I've tried to just keep the peace with him, still doing that walking around on eggshells thing. Don't want to upset him because then he goes off and makes my life miserable.
But he just upset me so much today. We're getting to the point where we have to put the dog down (I am getting to that point as I'm the one dealing with it, not him off in his little love nest.) So I texted him today to say the dog had been sick again and we need to think about it being time. No response. But while I'm home at lunch, cleaning up more messes, I get a text that he meant to send to his girlfriend. "Hi love, how's your day? Mine's fine except she texted me that she wants to put the dog down. Didn't even say good morning first." I wanted to puke. How is it that he can still make me feel like such a piece of shit for standing up for my own needs? And then to have to see how nice he is to her and how he's making me out to be such an unfeeling bitch. Like I want to put my 15 year old dog down.
I just want to crawl under the covers and cry.
i'm so sorry that you have to put your dog down... and i completely understand. there are some things that i wish i had not told mine because i usually end up regretting it.
But while I'm home at lunch, cleaning up more messes, I get a text that he meant to send to his girlfriend.
I highly doubt it was an accident, you getting that text.
You need to go NC with him. You do not have to talk to him about the dog anymore – if he had time to craft an email to the OW about the topic, he had time to answer you, yes?
His lack of response indicates he doesn’t care. So sally forth without him – you, YOU, alone are capable of deciding when it’s time to put the dog to sleep, and you and your Vet can make that decision without your ex’s input.
What’s the worst he can say? That you didn’t tell him? Are you afraid he’ll tell people what a horrible person you are?
So what! He’s a liar, telling people that are not in any way, shape or form in charge of your life, lies about you.
It took me a long time after the divorce from my NPD ex to realize that I could not stop him from spouting off about how horrible I was. I always felt the need to defend myself, to shout from the rooftop what a liar and cheat he was. Once I realized that I couldn’t change his behavior, but could change my reaction to it, I was able to decide how to move forward from there.
But first things first – stop talking to him. Just stop it. When you do talk to him, it’s about the facts only, and via email. Not texts, not phone calls – email. Trust me on this.
The anger you feel is part of the grieving and it is prefectly normal to feel anger at him for what he has done and continues to do. The anger is also covering up hurt so until you are able to get back the hurt you may feel some real anger as a defense. That is where counceling, reading on here and talking this all out can really help. The healing will take time and you have to work at it.
His anger towards you is his projection. The more angry he is the closer to the truth you are. Even 7 yrs out my ex is still angry at me and treats me poorly when we have contact most of the time (unless he wants something and then he is nicey nicey, then I know to really watch out). What he has to be angry about is beyond me. I am apparently a vendictive bitch who is the cause of anything bad in his life and am robbing him blind with the CS I 'force' him to pay (whatever). As long as he whines and take the anger out on anyone but me and the kids I don't give a crap. Personally I would love it if he vents at the wifetress but who knows.
You have nothing to defend yourself from as far as your actions. The real person you are will show through to people in time and defending yourself can be percieved as you being something you are not or the crazy one because you are reacting while he is turning on the charm to whoever behind your back. It can make it worse rather than better in many cases. Leave him enough rope to hang himself, he will trust me.
As for the poor furbaby I would think it is up to you to care for it. I know how gut wrenching it is to have a sick pet. I would not expect imput from him if at all possible (other than having the vet send him the bill or atleast 1/2 of it since it is a marital pet)
You will get through this.
The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.
A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.
Anyway, you are absolutely right. I need to not lower myself to his childish temper tantrums. What does it matter if he calls me a bad mother? I know I'm not. Thanks. I'm so glad this group is here. I needed a little kick in the pants and a reminder of what he is.
I mean really....who cares what his opinion is about anything?? What a jerk!!
I'm so sorry about your doggie.
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)
One question. How?? How do you go NC when you have to coordinate child pick up, homework, kid behavior issues, stuff like that?
One question. How?? How do you go NC when you have to coordinate child pick up, homework, kid behavior issues, stuff like that?
First, all communication that is not an emergency (and I mean "i'm taking our son to the emergency room because his appendix burst) emergency is done via email.
