But I did think it through more today. I really am not going to do this before my baby boy gets married. There are very good reasons for this and it is truly not a cop-out and delay technique. You have to know his future in-laws to get this. :-) It's a special day for both of them and this would impact that day and the planning of it in ways I can't begin to describe. Besides, I'm in no real hurry to do this now that I've made the decision. It's made, I'm doing it; it's just a matter of timing now.
You leave when YOU are ready, not when anyone else feels you should. I don't see that there needs to be a hurry, I am sure taking my time, although I guess I am pushing him towards breaking it off with my constant "nagging" about him to get help. (I don't really nag, I just tell him I won't move in with him until he does, but --same difference to him).
It is really scary to think of leaving after so long, especially when you have to deal with finances. I'm glad you are taking some measures there also.
Hi 7yrs! Glad you are back, too, and hope everything went okay for you!
If you read back through her posts you might get a better idea too. She came onto my radar with the post titled "2nd Dday? Joined Dating Service" but I sent her a PM rather than post.
I just see red flags and a pattern of behavior that is all too familiar to me so I tossed the info out there.
I have nowhere near the experience of the more senior members on this board, but I have lived with my SAh for almost 5 years, and am learning more daily, and Iwillrecover, your H has no reason at all to go on so many dating sites. You don't do that in a healthy marriage, and what is sticking out to me, is the fact that your H is saying the SAME EXACT stuff my H told me.
"I was bored, I was curious," and recently, he had told me that he ordered the cable ppv porn crap because he was angry with me for not trusting him. (How is that for making sense, I didn't trust he was staying off the porn, so he got angry and watched it)
Like you, in the beginning, I pretty much believed everything my H said, because he loved me, and he was such a good guy, I just couldn't believe he would do all this stuff. Even when I found him on a dating site saying "new at this but willing to try". And found an email to an escort service saying "if the price is right, maybe we can get together", among other crap.
He had so many excuses, and I bought every one in the beginning, because I didn't want to not believe him. My "gut" feeling was something was off, and that was what sent me here to these boards, and with a lot of education, I started understanding sex addiction, and realized that there were so many more behaviors to look for than just the porn, that I didn't really need to find any more porn to realize he was deep into addiction.
Even now, he is such a good manipulator, I get confused sometimes, but I post here and my head clears up quick! (Again, thank you, my friends!)
I'm going to post a separate message for last night's call, just letting you all know how right on you are with this stuff.
Take care, Iwillrecover, and even though I know you are in shock, you will be okay. Keep posting here, there are a lot of strong arms and loving hearts to help hold you up thru all this!
Stay firm in your boundaries to protect you, hun, he aint done with his game, and he's never, ever even started facing what he really needs to
I figured he was for sure done, but you were so right! Also about him not facing it at all! More total manipulation.
Last night he called to start working on the divorce. Ended up telling me again, that I obsessed myself right out of a relationship, because I can't let this go and trust that he is working hard on himself. He kept saying when I am around, he doesn't need this stuff, because his family occupies all his time. He went on to explain how he really doesn't think he has an addiction, because he CAN stay away from it, he hasn't done anything since the cable crap. He said, "Even though I've been incredibly angry with you, this time I didn't turn to the porn". I asked him why, he said because I did open his eyes that it wasn't healthy, but mostly, he said he couldn't believe all the money he wasted on that stuff. But like I posted earlier, it is his other behaviors that I can't tolerate anymore, even worse than the porn. The lying to not just everyone else, but to himself! The rewriting history. I cannot have a "sane" relationship with someone who is so mentally ill.
Plus, we are back to he doesn't really have an addiction, he said if he has a sex addiction, I need to own my own sh*t and realize I have a computer addiction, and that I don't value his feelings in this M because he got rid of the computer for me, because it made me uncomfortable because of his porn, but I won't stop talking to my friends on here, which makes him uncomfortable.
And I am smarter now, because I now see he is trying to isolate me, so he can control and manipulate, and get me away from anyone that helps me see the truth. Yaah for me! HOw sad, though, that I trust my virtual friends here more than my H. But in my heart, I know you guys speak the truth. I'm not leaving here!
I could have a M on his terms, he told me he wasn't going to wait around for a wife that wouldn't come down there until he gets help, he was trying to manipulate me again into giving up on the counseling stuff. Boy is he persistent!
