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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Npd Thread Part V II
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, May 4th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SoCalDad
I agree with jjct! Please keep recording. Figure out a way around the law later. Remember you can't go back and do it later.

She has vowed in the past to make my life a living hell and she is living up to it.

If she has said this, believe her and prepare for it.

I've had to spend over $10,000 in attorney's fees and we haven't even had our first court date.

Well sorry to tell you this, but get out your checkbook. I spent A-LOT more than that and we had NO children and NO marital property to speak of. An NPD will spend $10,000 fighting over a $5 dinner fork. They expect to get everything and for you to get NOTHING and they will spend everything they have to do just that.

She really has pulled out all the stops at trying to get to me since I told her I wanted a divorce. She has yelled, belittled me, insulted me and thrown stuff on me and all I did in response was laugh at her and tell her that her little tricks won't work anymore.

Let her go on and be nasty. But you need to STOP responding in ANY WAY. All you will do by laughing or repsonding in any way at all is escallate her rage. You need to go complete and total NC. Have your attorney deal with her with everything. I know it seems this will cost more, but believe me, in the long run it will cost MUCH less by having the attorney deal with her.

Keep recording her and share the information with your attorney so he/she knows what they are dealing with. If they can find a loop hole way to use that information against her, let them. But at this point, all you should be recording is messages.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 10:07 PM, May 4th (Tuesday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:50 PM, May 4th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

sadtoo: Thank you for answering my post. I really appreciate it. Going on sites that list NPD symptoms doesn't really help.

Would you mind answering one more question? One of the biggest things mentioned on these sites is that a NPD can't empathize. Can or do they fake it? Or act like they can? I told my IC that my WH always seemed to empathize and sympathize if I was telling him a problem from work or a friend, but if it ever involved something about us, or something I felt he did to hurt my feelings, whoa! He twisted and turned it until I was apologizing to him!! She said if it was empathy, it was very superficial.

So, can they fake empathy?

[This message edited by honesttoafault at 11:08 PM, May 4th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
mommyblonde
♀ Member
Member # 22548
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, May 4th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would love to hear the answers to this question - I have been wondering the exact same thing about STBXWH.


"When a heart breaks no it don't breakeven" The Script

Posts: 513 | Registered: Jan 2009
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 12:22 AM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Empathy is one of the things the NPD definitely lacks. It gets confusing because you are right. They can at times SEEM as if they have amazing empathy. But like you also said, that is mostly when it comes to "other" people and "other" situations. I believe the reason this happens is because they hear other people commenting on these same situations and the NPD simply mimic the actions of these other people and copy their words. It all sounds good to us at the time and it seems as if the NPD has empathy, and really cares, right?

But put the NPD in a situation where the empathy applies to HIM/her and the NPD actually has to UNDERSTAND the feelings and emotions of a situation and they will get it wrong every time. Sometimes they can come close but if you listen very carefully, their description of their own empathy or sympathy in any given situation will always be a little "off".

I remember when I was going through this with my XNPDH. He was so unplugged emotionally, it was freaky. He would be trying to explain to me he that understood how I felt about something and it was always so "off". Even when they are trying to pretend or fake it or copy....ask for more details. You will be amazed at the disconnected string of information you will receive.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 10:10 AM, May 5th (Wednesday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 1:28 AM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They expect to get everything and for you to get NOTHING and they will spend everything they have to do just that.

Word.

So, can they fake empathy?

I do think that they become very adept at mirroring and mimicking others' emotions...when necessary to obtain favor or to look good in front of others.

However, with my XH, I can see other behaviors that would come out instead of the appropriate display of empathy, sympathy, sorrow, etc. Mine would become the "strong one", the one keeping it together for everyone else, that type of thing. I think this is just how others would interpret his *odd* reactions to things.

Another thing I can see now after being free from him for a time now, is that I was forever making excuses for him. Especially to my kids. Apologizing for him, explaining away abusive behaviors, etc. I also was constantly telling him how to act, what to do. ("You need to go apologize to DS. You hurt his feelings.", etc.)