Second, if he broaches a topic that is not on your own comfort list, you hang up/close the door/end the conversation/stare at him blankly.
Seriously. Just walk away. Not in anger, not with an attitude, just walk away. I don't even both to tell my ex "I do not want to discuss this in person", because invariably he would say "Why not?" to try to keep the conversation going.
Example of how to do this:
Phone rings, I answer "Hello?"
Him: "I want to pick up and take the kids to dinner tonight. Does that work?"
Me: <either> Yes, what time?
Him: I'll have them home by 7pm.
Me: Okay bye
OR Me: No, we have plans.
Him: But I really want to see them!!!
Me: We have plans. Bye.
AND HANG UP THE PHONE.
No chit chat, no "isn't the weather nice?", nothing.
If we have a concert/game/whatever to attend for our child, I sit with my husband. If Ex sits next to us, he is essentially ignored all night. He is a stranger to me. If he asks me something, or says something in a conversational way, I simply smile at him like I would a simple-minded stranger, and return to ignoring him.
I don't give a flying flip how that looks to anyone, I don't care if it hurts his little feelings, I just do it.
I am asking that all transitions be done at a neutral location - my son's daycare. I want face to face transitions to be as minimal as possible - also in the best interest of the children.
I want everything from clothing to haircuts to be outlined in the agreement - as an NPD will exploit every possible avenue they can.
I want all CS to be done through state enforcement - again - minimizing conflict and contact.
I have already refused to have any verbal discussions with him regarding our son. I have told him point blank (and am asking the courts to put it in the agreement) that all communication (other than emergencies) are done via EMAIL.
You have to dis-engage as much as you can. An NPD will use your children as an avenue to you as much as they possibly can, and you have to put a stop to that.
My ex can't handle that his crap does get him anywhere so he has basically gone NC with me and the kids. That is fine by me because it saves alot of agravation. As the children get old they can take over quite a bit of the communication about their lives etc. themselves. I personally don't tell me ex anything about the kids unless I need to. IMHO if he wants to know about their lives he can as them, they are 14 and 17. If he wants to know about their school or school events then he can either talk to the kids or call the school etc. Mind you I have sole custody and don't need his input or permission for anything either, it helps so much.
I copied this list from wikipedia, which says the diagnosis is based on 5 or more:
has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) --I don't really know if he does or not. He has definitely exaggerated his accomplishments, but I'm not sure he expects to be recognized as superior.
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love -- I have no idea if he has such fantasies. I know that he has always sort of looked down on his own occupation and the types he's often met in it, even though it's a vitally important job. I've always felt that he had some odd notion that marriage should be a perpetual honeymoon and blamed me for it not being so.
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) -- again, not sure if he thinks this, although I have thought at times he and his family are a little impressed with themselves and think they're all quite wonderful. He does at times complain he doesn't fit in with others, that he's not like others, because he's from a different country.
requires excessive admiration --definitely. He seems to need everyone to think he's wonderful even if it means running me down. When I started telling my family the whole truth was when he started telling THEM I was flipping out over him having his own e-mail account (not mentioning that it was secret or that he was contacting women in it, but trying to paint me as a controlling bitch.)
has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
-- I'm not sure. He works hard for what he has. On the other hand, he spends faster than he earns, probably pumping over $100 a month into lattes, and that much again into fast food and junk food and other things just because he wants them. He'll drive our daughter to school and come home with a latte, for instance, times when I would have just waited until I got home and gotten my coffee 'free.' He has an ipod touch, despite us having a very large family to care for. I would never think of spending that much on myself.
He does expect that I should give him huge kudos for getting us back to where my family lives, and does seem to expect that I should just put aside the little issue of multiple lt ea's and a ONS and years of lies because after all, he made this huge sacrifice.
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
-- again, hard to say, he's such a 'nice guy.' And yet, I feel he definitely took massive, huge advantage of my trust and love every time he lied to me. But then, isn't that true of any cheater? I feel he took advantage of my love for the kids-- for years I held my tongue about a lot of things because every time I objected, he started getting very curt and nasty to the kids. Just like physical abuse, I held my tongue so THEY wouldn't get suffer.
