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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts II
lovedontlivehere
♀ Member
Member # 20055
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, January 8th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It makes me mad that I turn to one of my negative behaviours when I find out he's using. Why kill myself with these behaviours because of his behaviour?

(((((1F)))))

I've definitely reverted,too, and I know it's gotta stop.



Partner still wanking off into fantasy land.
*update* No longer together, but he was STABBED and now wants R. Whatever.

Posts: 1256 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Deep South
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 10:14 PM, January 8th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay, my heart is breaking here. I just had a talk with my H. Everything has been so superficial since Christmas, and he brought up that I won't let this sex stuff alone. (Because of the bottle of lubricant I found down there--we had a discussion on Christmas about it).

He asked me if I really thought he was a sex addict. I said yes. I told him it wasn't his fault, that his dad was also, he didn't even know about his dad going to the doctor for penis enlargment (his mom tells me a lot of stuff). I asked him if he thought he was normal about sex. He said no, but he said I knew about that before. I asked him to get counseling. He said no. I told him this is not the kind of stuff you can fix on your own, you need the proper tools. He said I think he is some kind of monster. I told him no, I never said that, I just think he is a really good person with a problem. I told him a lot of people have this problem. I told him it is not normal to email a hooker asking for her price and giving out his phone number and name and location. I told him I felt he was exploring his options. He goes "Is that what you really think? I told you I was just bored" and I told him that normal bored guys don't email hookers. I told him since he told me he was angry with me, that he had figured if she called back, he could just try that out and I would never know and it wasn't important to him because it wasn't emotional to him. He goes again "that is really what you think" and I said yes. I told him it wasn't normal that he never wants to have normal sex, it always has to be out in public, or he wants other people. He told me that he was acting on MY fantasy. He can't even remember things right! I am the one that told him no, I don't want other people. That was his suggestion--I would never have a 3 way!!!! He misremembers stuff all the time. I know it is not me. Why can't he remember this stuff?

He told me I really hurt him bad when I told him he used to be my hero, but then when I found out about all that sex stuff, he wasn't as much. (That was back right after d-day). I told him he could be my hero again, if he would get help. He said again he was never going to counseling, and I asked him what he was afraid of. He wouldn't answer.

I asked him if I could read the survey from sexaholics anonymous to him so he could see if he was a sex addict. He said no, he doesn't want to hear it. I told him there is help and I just want us to have a normal, loving sex life. He called me Dr. Phil, and said just because I go to counseling doesn't make me a counselor, and I have to analyze everything. I told him I know I am not a counselor, that is why I wanted him to take the test himself. And I am only working on our sex life, because that is the big problem between us. I told him I thought we did pretty good otherwise. He said we didn't, he was unhappy, he was sorry he got married.

He said he had enough of this crap for one night, and we said goodbye and hung up. I told him I still loved him. He said he didn't think I loved him, and I told him I wouldn't still be here if I didn't. I don't think there is any hope.


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 14915 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
lovedontlivehere
♀ Member
Member # 20055
Default  Posted: 5:19 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((NA))))


Partner still wanking off into fantasy land.
*update* No longer together, but he was STABBED and now wants R. Whatever.

Posts: 1256 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Deep South
lovedontlivehere
♀ Member
Member # 20055
Default  Posted: 5:26 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why can't he remember this stuff?

I wonder the same about mine. Everything is so monumental to me, but to him it's just a blur of bodies. I have a lot of thoughts about that. Sometimes I think they live on some alternate plane of reality, sometimes I think they genuinely can't remember (I imagine it's hard to keep all that acting out straight), and sometimes I think it's plaine dishonesty.

[This message edited by lovedontlivehere at 5:27 AM, January 9th (Friday)]


Partner still wanking off into fantasy land.
*update* No longer together, but he was STABBED and now wants R. Whatever.

Posts: 1256 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Deep South
Newtwood
♀ Member
Member # 21154
Default  Posted: 5:33 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((NA))) *I PM'd You


Faithful Wife of 24+ yrs: Me
WS: Him
OW(s): AFF Skanks/GRANDMOTHERS!!!

Status: Struggling Everday to
Survive

what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another-Anatole France


Posts: 2181 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: North Carolina
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 6:52 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It makes me think I must be crazy! STuff that just happened last month--we both have totally different recollections of. Except that I know he is off, because some of the things he said I do I know I would never do, unless I have two separate personalities living in the same body (I think someone would have noticed by now!). Also, his mom and his sister have the same memories of when the kids were growing up, but my H's are totally different! His sister says he seems to not remember things the same as everyone else also.

