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User Topic: Long Term Affair Thread XV
BorrowTrouble
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Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He is easily bored, restless, needs constant stimulation (not always sexual either) and is very impatient. He is extremely critical when he gets moody (oh yeah, he's moody too), and very defensive if I suggest something believing I am being critical.
.

Yikes!

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 11:25 AM, June 15th (Monday)]


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF, to address your dream.
“1 Dismemberment of the body, or indeed any dream where some type of fragmentation takes place, is largely to do with being rendered powerless. A situation may be tearing us apart and violent action may be necessary before we can recover our equilibrium.
2 Psychologically, we need to take our old feelings and ideas apart to make some sense of what is going on. This process has to take place before a rebuilding of one’s life can occur.
3 The death and rebirth symbolism of initiation; the death of the self before reintegration and rebirth.

Now, you have actually cut the hands off, and this indicates:
1 Our ability to deny others their right to self expression.
2 We have cut short an experience in some way. We are suffering from a loss of power or ability.
3 Spiritually, we may be disfiguring the perfect.
(ok, so prob not #3, but maybe 1&2?)

So, hands are a symbol of power. You put them in the trash, this indicates that you feel someone has power over you. “Often we are being alerted to what we need to do in order to remain healthy ….. we may need to dispose of spiritual clutter and a dream can alert us that now is the time to do that.”

The fact that you fear being sent to jail indicates that you may feel “outside circumstances are making life difficult, but in fact we are creating those circumstances ourselves. This can be on an emotional, physical or spiritual level.” Leading to: “Duty and guilt are opposite sides of the same coin in a spiritual sense. Duty can be a liability and therefore a trap and guilt can prevent us from seeing a way forward. Often, when we feel trapped either by duty or guilt, we will dream of a prison.”

“A brown paper bag can highlight the utilitarian side of the dreamer’s nature.” I think this is you simply being practical by nature.

The presence of water can symbolise all sorts of things. Generally it is taken to symbolise all that is emotional and feminine. It also represents cleansing and spiritual rebirth. Shallow water (as in a stream) represents a lack of essential energy, “a river or stream always represents the dreamer’s life and the way it is being lived. It will depend on the dreamer’s attitude as to whether he or she sees life as a large river or a small stream.”

Try putting these thoughts together and see what you come up with.
I would suggest you are feeling powerless, the hands represent that. You are giving a cover of duty and you feel guilty about this but are still feeling the threat of being trapped by your own choices. I think the water does indicate cleansing as well as an attempt to regain (rebirth) strength and power over yourself.

But I could be way off!

[This message edited by UKgirl at 11:36 AM, June 15th (Monday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF,

It is getting more and more constant. I know there is something very dangerous left unresolved here.
I am going to have a talk with him tonight. Please wish me luck and send us some positive vibes. I really feel my H is slipping again.


Maybe not such a big leap to think that it is whatever's going on with your H is leaving you feeling powerless???


(((hugs)))) for you and the tribe.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF, I’ve just read your next post.

I think you have your answer to your dream. It sounds like you have constantly batted back his put downs about women and general, and I think it’s reeaallly getting to you. Insecure men often place the blame at the feet of women – their mothers, wives, girlfriends, daughters, friends, thereby creating this gender rift that can get quite nasty.

Tread carefully. And millions of good vibes for you to reveal his issues without the spear being turned against you.
(((((FNF)))))

for me i need to know all of it or i refuse to move forward in my marriage....there is a very real possibitlity that you will never know all the answers to your questions..

I have had that “this is your last chance” session with him. And it was still about what he was prepared to give me. And it was before the “1999” revelation that he still has not come up with a satisfactory answer to. Other than the woman in the writing was a muse in his head – a concoction of all the women he has known. Don’t believe it. When he had taken me through it before and written notes in the margin, he said it was MOW. Who he didn’t hook up with until 2001. Aaaarrgghhh!