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others -- TOTALLY. He even says repeatedly that he'd be upset if I did this, doesn't know if he could ever forgive me, and yet goes right back to saying it's not that big a deal when HE does it.
is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her -- I think it's possible; I don't really know.
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes -- again, I would have said, a few years ago, that he's very insecure. And yet in a way, he's also very arrogant, especially in the way he's treated me. He's always let me know his family is much better than mine.
Does this sound like NPD?
About the only way I could see someone like this agreeing would be if they have something else far better waiting in the wings (like they have manage to hide large assets or running off with someone rich who will treat them like the think they deserve (tossing other aside like they didn't exist because they have no value is their way to deal with the BS)
If someone has NPD and are agreeable wathc out because it just isn't good.
Capris it can be very hard to really see the real person until you are able to take a step back from the R a bit. They can ofter treat their spouse with both value and contempt alternately because while you serve some purpose to them they don't want to lose you. Once they get to the place where they have "discarded you" then more of their true colours come out.
They become hateful, coniving, maipulative, vendictive, and just all around horrific to their BS. Like an alien took them over. They are amazingly good actors so the behaviours are not always visable to those around when they want to hide behind a mask.
I think pretty much anyone who has NPD or BPD will fight you in a divorce and cause all kinds of drama because they have such a HUGE sense of entitlement.
Well, crap. Or maybe mine's not really NPD. I put it to you all, because I see a lot of these things in him. And sorry if this verges on ventish.
My WH manages to come off as incredibly smooth, charming, funny, self-deprecating, etc. People love him. I loved him. He acted like I was the greatest thing in the world, and was so thoughtful, blah blah blah. Until he knew he had me. Then, though, he started missing lunch dates, because he had overslept, gotten to work late, etc--little things, but still, he knew I was waiting for him, and wouldn't respond to my calls or emails until it was too late for me to even get something myself.
Anything I would ask him to do would be ignored or "forgotten." He would promise to do it repeatedly, and then, when I would finally get exasperated and pissed off, tell me I was a control freak, I should do it myself, I had anger issues, etc.
I can't remember being shown a real (positive) emotion in years towards me. When he does try, post D-Day, they come out stilted and fake, just like his apologies always have. In fact, one of our earliest and ongoing arguments was that his apologies just sucked. There was nothing behind them, I swear. He would say the words, sometimes, but I have never believed them. He used that as another example of my being unreasonable and crazy. It has only been in the past year or so it has become clearer to me that the reason his apologies seem empty is because they are.
He lies about everything. And I do mean EVERYTHING. He used to lie about feeding the animals--telling me he had done it when he hadn't, so they would sometimes go days without food. He breaks all my stuff, and then lies about how it wasn't him. And whenever confronted about anything he tells me he knows he's a good person.
His lies also make him sound better--I have heard him tell stories that I know, that I was there for, yet suddenly they are completely different--people are telling him he is the best candidate for the job they have ever seen (but not hired), he stopped a burglar (got knocked down by a senior citizen shoplifting), etc. When he used to tell me the things that happened to him, I used to think his life was absolutely unbelievable. Now I know why--it's all bull.
He also thinks he is better than everyone else, although he is very careful not to voice that opinion very loud or to too many people. He holds a position of some power, too, and I know that he views it as his due.
He also always wants to keep me separate from the rest of his life. This was true before (I think) he was having an affair. He has spent months, if not years, running around telling everyone I am a bitch, probably ever since I started to see through him. We have had some mutual friends in the past, but they are all my friends. The one friend who came from him has long since been abandoned, and I have recently started wondering if there is something I should know there.
