comes from knowing that I am strong enough and have enough self-respect to walk away and never look back if my H should ever be so stupid to do this to me again. My feeling safe no longer depends on him - it is about me looking out for me and loving myself, and knowing my own value that gives me a feeling of safety. That has taken these 3 long years to finally get that but I think I am finally there.
LH - you probably didn't expect this long-winded response but I'm not done yet. As to this discussion with your H ....
We should not live by societal/religious prescriptions of good/bad, right/wrong,he said, but by our own conditions of what we want and need, and to heck with everything/body else.

First this statement makes me furious but secondly, I think he is full of shit (pardon my French)! I don't believe he believes this for a minute. I think he may think he wants to believe this but I doubt very much he felt that way when he saw/sees your pain. He may try like mad to block your pain from penetrating him but unless he is made of stone there is no way I can believe he is able to shut out the pain he has caused you or his children.
His comment about this life being it, brings up a discussion I once had in a Philosophy class. The professor asked the class what we would do differently if we found out with 100% certainty that this life was it. (Hey, could your H have had the same professor? ) I raised my hand and said that I would not live my life differently, that I would live exactly the same as I was doing because we rarely escape the consequences of our actions. We don't have to wait for a higher power to pass judgment on us, or to punish us for our sins in this life. Those sins we commit, exact their consequences on us and unfortunately on those who we are supposed to love and protect. He knows this!!! He is living this. All of our FWH's are suffering the consequence of their incredibly selfish actions and live with shame, self-loathing, regret, and worst of all live with the knowledge that those who once loved and respected them struggle every day to regain those feelings that at times no longer seem to exist. These are terrible consequences indeed and none that I would want for myself. This is what your H is trying to shut out by making these statements. He is trying to put up his own walls of defense against his feelings of shame and regret. Don't believe otherwise. (Well, that's my humble opionion anyway. )
Take care LH. You are one strong woman and one that all of us care about and respect. You are funny, tender, caring and special. He can never take that from you.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 9:46 AM, May 4th (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Lost Heart2
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Member # 21793
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Fnf.
Ok, deep breathe..here goes:
Is that true that you have never seen the real MR. LH? *Hasn't there been even the briefest of moments or time where he has been vulnerable to you, shown you his broken self, exposed his insecurties and fears???

Yes, there have been a few times when he expressed deep regret for what he has done. There are times when he is full of remorse for how he has wasted his life and how he has disappointed himself. Was this the real him? I am reminded of the times when we were courting – we would chat for hours (it was a long distance R); actually he was more him talking and me listening – and he would talk about virtue and goodness and being true to yourself and leading a honest life; there were sad tales of his childhood and the ways he was breaking free of all of that; how he was going to make something of his life etc etc.- ALL that time he was the OM in a LTA. There was a time when he dumped me and then a few months later I got a call from his friend saying that H had to meet me one more time; that he couldn’t live without me. I met him in a sleazy hotel without telling my family and he broke down saying that I couldn’t leave him; that he had been abused as a child by a teacher and that whilst he couldn’t be my BF, he needed me as a friend. I held him as he cried saying that I wouldn’t leave him, that I would do everything I can to help him (note that it was HE who dumped ME).
Mastermanipulator? SAB victim? Who knows? He did want to talk about that again..even after dday I asked him if he had been abused by his teacher, he asked me, “Why would I lie about that?” but refused to talk about it further.
You see, Fnf, even if he is showing his TRUE self, I don’t have a clue. He himself said that he doesn’t know who/what he is…and cant remember the last time he was himself…