And the rest. >>>>>sigh<<<<<

So, do I sit him down and say we do not leave this room until all my issues have been dealt with? Do I drag him off to MC and do it? And if I do, do we go back to the woman we saw for 18mths or someone new? And then I think I am just so damned tired of it all.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do I sit him down and say we do not leave this room until all my issues have been dealt with? Do I drag him off to MC and do it?

would you be satified with his answer?

would the counsler be able to get through to him and to you?

what are you willing to live with?

and then the hard part, what will you do about it?

ukgirl.....take your life back, you could still stay in the marriage if that is what you choose, but to keep asking the same questions, when is it enough? when do you say when?

i know i am only 6 months out, but i've already had enough...i do not like living this way>...its not fair to me or my kids.....i am done asking what he will not give, i am done expecting what cannot give, i am done...period...just done.....

i will now make my own choices for me.....and i choose to be done with my marriage.....even though he made this choice first by having his affairs, by continuing with his lies, conitinuing with all the things he was supposed to give up, he's committed deal-breakers and still does, now its done....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He is easily bored, restless, needs constant stimulation (not always sexual either) and is very impatient. He is extremely critical when he gets moody (oh yeah, he's moody too), and very defensive if I suggest something believing I am being critical.

FNF- As BT said "Yikes".

Okay, first, do you still have access to a MC because in my humble opinion it sounds like you might need one! No seriously, I think it is very common for married couples to go through something similar to this when one retires and inserts themselves into the others life. I know my dad drove my mom nuts wanting to go EVERYWHERE with her. She was used to her own space and rhythm and he completely threw it off.

Secondly, your husband sounds like he might need a small nudge on the inter-personal skill front.

I think his issues about women probably go back to FOO issues that he has not worked out at all. I remember a year or so ago you posting about him making extremely inappropriate comments to your son (?) while they were together. I think IC/MC is your best bet. I know that EO is dredging up all kinds of crap but it is very "freeing" for him. He says he feels free for the first time is his whole life.

As far as the dream, if what everyone says about the power thing is the correct analysis, I would think this HAS to be related to the issues you are having with your H. Your power over yourself is being restricted by his behavior with you. From your post, you obviously are having a hard time dealing with it all and it sounds like you feel powerless to fix it. Do you think that is it?

UKG - truthsetmefree has a post going in either general or recon right now following this subject exactly. Basically asking if R can be successful with the full truth. My answer for myself would be "no". Any untruth, even if it is lies by ommission, leads to a "wall" between two people making complete R impossible. Your H has done an incredible job of avoiding this subject but from his reaction to reading here, I think he KNOWS he is hurting you by doing this but he also is completely frozen with fear that if he finally lets it all out he will lose you.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
forgivenotforget
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Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks everyone for helping me with this dream. Great job UKG - now I know where to go if I have another nasty dream.
Seriously though, I think you are all onto something. I have been getting very discouraged and I guess feel powerless because I don't want to start anything up. We had been doing pretty well and I was hoping this was just a little setback but it's been going on for a few weeks now and I'm afraid if I don't address this, it's only going to get worse. My H is the ultimate conflict avoider and I will get lots of resistance which I'm not looking forward to but I have no choice IMO.
. . . but are still feeling the threat of being trapped by your own choices

UKG - this is EXACTLY how I've been feeling. I want my M to work on one hand but feel so trapped because I've lost that freedom I had grown so accustomed to and miss more than I can say. Just like last week when the baby was born, I am not kidding, in the old days I would have caught a flight the next day. It was killing me that I wasn't doing that - "Duty can be a liability" - I feel I have to give up that "pick up and leave" response I had during those years and try to put more effort into my M.
And HS, what you said about your mother having her own space and rhythm, well that was me to a tee and I can't get used to all this togetherness. It's like the old saying, "Be careful what you wish for."

And if I do, do we go back to the woman we saw for 18mths or someone new? And then I think I am just so damned tired of it all.