He also seems to think that he's too smart to get caught in his lies, and can be incredibly arrogant. He continues to tell me blatant lies--no, that wasn't an email from MOW you saw, how could I have deleted it in the 10 minutes I had after knocking you over to grab the computer. No, I have no clue how her contact information changed to hide under different names in my email accounts. And so on. He actually lied to the MC about how the number on our cell phone bill was a male work buddy's. That he texted 100 times a day or more. And that he refused to let the MC call the number to see who actually answered. Although he steadfastly refused to admit it was her. I think he thinks if he just says it enough, you will have to believe it. And for a while, I did. I thought maybe I was crazy. When he would quote me to me, but say it wrong, and eventually I thought maybe I did say that... Or he would deny having said things that had just come out of his mouth. And so on.
Sadly, I could go on, but I’d be amazed to find anyone is still reading this. So, for those of you with some experience in this matter, what do you think? NPD?
Edited to fix typos.
[This message edited by sick_of_the_lies at 10:50 AM, January 26th (Tuesday)]
capri: a lot of those qualities are hard to define. i'll go back through your posts and see what i can find.
Our MC diagnosed him as NPD, with flavorings from various other personality disorders. Of course, he's not a dr, so it's not an official diagnosis.
How do you deal with the fact that your partner (and for many of you, ex-partner) is just an empty void or worse at his core?
A frequent observation I have made as a couples therapist is that the more narcissistic partner is often a better sleeper than the more neurotic partner. Part of that reason is that narcissists are not bothered by guilt or anxiety regarding whatever their partner feels. The exception is when a narcissistic person's immoral or illegal behavior has put him or her at risk of being discovered or legally apprehended. At those times he or she will most often turn to alcohol or drugs to calm themselves down.
Narcissists can keep a neurotic awake, because the fear, hurt and/or anger (and subsequent guilt and anxiety over being so angry) a neurotic feels at being cared so little about can play over and over in their mind, making it difficult to fall asleep. What can you do about it if you're sleeping with a narcissist?
Since once they're in your life (and taking from you) and it's difficult to get them out, it may be helpful to know how to identify them early. To do so, try using The Narcissist Inventory* rating the person on a 1-to-3 scale (1 = rarely; 2 = sometimes; 3 = frequently):
1.How often does the person need to be right at all costs?
2.How often does the person act impatient with you for no good reason?
3.How often does the person interrupt you in the middle of what you're saying, and yet take offense if you interrupt?
4.How often does the person expect you to drop whatever you're thinking about and listen to him or her--and does the person take offense when you expect the same in return?
5.How often does the person talk more than he or she listens?
6.How often does the person say "Yes, but," "That's not true," "No," "However," or "Your problem is"?
7.How often does the person resist and resent doing something that matters to you, just because it's inconvenient?
8.How often does the person expect you to cheerfully do something that's inconvenient for you?
9.How often does the person expect you to accept behavior that he or she would refuse to accept from you?
10.How often does the person fail to say "Thank you," "I'm sorry," "Congratulations," or "Excuse me" when it's called for?
To score your inventory, add up the total:
10-16 =The person is cooperative
17-23 = The person is argumentative
24-30 = The person is a narcissist
And by the way, narcissists not only come in the aggressive type that we are so used to. Excessively needy people who whine, complain, make excuses and feel sorry for themselves can also exhibit many of the behaviors in the Narcissist Inventory and can be just as "self-involved" as the the more aggressive variety.
Second, it's a good idea to steer clear of them and not let them in your life in the first place. If they already are, try to minimize your contact with them. Whenever they demand something from you (they usually don't ask), have a handy counter request ready such as: "Sure and by the way that reminds me I'd appreciate it if you would do x for me." If they balk and say, "Never mind," respond "Okay." If they say, "Why do you always have to ask for something in return?" respond, "Because since what you're asking me to do is something out of my usual routine, it's a favor and I'm happy to grant it, but then of course I get to ask you one in return."
Third, the best way to clean out the narcissists from your life is to begin spending more time and building deep and lasting relationships with those wonderful people who are naturally generous, caring and kind. Not only will those people make you a better person, they will cause you to become so repulsed by the narcissists that you will no longer be able to be around them.
* Narcissist Inventory source: "Steer Clear of Toxic People," from "Just Listen" Discover the Secret to Getting Through to Absolutely Anyone (AMACOM, $24.95)