Another thing that mine would do -- Use hurtful sarcasm CONSTANTLY, and when people were upset or hurt by it, and he would get a reaction that he couldn't relate to on an emotional level, he would say, "I'm kidding", or become defensive and say, "what? you can't take a joke?"

Did I say how much I love being out of his grasp?

[This message edited by woundedby2 at 1:30 AM, May 5th (Wednesday)]


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7633 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
SoCalDad
♂ New Member
Member # 28234
Default  Posted: 2:45 AM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I record when I feel there is an exception to the recording law. I can't afford to record all of the time because if it were discovered I would lose my job. I was ok on the few recordings I made and my criminal attorney provided them to the DA considering the domestic violence case. They showed she was lying and really helped get the case rejected.

I have to have some contact with WW because we have 4 children together and are currently trying to sell our house. Sometimes it seems as if she has two personalities. Sometimes she can be reasonable and other times she goes off the deep end and makes all kinds accusations. I am keeping my communication to a minimum and just responding when I have to. I try not speak with her in person or by phone and mostly use e-mail. The attorney's (mine and hers) have a very good idea of what they are dealing with.

I find she only mimics empathy and does not have the capacity to show the real thing.


The Gypsy lied

Me: BS 50
Her: WW 51
2 DD 2 DS
Married 23 Years
DD May 2009
Filed for Divorce Feb 2010
Divorce Final July 2012


Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: So Cal
SkeerdButHopeful
♀ Member
Member # 27541
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am fairly new to "I Can Relate" and am 99% sure that my FWH has NPD. I'm having trouble following this forum, but REALLY want to read up on this problem. Can someone please explain to me where to start?

Also, can someone tell me this: Can this disorder be cured????


Me BS45. XWH44 NPD. M 8 yrs. DD8. Dday 1/26/10. DIVORCED 5/16/11. Harassment charges twice. Judge ordered NCO for 1 yr, as well as parenting & anger mgmt classes. NCO has since expired, so harassment continues disguised as concern for DD.

Posts: 781 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: USA
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SkeerdButHopeful,
The "I Can Relate" forum has many different topics of discussion, NPD being only one.

Unfortunately, the first few series of discussion have been archieved, but if you go to the bottom of the page at the beginning of the "I Can Relate" page you will see the numbers 1-2-3. On page 3, you will find series 4, 5, and 6 of NPD. Each series only holds so many post and then it is closed and they start another one. (I don't know why.)

Can this disorder be cured????

NPD is different for everyone. Some can have narcissistic traits which is something that would be much more easily overcome than someone with a fullblown Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And even then, there are differences.

Although most professionals agree that there is not much hope for improvement. The reason for this is because the first to being "cured" is admitting that the NPD has a problem. Most NPD's have a pretty high opinion of themselves and believe the problem lies with everyone else.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:03 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To ask if there is a cure for one who has so profoundly ... hurt, damaged, attacked you -

Yeah. There's a cure:
Getting away.

It's the only one I know, and I've spent a soul's tuppence finding it.

Cure you, first.


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Really?!?
♀ Member
Member # 28268
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I posted this in JFO but am very curious about what you guys think so I hope I don't get in trouble for double posting. Last session our MC said WH's prognosis for the diagnosis was good because H can admit that he has a problem. But then today...

Our counselor called and cancelled our appt tonight for personal reasons. H has a IC session next week and the counselor asked if I could come to that. I told him that I would have to find a sitter and told him that I had been unsure whether to even go tonight.
As a result, he and I ended up talking for a few minutes. The counselor said that WH is "very emotionally arrested" and "may not be marriage material as a result". Also that he is unable to form any "empathetic connection" to others.

The counselor said that he understood my feelings, but that I was emotionally healthy and WH is not which is why we spend all of our time talking about him. Our issues are really his issues.

So, what do I do now? I am totally lost. I have 3 kids and no job, but I'm only 29. Do I really want to spend the rest of my life with someone like that?? And one who cheated on me on top of all of the rest?