Has he made any efforts to prove to you that he desires your trust and is willing to concede on certain things, like giving you his passwords, in order to gain your trust?
That is mood dependent. If he is in the mood, he will call and say where he is. Sometimes, if he is uspet with me, he wont. Besides, who knows if its true anyway – he would call saying he is having lunch with XY but really, how do I know? Sometiems, he says he just forgets to tell me stuff and I have found out from his emails/cell. I don’t have access to his emails anymore, as you know,after I found the last email from his ex work colleague whom he admitted having an EA with and whom he went NC with, but now denies it being an EA. I don’t have access to his laptop. His cell is left lying around but who knows whats been deleted. I cant even be bothered to check the cell phone bill. Do I think he is having an A right now? No – I think he is so depressed that he cant see past his own hand.
*Is your H still being cruel and incredibly cold?
He can be but not as often or as long as he was before. Last night I expressed to him that I have been battling S thoughts recently. He was shocked and asked how did this come out so suddenly. I said its been a few weeks really but he just didn’t see. His response was that if I wanted to do it, I should just do it, but make sure I do a really good job because it will very difficult to face everyone after if I failed.
*Do you still feel he is vulnerable to external validation?
Oh yes. Even more so now with his depression. And not having the OW to distract him from himself. On Saturday we were in a queue and the cashier (a young pretty thing) asked him something and he cracked a joke with her. He must have seen from my face that I was upset and he came by me a few minutes later to apologise – he said he didn’t know why he said that but didn’t mean anything, he wasn’t flirting etc. And all I could think was that if he slipped like that in front of me, what was he like when I wasn’t around? How often did he joke/flirt and what will happen should a woman ever respond in kind?
My feeling safe no longer depends on him - it is about me looking out for me and loving myself, and knowing my own value that gives me a feeling of safety
Amen to that. I am working on that, FNF. Sometimes like this last few weeks, I have stumbled and am floundering. I think for me, this will be a lifelong piece of work.
And by the way, I know he was full of shit last night. LOL.
He IS living the consequences of his stupidity right now..and unfort so are me and the chn. We are getting better, there will come a time when the last 2 years will be a distant sour memory to the children (I pray) and there will come a time, when I will be able to walk straight and strong with the best of you. H? Who knows. It all depends on him.

Thank you for your time and kind words, Fnf.
And thank you for letting me get some toxins out.


LTA BS

Dday#1 02.06.06
Dday#2 28.11.06


Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.


Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: London, UK
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:21 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and the next post:

and his answer is:

I AM STUPID, I WAS STUPID. I DID NOT SETTLE FOR YOU. I AM TRULY IN LOVE WITH YOU AND NO ONE ELSE. I AM SORRY I DID NOT GET RID OF HER. I AM SORRY I EVERY CHEATED. NOTHING, NO ONE COMES CLOSE TO YOU. THAT IS WHY I MARRIED YOU. I GET LUMPS IN MY THROAT THINKING ABOUT YOU. I GET ANXIOUS TO SEE YOU. I AM STUPID FOR HAVING ANY OF THEM EXIST. I DO NOT NOR DID I GET FEELINGS OF ANXIETY FOR ANYONE BUT YOU. THIS IS HOW I FEEL. THIS IS HOW I ALWAYS FELT ABOUT YOU. I AM SORRY FOR MY WEAKNESS. I DO NOT REGRET MARRYING YOU OR FOR BEING IN LOVE WITH YOU. I DO REGRET NOT DEALING WITH MYSELF AND HONORING OUR VOWS. I DO REGRET AND AM SORRY FOR THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND PAIN I HAVE CAUSED. I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS AND WILL NEVER HURT YOU LIKE THIS EVER AGAIN.
and my favorite line:


I DO NOT NOR DID I GET FEELINGS OF ANXIETY FOR ANYONE BUT YOU. THIS IS HOW I FEEL.
"i do not know how to answer that"

would you, would anyone? would that make you feel loved and cherished?

i think he's got anxiety because he's worried that he will be out and i will take his money....thats his other great love aside from ow#1



i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How he took care of her and her children, how the non sexual aspects of the A were. Have you come to accept these issues too? For me, its the love and effection he showed her, not just the sex.

