I don't know what I want in terms of R. I know WH's words don't mean shit right now, but his actions seem sincere.
Do I have to become a PI for the rest of my life if I remain with him? Some life.
Member # 21673
Default Posted: 1:51 PM, April 4th (Saturday), 2009
I ended up talking to him last night w/o actually saying that I looked at his phone.
She contacted him out of the blue but he responded and he did not tell me.
So I have no idea what kind of consequences I need to have for such things. He just said that he didn't think he needed to tell me. sigh.
I just don't know what I want sometimes. This is just too hard. And now with no IC for either of us, I just feel so down and hopeless.
[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 3:12 PM, April 5th (Sunday)]
Do I have to become a PI for the rest of my life if I remain with him? Some life.
I'm sorry, I can't recall... has your husband admitted he is SA? Are either of you in IC?
He's not taking this seriously. He cannot have female friends. He absolutely has to have NC with any affair partner!! You do need to figure out your boundaries and consequences. He knows you're not going to do anything and he knows he can basically get away with it.
[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 3:15 PM, April 5th (Sunday)]
We were watching a newsmagazine program on internet fantasy games, in particular one called Second Life. The gamers and spouses talked about how it overtook their lives. As one BS talked about how even though there had never been any physical affair or even meeting, she felt the OW had his soul; the intimacy, etc. At that point, I got up to leave the room, saying, "Okay, that cuts a bit too close to the bone."
SAh followed me to the bedroom and we start talking. And we talked and talked and talked. I saw a light go on in his eyes.
I told him that I had been seriously planning to leave at some point. I said I would not live in a sexless marriage, among other things. I also said that he could not simply stop here after really 'getting it'. He had to take steps; real live steps.
So we shall see. We shall see. But I do feel more hope for him than I have in some time. I have had hope for me for some time now, so that remains the same. No matter how well he does or doesn't do, it's essential I continue on with my reading, journaling, working the 12 steps, counseling sessions, etc. That's imperative. I think we codependents tend to think that when the addict starts coming around, we can let up a little. Not so. It's essential we continue the work we started and at the same rate, intensity level, etc.
If you have ever been to strip club or a prostitute or looked at pics of naked women does that make you a SA?
I'm a recovering alcoholic & I know that not everyone who has ever gotten drunk is an alcoholic.
Keep taking care of YOU, hon.
If you have ever been to strip club or a prostitute or looked at pics of naked women does that make you a SA?
For a SA the brain cannot chemically distinguish between reality and fantasy. (Yes, rationally the person knows that looking at porn and imagining sex with that person is fantasy but chemically his brain cannot tell the difference. Chemically it is the same.) For a SA going to a strip club, looking at porn, going to a prostitute, having sex with his wife, all those things give them the same high as snorting cocaine. The brain cannot tell the difference.
Bottom line. Are YOU okay with your husband viewing porn, going to strip clubs and screwing hookers? Even if he only does it every once in a while?
If the answer is yes, you're okay with it, then problem solved. You're both fine.
If the answer is no, then his behavior is causing major problems in your relationship. If you have asked him to stop and he's not a SA then he should have been able to stop. Period. If you've asked him to stop and he hasn't, and he's HIDING BEHAVIOR from you, he's got a problem. Call it SA, call it what ever you want. It's a problem for YOU.
So, the question is, what are YOU going to do for YOU?
I still don't know if he has done it since he has been with me, except for looking at pics occasionally & masturbating which I am OK with. I don't want to wait until he does to have the proof so I'm trying to determine if he is an SA or not. If he is then unless he gets help he will do it again. If he is not & he does it while with me I will still leave him but he says he wont do it & I only believe him if he is not an SA who isn't in recovery.
I don't want to leave him over a fear of what he might do unless I am pretty sure he will do it. All I know of up until now is a drunken inappropriate evening that I call a ONS even though they say they never had sex.
[This message edited by Iwillrecover at 4:57 PM, April 5th (Sunday)]
All I know of up until now is a drunken inappropriate evening that I call a ONS even though they say they never had sex.