And on top of everything else, an incident last night has made me concerned that WH has abused our dog. Which of course not only breaks my heart, but makes me concerned for the kids and I.

So, help. What do I do now?


Me: BS-30
WH/NPD-31 EA & PA lasting 2 months
Married 5 yrs
3 Kids: 13 (from a prev relationship), 3 and 1
D-Day: March 23, 2010
"My mistake. I didn't know to be in love you had to fight to have the upper hand." -Taylor Swift

Posts: 129 | Registered: Apr 2010
Really?!?
♀ Member
Member # 28268
Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

double post. sorry!

[This message edited by Really?!? at 7:07 PM, May 5th (Wednesday)]


Me: BS-30
WH/NPD-31 EA & PA lasting 2 months
Married 5 yrs
3 Kids: 13 (from a prev relationship), 3 and 1
D-Day: March 23, 2010
"My mistake. I didn't know to be in love you had to fight to have the upper hand." -Taylor Swift

Posts: 129 | Registered: Apr 2010
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 8:11 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can someone please explain to me where to start?

Just jump right in, skeerd. There used to be an old NPD Thread where a couple of members had posted lots of great stuff, but it's all been archived. There are a couple of older NPD Threads that you can skim over for information (links, checklists, etc).

To answer your question:

Can NPD be cured?

The general consensus would be, no, it cannot. I think if the Narcissist is willing to do extensive therapy and self-evaluation, the disorder can maybe be managed. The biggest obstacle is that the vast majority of the NPDs are completely unwilling to consider that something is "wrong" with them or that they need counseling!


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7633 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 8:23 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Really--

The counselor said that WH is "very emotionally arrested" and "may not be marriage material as a result". Also that he is unable to form any "empathetic connection" to others
.

The very core of NPD right there.

Our issues are really his issues.

Without a doubt.

Do I really want to spend the rest of my life with someone like that?? And one who cheated on me on top of all of the rest?

When you can answer those questions, you will know what to do next. A couple more IC sessions might help you figure out what to do.

...has made me concerned that WH has abused our dog. Which of course not only breaks my heart, but makes me concerned for the kids and I.

Oh, yes, the N's tend to be an abusive lot. I'm glad you are seeing the potential for escalating abuse/violence.

Trust your gut and your mama bear instincts.


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7633 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
SoCalDad
♂ New Member
Member # 28234
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WW has refused to go to any IC. She said she talked to a "couple of counselors" in the past and they advised her to leave me. We have had my insurance for most of our marriage I have not received any EOB's for her for counseling. In looking through old records I did discover some paper work from 14 years ago where she sought help through her employer assistance program. We lived in different states at the time as she had found a job near my family and I was trying to find one there but could not give up my job because of money issues.

In MC she refused to accept any responsibility for problems in our marriage and spent most of the sessions tearing into me as the source of all our problems. That finally convinced me that there was no hope in saving the marriage.

If I could get a dollar for every time she called other people crazy. I could retire tomorrow. Her parents were crazy, her clients were crazy, her sister was crazy, opposing attorneys were crazy, the people she was suing were crazy and now I'm crazy. Hmmmmm everyone is crazy but her.

We had a conversation where I told her I knew that OM had contacted her and she had promised to let me see any communications and she had broken her promise. She told me I was crazy. When I laughed at her and told her that we both knew she was lying she said that's what crazy people do, laugh like that. She later had to admit that I was right.

Since she has never been willing to admit to having any problems there was no option left for me but to file for divorce. I have admitted to being at fault for problems in our marriage. But looking back at it I think most of the problem has been my being co-dependent and not confronting her on her outlandish behavior and letting her do most of whatever she wanted. The few times I did hold my ground resulted in her carrying a chip on her shoulder for forcing her to do something she didn't want to do.