I think he rewrites history to assuage his guilt. I think it is part of his "running" from himself. (Yes, dear, I am doing Dr Phil again) I can't help it--I have to make some sense of this insanity! Anyway, something that really struck me was when we were talking and he said "you think I'm this monster" blah blah blah. He has used that term before--I have NEVER used that term. Or anything close. I just told him there is a problem. He has internalized that, and I think he has been thinking he is a monster himself for a long time, I know he feels like he is a bad person. I keep trying to tell him he is a good person, with a problem. I might as well just smack my head on the concrete floor. I want to just give up, but I won't. But I'm scared of what tonight's phone call might bring.


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 14915 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 6:57 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

duplicate post! (Hate this dial up crap--I get kicked off every ten minutes!)

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 7:00 AM, January 9th (Friday)]


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 14915 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
Newtwood
♀ Member
Member # 21154
Default  Posted: 8:30 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Same here. He changes his story. Swears you up and down he never said it. Even everyday things. Remembers things in a completely different way than it happened. I used to blame it on diabetes but he doesn't have it anymore since the weight loss surgery. Maybe he IS insane like I think.

My WH is the Kung-Fu Master of 'running-away-from-himself!!! I've told him this for years. He uses the "You Think I'm this horrible-person (monster)" card with me too...it's blame-shifting and low self esteem and they try to throw it back on us.

Don't smack your head on concrete-that just hurts. I fell yesterday on the ice and my daughter fell the day before! I hope he thinks on things before he calls and can see YOU are trying and YOU are not the enemy and YOU didn't do this to the two of you! Wishing you good thoughts and the call tonight is HIS wake-up and get-his-shit-together call.

*and I PM'd ya again!

[This message edited by Newtwood at 9:02 AM, January 9th (Friday)]


Faithful Wife of 24+ yrs: Me
WS: Him
OW(s): AFF Skanks/GRANDMOTHERS!!!

Status: Struggling Everday to
Survive

what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another-Anatole France


Posts: 2181 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: North Carolina
happyending
♀ Member
Member # 21009
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can so relate to what you all are saying about how your partner can't remember things correctly. I wonder if this goes hand in hand with the SA? It is so bad in our relationship that I have actually started bringing a notebook with me to counseling sessions and writing down what my WS says. At home, if we start "discussing" things, I go get the notebook and write everything down. Still the next day, or the next week, my WS will say "I have NEVER said that!" Now I can go get my notebook, open it up, and say "Yep, you did, it's right here". He always looks lost, confused, like he honestly doesn't remember what he said!
I have heard my WS exaggerate truths in his day to day life with others for our entire marriage. He does it to make a story funnier, draw people in, ect... and it seems to work for him. I'm just now realizing that our entire marriage he has most likely been doing this to me- just drawing me in- lying about the little things AND the big things. It worked like a charm for him. I now believe nothing the man says.

Its been a while since I posted on SI. I have been going through this crazy ambivalent stage. I thought my WS was a SA, our MC confirmed this- and then I starting reading "Mending a Shattered Heart". I got very ambivalent about the whole issue, really still am, started wondering if my WS was just using this "diagnosis" to blame away his behaviors. The truth is- I SO don't want him to be a SA It's too hard, takes too much work, there's so much relapse. I think I know in my heart that WS doesn't have what it takes to beat this. He doesn't have any intention of really working a program at this time- he has not hit bottom- and I can't force him too! Why should I waste the rest of my life my someone who may never "get it".
I did NOT want this diagnosis. I want someone to just take it back- this is such a nightmare. I still find myself wondering sometimes if maybe he really doesn't have it- maybe the therapist is confused, ect..I just can't seem to come to terms with this.


Posts: 212 | Registered: Sep 2008 | From: Georgia
grownup
♀ Member
Member # 22285
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The memory thing and the alternate reality happens a lot with any addict dealing with pain. It is a psychological response in order to keep functioning (or at least tell yourself you are funtioning). Take child birth for example. We all know it hurts like crazy but we can remember the events after but not the pain. For the addict to numb the pain he has to make even the events become "gray" instead of black and white. Compartmentalizing. Lots of people compartmentalize when they are in a situation but then debrief themselves unconsciously to get back to reality and prepare for the next situation. Others, unfortunately, never debrief and every time they are hurt, caught, caught in a dangerous situation they create new boxes of stuff to push to the back of their mind and become very agitated if you try to bring the topics up.