Let me warn you in advance that I have a tendency to ramble but it's the best way for me to work through difficult questions.
Here goes: The OW in my case is an absolute mess. Her life is an overall disaster. She had alcoholic parents, a drug addict for a son, a sister who was a true "low life", and was herself so lacking in morals and self-respect that she was fucking my H while her own was dying of CA. She is extremely unattractive and lacks polish and sophistication, and is someone who my H admitted he was ashamed to introduce to his colleagues as part of his office staff (let alone the person he was fucking). The fact that my H would even want to be remotely involved with a woman of this type is so foreign to me, so incredibly unbelievable that my own prejucies refuse to accept that it was anything but sex and what she might have been willing to do sexually for him. The very fact that this woman was someone he went to for "validation" speaks volumes to me of how deeply insecure my H must have been (or may still be ).
My H was absolutely mortified when the facts of his A and who it was with became known to his family, his friends and his colleagues. When I would go off on one of my rants about how atrocious and pathetic his choice of an A partner was and then shove a picture of her in his face and ask him how he could even bear to look at her let alone fuck her, he would cringe and tell me to take it away.
I know this may absolutely be my own prejudice coming into play here, but it is impossible, utterly, completely impossible for me to believe that his LTA was about anything other than sex and a patheticly low self-esteem on my H's part.
So many times during these years my H has told me that she was willing to do anything for him (and I can only imagine how far that might be ) and that this was his main attraction to her. Oh, let's not forget that she "never criticized" him. I heard that so many times. Well no fucking surprise there. Of course she didn't coming from where she came from.
Ok, I got that out of my system. See, I still have lots of work to do.
I guess though to answer your question more directly, I knew there was a KISA aspect to their relationship. As I said, her life was a mess and he would come home and tell me how bad her life was and I would feel sorry for her. I was happy that my H provided an outlet for her and proud that he was so caring.
Shortly before d-day she had called me and was telling me what a tough time she was having with the holidays approaching and I thought (like an idiot) that she was still grieving for her dead H. I was going away with my D and told my H to take her out - "Oh, poor , she's having a tough time. Maybe you could take her out and help her through this."
What a fucking idiot I was.
I said to him later that they must have been laughing their asses off at that one.
So I do admit that there was some emotional aspect to their relationship but it was based, IMHO, on mutual neediness, not real genuine love, at least on his part.
You see, from the very beginning following d-day, I repeatedly told my H that I would not want to keep him from her if she was the one who truly made him happy. I meant this too. I told him that I don't want someone who wants to be or needs to be with someone else. I'm not made that way. I assured him that I would not "take him to the cleaners", that I would be fair. I had already gone to a lawyer and worked out what I believed to be a fair settlement and when he looked it over he agreed. We talked about how we would distribute our shared personal effects, and because we had several close friends who are attorneys, we didn't have to spend a lot of money on legal fees. I wanted to make this as simple and fast and painless as possible. I promised him I would not turn our children from him if he treated me fairly in the D.
(I wouldn't turn them against him anyway because I love them and wouldn't have wanted that for them and he knew this.)
So, as I see it, he was given every opportunity to run to her if that was what he wanted. I had no intention of standing in his way. The only thing I demanded was a fair settlement.
I also told him that I believed that some men are incapable of being faithful and that I wasn't trying to judge him. I only wanted him to know that I was a "one man woman" who needed to be with a "one woman man."
I also said that obviously, she was willing to share and so she might be the better choice for him. I said that I was not trying to be coy or critical but that he needed to understand that it was unfair to me to stay in this relationship if he could not or would not be able to make this commitment to me. I think it is so important to be honest with oneself about this. Not everyone is built for monogomy. I told him that was ok as long as the person you are with agrees to this. I do not and will never agree to anything but complete fidelity in a relationship. Go with peace if you need otherwise.
I never tried to hold onto my H, I never begged him to stay, I never wanted his discontentment on my conscience. I honestly wanted him to go if he couldn't be happy here. And he knew that I was serious.
So I guess that's why I have come to the place where I'm at now. I have given him every opportunity to leave and yet he has chosen to stay. Hopefully he will not disappoint me or betray my belief in his willingness to finally be a faithful H.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:27 AM, May 4th (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

when did you feel like you hit your acceptance? Do you feel like you have/will ever forgive?