So unless they are willing to accept that they have a problem the only thing to do is submit to their whims or get the hell out. Submission carries one hell of a price tag. 12 years ago my WW's mother told me she couldn't figure out why I had stayed with my wife for so long and that it was ok with her if I divorced my wife. I should have listened to her. It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper, both money wise and health wise.


The Gypsy lied

Me: BS 50
Her: WW 51
2 DD 2 DS
Married 23 Years
DD May 2009
Filed for Divorce Feb 2010
Divorce Final July 2012


Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: So Cal
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sadtoo: Thank you for your answer. My goodness, you are right!! WH would always be "off" and tell me "you feel this way or that way" and I would say no, that's not it, he couldn't seem to get it. It drove me crazy, especially that he always seemed to interpret my "feelings" in such a negative way!!

Woundedby2: when you said that your WH became the "the strong one" and the reactions were odd, it struck a chord with me. My mother and I were discussing my father, who we thought may have had NPD or many traits, he acted "odd" when there was a crisis. He would get this weird SMILE on his face and calmly take care of the crisis.

Use hurtful sarcasm CONSTANTLY and when people were hurt or upset by it and he would get a reaction he couldn't relate to on an emotional level, he would say, "I'm kidding", or become defensive and say, "What? you can't take a joke?"

OH MY GOD!!!!

Did you meet my WH!!!!!!

Oh thank you!! thank YOU!!!

He would do this all the time, and most people would just smile politely at him. It would hurt me, so he did stop his "jokes" but then told me I made him lose his sense of humor!!

I always tried to tell him that it wasn't funny, but hurtful, and he always said, I was just kidding!! Lately, I've been "zinging" him back, and he laughs, but I can tell he really doesn't like it.

But thank you!! As I said in my other post, that just reading a list of "symptoms" is not the same as reading actual "examples" of the behavior!!

I feel so validated and less crazy. Because whether or not WH has full blown NPD, he has SO MANY of the traits!!

Like SoCalDad said about his WW, my WH says it's ALL my fault, including his A. Although I've said to him many times that I would take half of the marital problems, I did not force him to have the A, he didn't ask my opinion, I didn't tell him to do it. You can see in his face that there is some recognition of the logic, but he still cannot "Own it".

As to R, if I change it might work!!!!

Thank you again!


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
Cogal
♀ Member
Member # 28314
Default  Posted: 11:28 PM, May 5th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ahhh, the life with a npd. Can it please end soon, pulease!!! He still won't move out until temporary orders are singed. Says leaving is the final nail in the coffin, funny I remember him saying the same thing when explaing how A was my fault.

He seems to have moved on from trying to convince me (meaning manipulate by withholding money and guilt trips about the kids) to hating me for ruining his life and wanting to stick it to me. Nice and refreshing to get back to the time before I served him and I was the "wrong" one, he tried so hard to be sorry for 2 whole weeks, lmao.
He is now saying I have to pay for half of all the shit he needs for his new place "or else". The man hasn't payed a bill here in months!
I also need to do all his financial disclosures because I "handle" everything. Um, no, not gonna do it.

So all in all it's real cozy to still be in the same house


Me (bw): 30 something
exH NPD: 30 something
kids: preschool twins
d-day 4/09 (7 month EA/PA)
married 10 years
divorced and ready for 2011

It's not that I have trust issues, it's that you shouldn't trust some people!


Posts: 279 | Registered: Apr 2010
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, May 6th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So unless they are willing to accept that they have a problem the only thing to do is submit to their whims or get the hell out. Submission carries one hell of a price tag.

Exactly. Once you have been away from the NPD for a while, you will truly begin to see what this "price" was that you paid. For me, the price was my self.

I feel so validated and less crazy.

That is the beauty of this thread. I remember the first night I sat and read about this "NPD thing" that people in the divorce forum suggested my XH sounded like. It was a jaw-dropping experience to read that others were dealing with this same stuff - the stuff that people IRL seem to not be able to relate to. I'm sure they thought I made half of it up! Not here. Here, I read my story over and over again, and people understood, and they could help.