Me:44
Him:44 SA
Married:14 years
D-day: too many, final Nov 8, 2008
Separating ,he's on the run

Posts: 153 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: alberta
1Forward1Back
♀ Member
Member # 11057
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NaiveAgain,

My H gaslighted me big time in order to protect his dirty little secret. I questioned my own sanity, my ability to recall events correctly and many other mental capabilities.

Looking back I know it was all part and parcel of his shame and inability to look at himself 'in the mirror' if you will.

BTW, I am doing fairly well. I am detaching bit by bit. I continue to be kind and gentle with my H but the detachment is palpable to him, I'm sure. I want to do this right, so I am taking my time and thinking carefully about my next step.


Me: 60 Yrs. (BS)
Him: 60 Yrs.(FWH- life long sex addict)
-2 ONSs followed by an A-2005/06
-cheated while we were engaged
-seems to stray every 30 years or so
D-Day-June 10, 2006
Working on own recovery. His is his!
Married: 37 yrs. Grown ch

Posts: 966 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Canada
Eternaloptimist
♀ Member
Member # 15029
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NA,

Your husband is terrified -- on some level he knows and thinks himself a "monster". Sounds like you're doing a good job of keeping yourself healthy...while holding up a mirror to him. He just keeps averting his eyes because he's afraid of what he'll see.
My husband always thought therapy was something HE didn't need -- he was fine, it was everyone else who was nuts. Truth is, he was so invested in his "story" that his childhood was perfect, his parents were great, he was successful, happily married, etc. etc. The idea of looking at why he was meeting strangers in parking lots for sex was something he just didn't want to face. These addicts are masters at compartmentalization. It's a survival skill, usually developed in childhood, to cope with actions that are completely inconsistent with values/beliefs. My husband wanted desperately to believe his father loved him...but his father smacked him around. What did he do? Told himself that he deserved the smacking around or simply told himself it hadn't happened. Tucked it away in a part of his memory that he never accessed.
Disclosing to me what he'd been doing for our entire relationship blew the doors wide open on all the things he's suppressed. He's so much prouder of who he is and how he copes. There's a huge difference. But I still remember DDay 2, when he told me everything and fully expected me to think he was a despicable low-life. Because he thought that about himself.
Not sure if any of this helps, but your husband sounds like a little boy full of bravado... In the meantime, of course, he's making you feel crazy...something addicts do so well.

1Forward,
Glad to hear you're doing well. Hang in there.

EO



Me: BS
Him: WS, SA
Married: 12 years
Three kids: 9-year-old D, 7-year-old S, 5-year-old D
D-Day #1: December 11, 2006 (LTA)
D-Day #2: June 17, 2007 (found out about SA)

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Toronto
grownup
♀ Member
Member # 22285
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((Happy Ending)) I hate the diagnosis too. I can't fix it and it won't ever go away for good and...because we have children he will never go away for good.

((1Forward)) I'm so proud of you for being able to detach and still stay "nice" right now. I'm trying hard to do that (the 180)but I'm also trying to keep a little distance for the next few days. Our contacts have been for him coming to the house to get paperwork from the house for his lawyer but, there is an expectation that when he phones that I'm supposed to jump right away to meet his needs and that he shouldn't have to wait for a convenient time for me and then when he is there he is nasty and rude. To be honest, I did that for way too long when he was in the house but he is refusing to accept this boundary I set.

Through H's work there is a person assigned to me because of the situation being volatile. (You'd have to read my profile to understand that.) I hadn't bothered her up til now but when she checked in with me yesterday I spilled it all- that I thought he creating a whole new world, has found a whole new way to tell our history, that he had eliminated his old friends, some family, and definitely the kids and I. I told them about the evidence that the addiction continues and is transisting. I told them about how raging he was with his psychologist and me in a combined session. I told them that in any conversation he seems to just be seething below the surface and that if and when he hits bottom it could be devastating for more than just him. I told them that I have people phoning my house in the wee hours of the morning looking for H and that it is literally making me sick. For once, I don't feel bad about telling the truth!!!!!