UKG - Do you feel she was helping you or did you stop because she was no longer effective? If it's the latter, definitely find someone new. Otherwise, she has all your history and you won't have to start fresh with someone new. Any thoughts?
Also, I have to agree with you in the, "I'm just so tired of it all" statement. I'm losing my energy and just want to get back to enjoying life without all the negativity.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Lost Heart2
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Member # 21793
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Two more and I was wrecked. H left us to finish our drinks and went home. And I sent the texts

He left? Knowing that you were wrecked?
What a jerk! No wonder you sent that text...and then he didnt even bother responding.
THAT would have upset me a great deal.

Ukg, you know what leapt out to me re you in that article I posted? That you have always presented with such a together capable face irrespective of what was going on. You have put on your mask for most of these past 3 years and that has seldom slipped.
Maybe you have become tired of putting on that mask and want to be real again? Maybe you are tired of keeping your walls up and want to be safe again? Maybe you want H to lay it all out so that you can put the pieces back together and move on as a couple - but the fact that he is just not playing ball makes you feel boxed into a corner?

I think Shirley hit onto something there when she said that he may be frozen with fear. Please forgive me if I am confusing you with somebody else, but did you not tell him after the last tell all weekend, that f anything new came up after, that that would mark the end of the M? Not saying that was wrong, but maybe he is just too scared of losing you.

***
Fnf
Your H sounds like ALOT of hard work. Yikes indeed!

Wishing you good sweet dreams for tonight, my friend.

***
Tonight in IC we spoke about how different H and I are. It started of with me commenting how, by the statements he makes, I know that he would like me to dress differently (sexy) and how he seems somewhat disappointed that I dont have men coming onto me or behaving inapppropriately.
Ok, if you seen me you would know why.
But I would like to think that even if I was sexy and attractive that I would behave the same way. I am just jnot like that .but dont want to be either. Both the OW were like that.
IC asked me if I thought we would M'd each other if we had to do it over again (infidelity aside) and I replied no. And I know he has said the same too. Like Fnf sitch, H and I have little in common, have different temperments and are just not a good fit. We get along well on a superficial level but thats it.
I dont know where I am going with this.

He hurt me last week. i found his organiser in his bag- the one he should have gotten rid of 3 years ago; the one I found a few months ago with a piece of paer with her tel number pushed into a compartment (obviously written when they first got togetehr and then kept safe there - he forgot). He said that he had taken the organiser out to start using again - having forgotten that it should have been trashed.
Isnt it amazing how something so stupid like this can make me so sad?

Its our 14th wedding anniversary on Wednesday (technically its our 2.5 as thats the length of time he has been faithful). How bizarre.


LTA BS

Dday#1 02.06.06
Dday#2 28.11.06


Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.


Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: London, UK
Lost Heart2
♀ Member
Member # 21793
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fnf,
Has your H, in IC or MC, ever explored his negative feelings towards women?
This must be quite unsettling for you.

I know my H doesnt view womenfolk very highly. He was brought up to believe that women were there to meet his needs, and I , in the guise of being the good wife, reinforced that thinking. I know he doesnt like "powerful" women and finds them somewhat threatening. Which is why the stronger i get, the greater chance I have of losing him...a price I am now willing to pay.


LTA BS

Dday#1 02.06.06
Dday#2 28.11.06


Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.


Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: London, UK
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and how he seems somewhat disappointed that I dont have men coming onto me

LH - maybe you should remind him of that man at work not so long ago who did come onto you pretty aggressively too if I remember correctly. And, I also remember that he wasn't too happy about that at the time. Hmmmmm. Maybe he was trying to goad you into admitting that this guy is still making moves on you. Any chance of that???
Like Fnf sitch, H and I have little in common, have different temperments and are just not a good fit.

Don't you wonder sometimes just how different married life would be with someone who loved the same things you did? I often do. I wonder how it is we've made it this far, really, even before the A.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 2:54 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has your H, in IC or MC, ever explored his negative feelings towards women?