HBH - Honestly, I feel like it is just recently that I have reached the point of acceptance. I don't know if it's just the time factor, 3 + years out, or the fact that after 3 years my H is maintaining a commitment to me that I can believe in and trust. I think it takes that long for them to prove to us that they have changed, especially when you're talking about years of infidelity. For those whose H's have had a ONS or a STA, I would think that the timeframe might be shorter but for us, the length of their A's IMHO demands years of proving that they are worthy of our trust and love. Frankly, I always thought, and told my H that I thought, it would take me the same 8 years as his LTA. But over time, watching him work hard to change has helped me achieve a sense of security and belief in him.
Forgiveness, now that's a tricky one, isn't it?
If you notice my username, forgivenotforget, that is something I have always believed in. Too many times, we get hurt or let down by the people we love. We can never forget, I don't believe it's humanly possible. Deep hurts are locked into our memory. We don't have to dwell on them or obsess over them but they are a piece of the fabric of our lives and always will be and they change us too and we recognize and feel the changes in ourselves so we can't ever forget the reasons behind the changes in us, KWIM??
Forgiveness though is not just a feeling for me, it is a choice. And it is the selfish component of choosing to forgive that helped me move in that direction. I knew that I would suffer if I held out on forgiving my H. Holding onto anger keeps us from regaining our inner peace and happiness. I believe that refusing to forgive someone who hurts us ends up hurting us more than the person who we are denying our forgiveness. That doesn't mean that we allow them to continue hurting us. We may need to move on if that happens. But we can still forgive them and move on with our lives.
I also remember reading somewhere a while ago that there are people in our lives who are too important not to forgive - people we know we can't or don't want to live without. At the time, my mother had hurt me deeply and yet I knew that I could never shut her out of my life completely so I CHOSE to forgive her for my sake more than for hers. I needed her in my life and wasn't willing to live without a relationship with her. She continues to disappoint and hurt me like the time she told me she felt sorry for the OW, "afterall, look at all the years she gave him." Imagine saying that to me. In the same breath she was saying to me, "get over yourself." I gave him 35 years of my life, 3 children, my youth, my trust, my faithfulness and I should get over myself.
Oops, I'm getting away from my point.
I have always been a relatively happy person. One of the hardest things for me has been to live without my inner joy and peace. I have struggled so much trying to get that back and I knew without a doubt that I could never get there if I didn't first choose to forgive. Acceptance would come but forgiveness for me was the first step in getting there.
Everyone must make their own path. This is the one that I took. Like it has been said so many times here on SI, we can't change anyone else but ourselves. I also believe that we can't look to anyone else to give us that inner peace and joy. That must come from within.
Sometimes, again IMHO, it is a matter of CHOOSING what it is you want and then knowing what it is you have to do to get there.
(((HBH)))
ETA - I think also that part of my ability to forgive my H comes from feelings of compassion for his weaknesses. I know this must sound crazy but I am glad that I don't have such low self-esteem, such low self respect that would have taken me down the path he chose to go. I hear the stories of his childhood, I see the lack of connection with his FOO, I see how difficult it is for him to make lasting connections with people. I see how much he struggles to regain the love and respect of our children and how he oftentimes looks broken and I feel for him, I really do.
Also, ETA, now forgiving the OW. NAH! I don't need to forgive her to be happy again I only need to get to a place of indifference toward her and forget as best as I can her very existence. This is still a work in progress.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 12:36 PM, May 4th (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF - I am glad you have reached this place of peace with yourself and your H. I hope to join you there someday.