[This message edited by grownup at 2:45 PM, January 9th (Friday)]


Me:44
Him:44 SA
Married:14 years
D-day: too many, final Nov 8, 2008
Separating ,he's on the run

Posts: 153 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: alberta
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Eternaloptimist -yes thank you, that does help me and it is something I kind of suspected under the surface. I know he is afraid of himself, it is so sad, because he is truly a wonderful person excluding the addiction part.

His sister and I are afraid he will run again. When too much truth comes to him, or when things get too hard, he has a habit of "running". He can compartmentalize, put the past into a neat little box, throw away everything and just start completely over. He has threatened that before, whenever I bring this topic up, so it is really scary to even broach it. That is the main reason I am trying to take care of myself, because I won't live with things the way they are now, and I don't think he has the courage to change. I wish I could get him to realize that he could be so much happier and at peace!

Same thing for him with his dad--his dad was his hero, he made his mom out to be the bad guy. He says she abused him and abandoned the family. In talking with his sister, though, and his mom, the truth is that his dad sexually abused his mom and she had to leave when they were teenagers to protect her sanity. His dad loved him, I am sure, but was also a SA, and had 4 wives. But you cannot say anything negative about his dad to him, he has him on such a high pedestal.

(I try to tell him that it is okay to love and look up to his dad--his dad loved him and did the best he could, but he just had an illness that he couldn't control--he needs to see the good and bad, but still has the blinders on)


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 14915 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
1Forward1Back
♀ Member
Member # 11057
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The first thing I did at work today was read the section on Detachment in Melody Beattie's book, 'Codependent No More'. It's an excellent piece and helped center me.

I feel so awful for my H. He is just so sick and is full of shame and guilt. However, in detaching I cannot let this dictate what I do, except in helping me treat him with compassion.

One of Beattie's explanations of detachment is: If you were not married to this person, how would you conduct your life? Do that.

Very helpful.


Me: 60 Yrs. (BS)
Him: 60 Yrs.(FWH- life long sex addict)
-2 ONSs followed by an A-2005/06
-cheated while we were engaged
-seems to stray every 30 years or so
D-Day-June 10, 2006
Working on own recovery. His is his!
Married: 37 yrs. Grown ch

Posts: 966 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Canada
br0kenhearted
♀ Member
Member # 20469
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've been on SI for awhile now, but am new to this forum.

Following a link to Recovery Nation, and my own intuition, I've determined that my FWH is a sex addict.

He thinks so, too, but is still "digesting" the idea.

His parents are both addicts and so are mine, so it's no surprise to me that we end up here.

I want desperately for our daughter not to become an addict; that is what we are both working for, in addition to getting a marriage we both want.

Knowing he's an addict makes things better somehow, but I'm still struggling with the fact that he's been a liar and a cheat for 17 years.

I know I need to work on myself rather than him, rather than trying to control or rescue him, but damn it's hard to break patterns of behavior that have been with you all your life.


Me 34 yr old BS
Him 33 yr old FWH/SA
DD 10 months
D-Day #1: 2/11/01
D-Day #2: 6/19/08; full disclosure 7/14/08
6 OW over 17 years; twice with same woman
In IC and MC and working hard every day on R!

Posts: 69 | Registered: Jul 2008
birdwatch
♀ Member
Member # 19978
Default  Posted: 4:23 PM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

quirkina,

In response to your general question about sex addiction, you may read my Posts on Jan 8/09 6:04 and Jan 8/09 6:10.

Ladies,

Off for vacation - Talk to you all in a week. Take care.

birdwatch


* Known WS since 2001. Me: 37.
* D Day 1 - Mar 2008: Discovered cyber/phone sex, dating sites etc
* D Day 2 - May 2008: Discovered more "stuff". WS admitted to one A - my gut says > half a dozen.
* R'ing. IC & MC. WS is sex addict.

Posts: 377 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Toronto, Canada
lovedontlivehere
♀ Member
Member # 20055
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can so relate to what you all are saying about how your partner can't remember things correctly. I wonder if this goes hand in hand with the SA? It is so bad in our relationship that I have actually started bringing a notebook with me to counseling sessions and writing down what my WS says. At home, if we start "discussing" things, I go get the notebook and write everything down. Still the next day, or the next week, my WS will say "I have NEVER said that!" Now I can go get my notebook, open it up, and say "Yep, you did, it's right here". He always looks lost, confused, like he honestly doesn't remember what he said!