So, I told all the kids last night that we were done. My littlest one is taking it so hard, she did talk to him for a few minutes. I hate him for putting her thru that. Selfish idiot. We had originally planned a couple months back to go down by him on spring break, but I cancelled those tickets a week or two ago. I told her we would do some fun things together, just me and her, and she could have her friends over, but I know she is going to need to grieve, and it breaks my heart, so much more than anything he has done to me. When I saw her tears last night, I almost posted on here that I wanted to kill him, for being so selfish. I will not let him put her thru the ups and downs I have been thru, so we are for sure done, because once I have put my kids thru this heartbreak, that is it for me. No going back, I will not have them go thru the ups and downs. In my head, I consider myself free now, with just some financial entangelments to clear up, and if he doesn't file within a month or so, I will file myself.
He wants an anullment, he did one of those before with a previous wife, and I am okay with that, it is cheaper, and if he does what he says he will do, it will be a somewhat fair break, and if he doesn't, I will file D and fight him for my rights. I know what I want from him there also, but I prefer to not let this get nasty if possible.
His last D with his last wife was peaceful (not just what he said, but also his family, who tends to tell the truth a bit more), and they remained friends (they were married 9 years), so that is what I am hoping for, but I doubt I will talk to him again once we are completely finished.
There is no need to defend your decision to stay, or leave, or when. Please know that we care about you, and we are here to support you no matter what decision you make.
Congratulations on your son's wedding. I hope you are able to find joy in the planning and the occasion.
You are in my thoughts.
I am terribly sorry about how events unfolded. I only wish to say that I am thinking of you and you children, and we will support you during this difficult time. Take it one day at a time and look after yourself.
PS You should see a lawyer just to be informed about your options and the pros and cons of each.
I didn't mean to make it sound like I was defending my decision. When I post, I am thinking out loud and converting that to text. Know what I mean? I'm working out my thoughts in type.
I figured he was for sure done, but you were so right! Also about him not facing it at all! More total manipulation.
One thing I am doing now is avoiding any discussion of these things. As soon as we start to discuss the SA, he reaches in and looks hard to find something to say that will justify his current plan and to dismiss my concerns. If we don't discuss it, he can't do that.
Yesterday as I was posting here, he started to get antsy. He asked me who I was talking to. And then he said, "Are you on SI? What did your IC tell you about that."
Actually that didn't make me mad. It's sad really. He's hoping so much that I do the things that make him feel comfortable, including those things my IC says that he agrees with. It's all so twisted, isn't it. My IC is helping me see that I need to leave him to save myself, and maybe him too, but my SA encourages me to listen to her. I feel sad for his desperation; his desperation to hold on to me and his addiction.
I feel sad for his desperation; his desperation to hold on to me and his addiction.
That's the thing, isn't it? It really is sad that some people are so messed up that they'll lose what's healthy in their lives to hang on to some illusion. I wonder, too, if the sadness is what trips us up and makes us feel sorry for and guilty about hurting the SA. It's easy to hang onto resolve when we're angry...but when the anger gives way to sadness, it's sometimes tempting to give in so we don't have to feel like the "bad guy". But for those who are walking away, you've given all you could -- and more. And in return you've been given excuses, manipulation, lies... So stay firm.
I had an interesting IC session yesterday. I had made a comment a few weeks ago about how I view myself as a "screw-up" -- from childhood to adulthood and how I spend so much of my adult life trying to "undo" the person I was: achieving professionally, trying to be supermom, the perfect wife, the perfect friend, the perfect everything.
My IC asked me if I could look back at the kid I was -- whose mom attempted suicide a few times, was an alcoholic and prescription drug addict, whose father was an alcoholic -- and see her with compassion. This arose partly because I said I really struggle with people's anger. It gives me knots in my stomach. We talked about how, when I was a kid and my mom would come from from the psych hospital for a weekend, how I would often be blamed when she had to go back early -- I was too demanding, or said something wrong, or did something to upset her. My IC asked me if I could see now that I was a just a kid who needed adults in her life to BE adults...and I still really can't see that. I still think I should have made better choices back then instead of drinking too much myself, skipping school...I always felt such shame about my family and who I was. I don't know why this is so hard for me to see. I can see when I look at my own 10-year-old daughter that she's just a kid. I don't know why I look at myself at that age and think I should have been better at being an adult.