From what you've said, you ARE OK with him:
~masturbating to porn.
~using Craigslist to look at profiles and supposedly only masturbate to them. (although you admit you don't know if he's met anyone)
~emailing people from Craigslist as long is it was not while you were together but you don't know whether it was or not (and again you don't know if he's met anyone)
~recently going to xxxblackbook to look at extremely graphic sexual profile pics, supposedly only to masturbate.(which I looked at BTW and OMG I almost it is at least as bad as AFF... probably MUCH worse. It takes A LOT to shock me these days.)
~going to a site called niteflirt (frankly after the sock of xxxblackbook, I didn't look at the site)
~ and "If he goes there not often and doesn't contact anybody by chat, email, webcam or phone then I guess it's just to masturbate occasionally"
~"has been to prostitutes in his life" (as long as he's currently telling you he's not seeing prostitutes.)
If you're okay with all those things then your relationship is fine and you don't need to be trying to find out what he's doing. Just live your life and stop worrying about it.
Now, if you really are NOT ok with all those things, you need to start making decisions about how you want to live. My opinion, and it is just that, my opinion, is that you are deeply in denial.
You may be right about my denial & I truly appreciate your advice. I found I was wrong about the recent visits to those sites. They were in his history but not recent as I thought. What I need to know is does he still do this stuff, besides looking at pics & masturbating occasionally. I haven't caught him yet but I'm still waiting. I guess I wanna know without waiting till then cos that will be awful once he does something.
If he has changed then I will not hold his past against him.
I agree with 7 that you're in denial...I can recognize it because I've been there. Most of us will tell you that, on some level, we knew things weren't right. We may not have known how wrong they were...but we knew that something just didn't seem right. The fact that you're wondering makes me think that your gut knows more than you're head is prepared to accept at this point.
As 7 wrote, if you're really okay with his past (and you believe that it truly is his past and not his present), then let it go and move on. But -- and I think there's a big but here -- if you're suspicious or feel as if you're trying to convince yourself that things seem okay, but they don't FEEL okay, then that's something you need to pay attention to.
[This message edited by Eternaloptimist at 9:01 PM, April 5th (Sunday)]
Not good, that is not how a marriage is supposed to be.
Another question, that many of us deal with here.
When he is with you sexually, is he really with you? Does he look into your eyes? Is he "in the moment" there with you? Does he pay attention to you and your needs? How is the emotional intimacy?
(((I will recover)))
I really do thank-you for taking the time to be here for me. I don't want to be in denial that's why I keep looking for things. I haven't found anything that I can prove other than what is mentioned above. I never felt anything was wrong & I still don't & I don't feel anything in my gut & I am an intuitive person.
I am searching because of the ONS. Searching constantly.
About the sex with me...that's the part that doesn't match the description of a SA. He makes love to me, looks in my eyes, doesn't need to fantasize about something else to get off. It's really good & we don't need to do anything kinky even though I am open to that & have done that with other partners. It's pretty straight ordinary but very intimate & therefore good...hopefully not tmi.
I guess like I said I'll have to keep watching & waiting to see what happens. I was trying to avoid having to have something upsetting happen. I want a crystal ball to tell me he is or he isn't. He will or he wont...so I can stay or go.
[This message edited by Iwillrecover at 2:04 AM, April 6th (Monday)]
I know you can't tell me to stay or go but do you feel certain he is an SA?
I did so much digging on the computer, I checked the cell phone bills, I asked for hints on where to go to find his profiles, I literally went crazy with searching for answers.
But actually, the most help I got was from this board (specifically this forum here for the truth), and reading reading reading.
I went to every website I could on sexual addiction/porn addiction. I read hours and hours until I had a pretty good handle on what makes an addict.
I still have NO proof that my SA had a physical affair, because he is in denial, he lies to himself, and I will never know for sure unless he goes into recovery.