See, I never thought to write down everything he said, but I did think to right down URLs to his sites. I still have the bag of truth, just as a reminder. It's so hard to believe he was doing everything he was, and it's hard to believe I was so absorbed in it, I wrote down all those sites. (come to think, I wonder what I did with the urls from november)

My partner will also swear up and down he didn't say what he said. Classic example-we were driving, and passed an AMP. He started talking about how so many of them were fronts for prostitution. This was before I realized what he was up to. He swears up and down he didn't say it and that it doesn't sound like something he would say. Then of course if I were to bring that up in counseling he'd try to make me look like a liar. That's the bad part about he-he won't admit that maybe he forgot he said that (or was trying to lie) he'll accuse me of being crazy.

My partner also thinks he is deserving of infinite amounts of trust despite being perpetually dishonest. Crazy!!!

1F1B, I may need to reread that chapter in Codependent No More. Detaching is becoming more and more difficult. The latest things he's said and done to me just attacked me at my core.

NA, as far as him calling himself a monster, I read soemwhere (here? a book? I've read so much) that SAs judge themselves as society would judge them. A lot of people think SAs are just gross slime bags, sleazy, oversexed, etc. I remember when I asked a question about my partner on Yahoo!, and some of the answers weren't pretty at all. I'm not for sure if that's what's going on, it's just a guess.

Once again, I'm sorry for what he has said and done. (((((NA)))))


Partner still wanking off into fantasy land.
*update* No longer together, but he was STABBED and now wants R. Whatever.

Posts: 1256 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Deep South
grownup
♀ Member
Member # 22285
Default  Posted: 11:45 PM, January 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Help me make a rational decision please. It has been 7 days since H has seen the kids or spoke with them. He could have come to any of six activities this week(never comes to any of their activities ) or have asked for some time but has not. He does not phone them. He does complain to others however about his time with the kids. He is either compartmentalized us out of his life or on the run but it is frustrating and confusing for our children. Tell me if I'm an idiot and going against the 180 but I thought about phoning to see if he wants to attend a movie with us Sat night. (I'm so sick of being accused of interfering in his getting a new life yet I love my children, yet they say you can't make an SA do anything)My babies so do not deserve this. Feeling like I can't breathe


Me:44
Him:44 SA
Married:14 years
D-day: too many, final Nov 8, 2008
Separating ,he's on the run

Posts: 153 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: alberta
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 7:21 AM, January 10th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am so angry!!!
My SAH called me last night, told me he had a long talk with his mom (she is visiting him right now). He went to her, crying!, that I told him he was a sex addict. (Bad, bad me!!) He said she told him that I had been "picking her brain, because I am fascinated with the human mind" and I am trying to "fix" him. She was upset that I told my SAH some of the things she told me (she said to keep a few things secret--I did keep those things to myself--I did not tell him about the horrible things his dad did to his mom, I just told him his dad had sexual problems also, as this can run in families and start in childhood, because I was wanting to give him as much info as possible to help him think about. So now, she told him she can't tell me anything anymore, because I don't keep secrets, and he is mad at me for telling secrets (to him!) and they both think I am wanting to be a shrink and think of him as a human experiment. THEIR WHOLE FREAKING FAMILY IS A FU**ING CIRCUS!!! There is so many damn secrets in their family, it is the most insane thing I have ever seen!!!! I had a very close relationship with his mom. Now I will not even speak to her. Plus, she was the one that told me this stuff-- I would be too embarrassed to go to his mom and talk sex--she brought it all up!!!

I am not trying to "fix" him. I don't know how. I want him to get help!! (Like a CSAT). I just want him to realize he has a problem that needs help. How would dear mil like to know her dear sweet crying baby boy solicits prostitutes and wants to send his private parts to other people over the internet!!! Or that he prefers to play with himself instead of playing with his wife. Maybe I should tell her he booked a cruise, mostly for the idea of visiting a nude beach so we could "do it" in front of others!!! (Cruise got cancelled before I found that out, thank God!) What would she think of dear baby boy then! She was the one that told me to be careful when he moved away, because he had a sex problem, and she was afraid he might cheat on me! What the hell is she doing!!!!

Bunch of fu**ing nuts!!!!!!!!

ETA: The scary thing is, they have me doubting myself--I just went back to a couple sex addiction sites to take the tests again and read up to make sure I am not the one that is crazy

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 8:02 AM, January 10th (Saturday)]


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

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