Very superficially. He admits he had deep resentments toward his mother but he has never been able to explain why they are so strong other than to say she was very critical. She didn't beat him, abuse him, neglect him but she was very critical (I experienced that myself) and she did expect him to lie and steal when it suited her. She also had a bad mouth and frequently cursed and he was so embarrassed as a child. One of her favorite expressions was, "they should cut off his balls" whenever she got angry with any male family or otherwise. I'll never forget the first time she said that in front of me. I was so shocked. My mother rarely said damn.
Hell, since the LTA though, I think I'd embarrass her.
Which is why the stronger i get, the greater chance I have of losing him...a price I am now willing to pay.

Wow, LH. You are getting stronger every day. No wonder you H seems to be thrown off base. I wonder if his organizer use is an attempt to throw you off base, passive aggressive or otherwise. Hmmmmmm!


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
brooke4
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Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


FNF,

I think you're really dealing with two different topics: your H's high maintenance level and his unfortunate attitude towards women. If there's a connection it might be that both sound like they stem from an inability/unwillingness to be at home in himself. He has to have constant activity to keep himself from being alone in his own head, and he has to find an external emotional punching bag for every situation. I suspect the violent suicide *terrified* him in some way and it helped keep that terror at bay to find someone to blame.

When you first started describing him and his energy level ADHD was my first thought. Has he ever seen a psychiatrist? Someone I know well was diagnosed with it as an adult and proper meds have saved both his career and his marriage.

As to the second, I think you have to draw your own line in the sand and stand up what you're willing to accept from him on this front. I know you said he's a conflict avoider but that doesn't mean you have to allow it. What you're describing actually sounds a bit to me like he provokes conflict but then avoids having to own up to it and resolve it. My H used to be a master at that and I've seen his mother do it a lot so he obviously learned it in childhood. I think it's a very passive-aggressive way to behave.

((hugs))


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
BorrowTrouble
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Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, June 15th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF,

I second Brooke on the P/A angle. Have you ever read anything about that? A controlling, critical parent is often the cause. If that parent happens to be the mother, then that leads most P/A men to very negative attitude towards women. And I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the possibility of him having ADD. My H does, and so do his siblings.

UKg, I just cannot get a handle on your H. For just about everyone else who has been here a while, I have a pretty good idea of how their husbands are -- or at least how the wife sees him. But your H, I just can't get a handle on. Is his mask that effective?

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
brooke4
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Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 3:02 AM, June 16th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Good morning.

I agree with BT about your H UKgirl, it is hard to get a read on him.

Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of it is sort of an intellectual game to him. I remember thinking from some of your earlier posts that you (and he) have both put him on some kind of intellectual pedestal. And that from day one you have felt intellectually inferior (which I seriously doubt is the case).

It's almost like he's approaching the whole thing from a doomed romantic poet perspective - sort of a Byronic tragedy. And I wonder if that gives him a way of distancing himself from the real emotion, the pain that he's caused (and maybe in himself).

It's almost like she was a vehicle for him to indulge this side of himself rather than anything real. You on the other hand, couldn't help but being reality. And it kills me sometimes to see you beat yourself up for not being able to be that fantasy for him.

I know he's been successful in the business world but *is* he a frustrated academic or poet?


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
brooke4
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Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 3:07 AM, June 16th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


And another topic: forgiveness.

Am I alone in thinking that it's possible to reconcile without forgiving? I know it's counter to the usual way of thinking on this, but I find what my H did completely unforgivable.

I love him deeply and am pretty able to focus on all the work he's done and where we are now as well as where we can go in the future, but I'm not able to forgive the past. I can see rational *reasons* for the way he was, but that doesn't make it ok.

When I reach for forgiveness it just feels like one more burden, something I'm *supposed* to do. I know he'll never forgive himself and sometimes wish I could give him that, but I just can't.

Any advice?