HS - I look forward to having your company!
and I have complete and utter faith that you will be there maybe sooner than you think.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Lost Heart2
♀ Member
Member # 21793
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Fnf...
You are one awesome woman, you know that?
I count myself very fortunate to be called a friend of yours.

***
Miracle,
I sent you a post that has been sucked into the cyber-bermuda.

IMO, his anxiety is due to him watching his world(s) crumbling around him. I hav no doubt that my H genuinely had panic attacks after dday, esp each time a piece of his life came out. One night I was close to calling 999 because he thought he was having a heart attack.

However, you would think this anxiety would make them that much eager to come clean with everything, just make clear cut through, wouldnt you?

Stay strong, Miracle. This crap is about HIM, NOT YOU.
Big hugs from across the pond.


LTA BS

Dday#1 02.06.06
Dday#2 28.11.06


Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.


Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: London, UK
hurt789
♀ Member
Member # 20937
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, May 4th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf,

Thanks so much for the reply. I love it when you ramble

My WH has told me pretty much the same things your's did. He admits that the happier he made her the more she would do..kwim..Making her happy included being mean, well ignoring, me and our daughter. If he bought our daughter something, then he had to buy the samething for her kids too. (Most the time I agreed cause they were, so I thought, my goddaughters). He would have to compliment her infront of me. He told me she loved that. He wouldnt go on family outings unless her family could go to, ect. I hadnt received a piece of jewelry in 13 years because it would make her mad. He would tell me jewerly was useless and a waste of money. I do now have the ring I have always wanted. At our 2 mo annv from d-day he asked me if I would let him love me the way I should of been all those years and ask me to try to forgive him. (He knows I may never, just wants me to try) I said I would and he took me out and bought me my ring. He stressed it wasnt a "koby" (kwim) ring, but a ring for a new beginning. (sorry ..rambling.)
The ow was a mess also. but we have both found out since d-day most of it was lies. (abuse, rape, MS) My WH tells me he felt like he never had to make a choice. Of course I had suspesions, but he would lie and I would believe...the last few years I wouldnt believe him, but I felt trapped, like there was nothing I could do. He said, not blaming me, but just being honest, that I made it easy. I would bitch and complain, he would lie or just ignore me, then I would go back to taking care of him. He said he felt like there was no concequinces, and that he was 100% positive I would never leave. He even admitted he thought I knew and so did her BH and we just didnt care. They even thought that me and her H should get togather cause we acted so much alike!! ( My WH knows now why we acted the same..) I didnt even know her H had suspecions like I did - My WH says he had them years before I did. Thats one "what if" I think about alot, why didnt I ever talk to her H about it!! She actually told her H that she knew how he felt after D-Day.. That she was the one that was betrayed by my WH.

I have also told my WH to go be with her..if she made him truly happy. He is still here too. I guess once the excitment of the "game" (hate that word)is over, then there is nothing for them.

I wish and pray everyday that I could just say "ok, it happened, I cant change it I can only live for today and move forward and let my WH love me and be happy".
But sometimes I can go a whole day feeling like that, and my WH is so nice and loving towards me, then I remember that is how he was with her. Then I cry..

Oh, I almost forgot, the OW - her nickname was "MR.ED WITH BOOBS." (Thats what my WH's family and even my family use to call her) I dont get that either..she wasnt Hallie Berry, or some supermodel..she was a horse with boobs. From the back she was shaped and looked like a man. I asked my WH if he was gay since he was attracted to her! I am not pretty, I am overweight, but OMG..GROSS!! (I have lost 60 lbs on w/w since last August!!) I still have a few more lbs to go..

Thanks again for your insight..sorry, I just kept rambling...)



BS 40
WS 43
MARRIED 20
TOGATHER 22
1 PERFECT DAUGHTER
DDAY7/13/08
LTA - ALWAYS


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