I'm rambling a bit...but can anyone else help me see myself with a bit more compassion? This is holding me back, I think, from also being able to see my husband with more compassion. I have the same expectations of him -- I don't see him as a kid-turned-adult who sought comfort in very unhealthy ways. I still have anger relating to the choices he made.
Not sure if I'm making any sense...but if any of you have insight, I'd appreciate it.
Honey, I'm sorry. It stinks that he's not ready to face his demons. You do what you need to in order to protect you and the kids, and if it were me I would talk to a D attorney or two for a free consult on the D versus annullment issue, and find out what is best for YOU. Sad, bu true, most D's are not very amicable, and while it is mature and hopeful to approach it that way, it is also wise and responsible to have that contigency plan in place. ACT, don't just react, KWIM?
In a way, it is good that he's doing this the way he is. I guess I mean it is soooo clear he is letting his addiction rule him, you're dealing with the addict in him, not the core him. So I would think it might be clearer that you have to defend your boundaries when this is what he's doing. I guess, at least he's not making hard to decide whether he's in control or his addiction.
We here for you, hun. I KWYM when you say that you're not going to yo-yo the kids with on again, off again. It makes your resolve stronger. Since there is the tiniest chance he may choose recovery someday, you might not want to leave this as a "he's NEVER coming back" thing. I dunno.....
We're here for you, toots, and I'm sorry you had to defend your boundaries, but I'm so proud of you for doing it.
I still think I should have made better choices back then instead of drinking too much myself, skipping school...
You're looking at your behavior then with the filters of the experiences that you didn't have then, KWIM? What example did you have to follow of what happened when someone made responsible choices? Heck, who did you know who did make responsible choices?
You are looking at that girl still, but not empathizing with her, you're judging her. She's a kid who felt no unconditional love or security from her parents. In fact, those parents held that poor girl to expectations about doing what they expected and being obedient, when they held themselves to no such standards. Kids normally have such security and attachment to their parents, they test their parents by acting up, pulling away, pushing limits. Heck, even if you DID do everything they expected, could you be certain at all they'd be approving and loving?
So what's the pay-off for such a kid to make wise choices? Why wouldn't this girl numb it all away with drinking, did she have any better, healthier coping skills at her disposal?
No, I'm not justifying or saying its okay to do, I'm saying I can have compassion for that girl and understand why she made the choices she did. Poor thing, honestly, what other tools or examples did she have to make better choices?
I don't know why I look at myself at that age and think I should have been better at being an adult.
Maybe because you were left so hurt and vulnerable by how you were raised, it makes you feel safer, more protected, more in control NOW to believe you could have made things better back then. You couldn't have, you were a kid. It was their job to protect you and they didn't. Today, you can protect you. Tha's our lovely boundaries lesson we're all working constantly with. But as a child, those boundaries were the responsibility of 2 folks who didn't do their job, not because anything was wrong with you, but because they were broken.
[This message edited by JustWow at 11:42 AM, March 13th (Friday)]
edited for typos (I always have to!)
Let that little girl know that she is loved, that she could not have possibly known what to do with only some elementary school education, and no stability in sight. That little girl DESERVES your love and compassion. And she needs it. She will forever be wandering, scared and acting out, because she doesn't know any better, until you can give her some peace. I can cry for that little girl. So should you. (((hugs)))
[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 12:53 PM, March 13th (Friday)]
You have confronted many hardships in your life. I am terribly sad to hear about your struggles.
Try to remember how you felt when you were a child in the darkest moments - when your parents were drunk, when your mother was ill, when your mother was taken away to the hospital and when she attempted suicide. Avoid judgement. Simply remember and observe those feelings. Did you feel helpless, confused, scared, ashamed, lonely and worthless? Did you blame yourself? Did you want desparately to escape from the pain and chaos, which you are too young to understand or resolve?
Then try to imagine if you, as an adult, now see another child going through those experiences, what would you say to him or her?
Also try putting yourself in the shoes of a detached, rational, impartial, third party observer. If you had done X or not done Y when you were a child, would your parents stop drinking? Is it reaonsable to expect a child to handle those trying circumstances on her own without any positive role model or guidance?