He is now saying I have to pay for half of all the shit he needs for his new place "or else". The man hasn't payed a bill here in months!
I also need to do all his financial disclosures because I "handle" everything. Um, no, not gonna do it.

Ummmm. No. and no.

If the stuff that you have in your home is somehow not good enough for him to take and use in his bachelor pad, then he can just buy it himself.

And all that financial disclosure crap? My NPD wanted me to do it for him too! LMAO.


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7633 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 5:09 PM, May 6th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That is the beauty of this thread. I remember the first night I sat and read about this "NPD thing" that people in the divorce forum suggested my XH sounded like. It was a jaw-dropping experience to read that others were dealing with this same stuff - the stuff that people IRL seem to not be able to relate to. I'm sure they thought I made half of it up! Not here. Here, I read my story over and over again, and people understood, and they could help.

We didn't have this thread here when I first discovered NPD. There were a couple of us here who were dealing with wack-o STBXH's who wouldn't go away and we really leaned on each other. I remember one suggesting NPD and I had never heard of it. It wasn't until seeing my IC that the alarm bells started going off for me. (long story short) My IC and our MC strongly suspected XNPDH was NPD or worse so I went on STELTH with my snooping. I went through all of my STBXNPDH's private OFF LIMITS papers. I found an old diagnosis from when he had gotten into trouble with the PD (yes he was a police officer) and he was ordered to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. (SCARY!!!) I started reading up on the disorder.

I remember reading about the disorder and the hair on the back of my neck just stood up and I sat here at my screen with my jaw on my desk. Everything started to fall into place. Then, feeling completely validated, I went to friends and family IRL and told them, mistakenly thinking they would have their own "aha moment" too. As most of you know, that didn't happen. They thought I was losing my mind as this disorder is so difficult to explain and the NPD is so damn slippery....

Now, however with time, distance and exposure he has shown his ass over and over again.

But this process has not been without it's cost. It has taken me almost 10 years to get rid of him. I have lost friends and the money I have spent on attorneys, security equipment, and other nonsence is unspeakable. However, the psychological cost has by far been the highest cost. It took me almost 3 years to be able to sleep all night without having nightmares. It took another three years of IC to get rid of my rage. My new husband still can't kiss me goodbye in the morning without making sure I'm awake first (otherwise I'll come up swinging) The embarassment I still feel for ever falling for such a shallow idiot will probably never go away.

Oh...I could go on and on.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 5:20 PM, May 6th (Thursday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Really?!?
♀ Member
Member # 28268
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, May 6th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Then, feeling completely validated, I went to friends and family IRL and told them, mistakenly thinking they would have their own "aha moment" too. As most of you know, that didn't happen. They thought I was losing my mind as this disorder is so difficult to explain and the NPD is so damn slippery....

Yes! How do you deal with this? I haven't told my family about the A, but I did send a copy of the Narcissist Inventory to my mom and told her WH got a 27 (!!). She said she didn't think WH was self-centered at all. He puts on such a good show for others that I always end up looking ungrateful.


Me: BS-30
WH/NPD-31 EA & PA lasting 2 months
Married 5 yrs
3 Kids: 13 (from a prev relationship), 3 and 1
D-Day: March 23, 2010
"My mistake. I didn't know to be in love you had to fight to have the upper hand." -Taylor Swift

Posts: 129 | Registered: Apr 2010
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, May 6th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you guys for helping out a newbie on this thread. My IC met my WH once and from the things I've told her, she suggested many times that he was.

From reading here and the answers to my posts, I do believe now that he is.

Everyone in RL wondered why I just didn't kick WH out on DDay, but my GUT told me not to.. I was right. I knew that it would be a hard road, and it's going to be harder. We cannot R, he's not remorseful and will NOT give up OW.

I hate having to tread carefully for HRH (his royal highness) to get what I want. What works a little is when I quietly say to him, "It won't look good to other people/your aunt/your business associates, etc" when he wants to do something stupid or really N.

Thank you.


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