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, June 16th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brook4...

forgiveness is about you not him......

it doesn't mean that what he did was right,
it does not mean that what he did is FORGOTTEN,
it does not mean that what he did was o.k.,
it does not mean that he is free to do it again,
it does not mean that he gets to go back
it does not mean that its all erased
it does not even mean that the pain you feel is non-existant
it does not even mean that you will forget
it does not even mean that you will ever be the same

it does mean simply that you now accept this new reality and will let the anger go

there can be no forgiveness while there is still anger....

you can still hurt, but without malice


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, June 16th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TRIBE,
Lots of great discussions going on here! I leave for vacation TOMORROW and H is leaving the computer HOME. Yay!!

But an issue came up that I want your opinion on. What do you guys do about communications to your FWH's from opposite gender friends that are friends of the marriage i.e. friends to both of you. We have several of these and it would look strange to suddenly cut them off completely and I'm not really wanting to disclose what happened to some of these people. Luckily there aren't many, but we've got two that we've gotten together as couples and that we've known each other for years through school, etc. H is totally transparent and I can see his emails, got his passwords, see his phone, etc. So I am just trying to figure out the boundaries here. These two women were friends with my H before I met him, but are now what I consider good friends to me, too. For some of it we can just sort of blow them off gently, less communication, and I can be the one to respond. For other communications like email it is not so easy. These friends are not in our same town/city or area and the communications are not frequent.

Anyone else have to address this? How did you handle it?

Hugs,
HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
forgivenotforget
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Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 10:08 AM, June 16th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What you're describing actually sounds a bit to me like he provokes conflict but then avoids having to own up to it and resolve it.

Brooke - this is exactly what my H does. It is so frustrating. He'll make a nasty remark and then when I try to respond he cuts me off and refuses to hear me. Then he acts as if I'm nuts or he'll even try to deny that he said something. I swear there are times when I think of running a tape recorder 24/7 just to prove to him has nasty his remarks can be. And there is no question that my H is P/A. I think the whole LTA was exactly that. Whatever failing he believed I had, instead of coming to me to work it out he punished me by having an A right under my nose and then making her a very frequent part of our lives. Sick, really sick.
Interesting comment BT about the critical mother correlation. I'll have to check this out.
Also Brooke, I think what you said about UKG's H is very interesting - the doomed romantic poet perspective - what do you think of this UKG???

HB - I have no experience with this other than my H occasionally talking to one of the women from his office on rare occasions because she is very sick. He makes those calls in my presence because she was best friends with the OW and I don't want there to be any discussion about her whatsoever.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 10:20 AM, June 16th (Tuesday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
lostsuol
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Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, June 16th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HB... If these emails are from friends of the marriage as well as infrequent and you have access to them I don't think I'd do anything about them other than monitor them (in case something changes).

My FWH still receives the odd inappropriate email from women who are 'business colleagues' who I can't truly say aren't friends of our marriage but I am still working on his accountability to the situation. He says he doesn't know how they got the idea that it's ok to send these to him. He says he ignores them which to me is the same as giving them permission. It's an ongoing 'bump' in our road as he doesn't mention them to me but I do have his pw's so I check his email to keep tabs on it.

Anbody else? I'd like to have a solution to this.

HB... enjoy your vacation.

today is our last 'getaway' day but we do have laptops here and he is online for business daily. Haven't figured out a way to avoid this but as long as it's not too intrusive I'm ok as I like to check my email too <GriN>.

Deep conversations here that I need to come back to when I'm home alone. {{{LTA}}}


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
BorrowTrouble
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Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, June 16th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he'll even try to deny that he said something. I swear there are times when I think of running a tape recorder 24/7 just to prove to him has nasty his remarks can be.

OMG, does that put me right back into the very bad old days. Ugh. My H did this for 20-plus years. Drove me almost literally crazy. Even after he started making lots of progress in IC, he would still do it.

It only stopped when he did it in an MC session. And he tried to deny saying what he had said even when both of us heard it! Can you believe that level of delusion? To actually believe you can fake out two people? The MC totally stood her ground, though, and it never happened again. That was the end of it.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
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