At first, it was the PA that I was making my decision on. But then, I decided that that part really wasn't important (to me--these are my boundaries, and what I can handle).
For me, we did NOT have a healthy sex life. Even though he told me he found me attractive and beautiful, he never acted on it, with tons of different excuses. But the real big issue for me was and still is the trust.
That is the most important thing to me in a relationship. I have to be able to trust my partner, totally. I have to feel like I truly know him, and that he will be truthful to me when I ask him a question.
My H wouldn't know the truth if it hit him over the head. He denies, he lies, he blameshifts (particularly maddening for me!), he rewrites history, and he gaslights. He bullies and he manipulates.
All these behaviors, I did not see until I started asking him questions about his addiction. For 4 years, I was totally in love with him and thought he held the earth in his palm. He was my hero. There were small things I wasn't happy with, but I was willing to sweep them away, because he was such a good person.
He still is a good person. But he is a good person with an illness he won't deal with, or get help for, and I can't live with it. I am not paranoid (although I felt like I was). That is one reason I posted on here constantly when he and I would have a discussion, I would tell the other members of this forum and sometimes the general boards what he said, and what I said, and get opinions, and more and more, I saw the truth here, and realized that my H was and still is trying to manipulate me into believing his version of the truth. I caught him rewriting our marital history. It took me time to get to the real truth.
I guess what I am trying to say here in another of my super long posts, is give yourself some time. You do NOT have to make an immediate decision that will affect the rest of your life.
It took me months and months to know for sure what I wanted. I am 100% sure of what I want now, and I would not have made a decision one way or another until I got there.
Don't give up your resources, I made that mistake, and mine just hid it further. Just keep gathering the evidence you feel you need, put a keylogger on the computer (or did you--I can't remember how you found out the other info). My IC also told me not to go crazy with all this, she said if he truly has a problem, it will come out again in time. She was correct. It took about another 3 months for me to find more stuff.
I had quit looking, but my gut just told me to check something I had not checked before.
You said your big thing was his ONS. How did he handle that? Did he give you the complete truth, answer all your questions, and get to the root of why he felt he had a right to go outside the marriage? Did he get counseling? Is that problem completely fixed and healed?
I am new to this too. Not new to infidelity and betrayal, but the possibility that my FWH is a SA.
I also chose to ignore my gut time and time again and be manipulated into accepting that things were ok, or not that bad, because I love him to death and do believe he's a good person.
As far as I know mine has never had a physical encounter. He joined married dating websites to look at profiles. He had a very inappropriate relationship behind my back with a MOW, hid it and lied about it. After all that I told him NO PORN. It would be 4-5 months before I'd catch him looking at it again. Nothing perverted or anything, just he did what he promised me he wouldn't, and then would lie and hide it from me. The only reason I know is because of the keylogger on the computer.
Has he promised to change his behavior in the past and then not kept that promise? Has his porn, etc escalated (started looking at pictures, then videos, then strip clubs, then craigslist). Does it seem to be getting worse?
You KNOW something is wrong or you wouldn't be posting here. Is he willing to go to counseling with you? If he truly does NOT have a problem, a counselor can answer that for you and you will no longer have to wonder. If he does, you will be able to find out how bad it is and decide whether or not you can live with it.
Keep reading and posting!
NA - yeah, yeah, yeah on college! That is such a big step for you! I think one of the things we all have to learn to do is take care of ourselves and prepare ourselves to be alone; to not NEED to depend on our husbands. It gives us freedom and therefore choice.
Foray - on the children thing, I am so very sorry. Our 22 year-old daughter told me after my rSH told her about his affair, how sorry she was because she thought the entire mess was my fault until then. I was shocked! Then our 22 year-old son was not only angry at his dad, he was angry at me for 'allowing' it! Even semi-adult children cannot understand the complexities of this ordeal we find ourselves trying to navigate. I have no advice other than to try to work with a good counselor for your children...and to love them.