How about imagining what you would say to your late mother about your childhood. Tell her how scared you were, how confused you were because you did not understand, how much you wished her to hold you and tell you everything will be okay, how much you wish her to tell you it is not your fault, how much you have tried in your own way to make things better, and how much you want to be loved?
Finally, your drive to perfection as an adult may be a coping mechanism for the feeling of lack of control. Terrible events over which we have no control have happened in our lives. Many of us are desparate to create an illusion of control by being compulsive perfectionists. It is "easier" to demand the humanly impossible of ourselves, then to accept the undeniable fact of life that we have no control over many things. It's too scary. May be you can explore that with your IC.
It will likely be one of the most heart wrenching experience you have had. You may wish to explore those feelings in the presence of your IC. However, healing is not only healing from our husband's SA, but also healing from our past. We are all here, embracing you.
[This message edited by birdwatch at 1:09 PM, March 13th (Friday)]
(((((HUGS)))) to all the newcomers
Look it up on ebay, see wha it is worth. Could just put an end to that arguement - pronto
Your husband's debate with you about the worth of Playboy is SO missing the point.
Is it reasonable for an alcoholic to keep alcohol at home with the justification that the booze is expensive?
Whether the Playboy is or is not a collector's item and therefore worth a lot is irrelevant. The relevant points are: (a) He is a sex addict and the purchase and possession of Playboy is not acceptable and not conducive to his recovery; (b) Even if he is not a sex addict, he should not be purchasing or keeping Playboy when his wife is not comfortable with it.
If the Playboy is really a collector's item and worth a lot of money, how about you two sit down together and sell them all on ebay. You can then spend the profit on something both of you can enjoy. Now that would show commitment on his part to recovery and to rebuilding the marriage.
[This message edited by birdwatch at 4:42 PM, March 13th (Friday)]
I think my husband is lying when he tells me that he never had a PA, he says it was all online & with web cams. He said he never called anyone & no one ever called him. But I just can't believe this. Especially if he is a true sex addict, as long as he's had porn issues, I don't see how it hasn't escalated into a PA & it sure wasn't with me. Other than the first 2 weeks after we moved in together, he's never desired sex with me.
I've begged for the truth, I've told him how I have this feeling that he's not told me EVERYTHING yet, but he keeps insisting that he has.
After denying to me that there was anything else I didn't know about just 1 & 2 nights before (looked me right in the eye & lied) He told me that he accessed a "forgotten" Ashley Madison account 4 times in Dec & spent over 100.00. He said "we were fighting all the time" (which we weren't. Dec was pretty happy.) He only told me after I told him that I was going to get the credit card statements & see what I could find & then he waited till the day before I was to get them.
So his word means shit right now. My gut is screaming that he had some sort of physical affair with another woman. He was signed up for so many personals sites & "married looking to cheat" sites. He posted pics.
I guess I"m looking for advice on how to find the truth & opinions here.
PS...he told me one of the APs names was Nikki, I just found that he was looking up a porn star named Nikki back then. Does this mean he's lying about the AP's name? Or do you think it's a coincidence?
[This message edited by Holeinmysoul at 5:05 PM, March 13th (Friday)]
Ty for your input. You're right-that's not the real issue.
I wish he would just be frank and say, "I don't really care what you think. I do what I want."
I also think that because i'm a full 16 years younger than him, that I'll believe anything he says.
He doesn't see himself as a sex addict. He's been told he wasn't one by a counselor, and he compares himself to friends who probably are the stereotypical sex addicts while he is not.
I hate how he thinks everything is ok as long as he says he loves me. Whatever!
Thanks for your post...it brought tears to my eyes when I read your profile.
He denies being an addict but he does admit to having an addictive personality (like there's a diff). He says he looked into the definition of a SA years ago and denies that he is one. He compared it to being an alcoholic..just b/c he has a few drinks doesn't make him one....he says he doesn't "need" to go online..it was just as a result of his lonlyness. He claims to have only gone onto porn sites and hooked up with OW during times when he was lonely & depressed...when our relationship was on the rocks...
Part of me wants to believe this & part of me (my heart) knows there's more.
[This message edited by Jacqueline911 at 6:29 PM, March 13th (Friday)]