Hope4Tomorrow - I am so very sorry. NC is NC. Period. And the fact that he kept this contact secret is, to me, the biggest problem. I think we all need 7's 2x4 to hit our spouses with - like often!
H2H - We have also had a bit of a problem with maturity, but not to the extent you seem to be dealing with. rSH just likes to escape the reality of life.
Omisery - so sorry you are here! Read through some of the previous posts - you will find much information and much support on this thread.
1F1B - Yeah. Progress is progress.
7 - thank you so much for your post about boundaries! I have saved it in a word document for future reference as well.It helps so much to have a point of reference!
Will post update on us in next note...
[This message edited by OurLifeBack at 9:14 AM, April 6th (Monday)]
rSH went to the CSAT for the first time on Thursday and came home literally blown away and overwhelmed. She diagnosed him with 'eroticized rage' primarily at his father. By acing out, rSH is literally saying to his dad 'FU.'
So...she gave him the Patrick Carnes 'kit' and rSH is on his way to doing the 40 day thing and all the other stuff that goes along with it.
He is in the process of getting an SA sponsor.
We are also embarking on abstinence. For 90 days. This is going to be real interesting for us as our relationship (no surprise here ) has always been sexual.
We both met with her for couples counseling on Friday. I really like her as well. I start IC with one of her co-workers next Thursday.
Question: How does one go about getting a sponsor at S-Anon? I go there again on Wednesday and would like to start this process.
We are moving forward! It feels good, but is painful at the same time - and I know ALL of you understand that!
I assume you have let your husband know previously that if any OWs contacts him, he has to tell you immediatley and you will decide what to do together as a couple.
There are two ways of looking at it. One is that your husband is not in recovery at all. He is still thriving in secrecy and denial. In that case, the consequences are more grave. Another is that he is in recovery, but has fallen back on old habits (a "small" relapse" if you will). Since he did not initate the contact, and assuming he responded to OW by asking her to stop contacting him, he might think "what you don't know won't hurt you". If that's the case, you need to let him know the only way to rebuild trust after such monumental betrayal is through honesty, and the importance for him to stop hiding behind secrecy. Make him understand that if he had told you himself, far from getting upset, you would have appreciated his honesty and it would have given you hope about his recovery and your marriage.
As to what to do now, it depends on how your husband is responding to the incident and how he actually respondeded to OW. At a minimum, a NC communication should be sent to this OW (again, if this has been done before).
[This message edited by birdwatch at 11:15 AM, April 6th (Monday)]
I agree with 7yrsbetrayed. Whether your husband is a SA or not is irrelevant at this point. His behvaviours are unacceptable to you and that alone should be enough for him to change.
From my experience, the "digging up" and "investigating" prior to D Day is the most heart-wrenching experience, even worse than the eventual confrontation. You feel utterly alone. Your heart beat rises every time you try to guess at a password and press enter. You are hyper alert to cover your own tracks of "snooping". You feel surreal when you find a piece of evidence. You are in the midst of it. It is unavoidable, unfortunately, but do recognize the emotional and physical toll it has on you.
Your instinct is often right. If your husband has acted out, just because you turn a blind eye, it's not going to go away. If anything, the activities will escalate. It's better to know now, then spend another 10 years of your life not knowing. Once you confront the reality, you can then make decisions that are best for you.
Everyone works at a different pace. Do not feel pressured to become Sherlock Holmes immediately, but do not be willfully blind either. Post often. We are all here to listen.
PS By the way, only a CSAT can make a proper diagnosis of SA. Dr. Stefanie Carnes defined SA as "an unhealthy relationship to any sexual experience (thoughts, fantasies, actaivities, etc) that an individual continues to engage in despite adverse consequences....". The specific activity is not as important as the fact that the person is unable to cease the activity despite negative consequences. Also, there are always variations among addicts. For example, a person who drinks excessively every day to the point of losing his/her job, is as much an alcoholic as a person who "binge drinks" only once a week and becomes violent when he/she does.
[This message edited by birdwatch at 11:17 AM, April 6th (Monday)]