oh and about your birds....i absolutely believe....signs are given to us all the time, we need to be aware, recognize and acknowledge them when they come, and the more you do this the more you will get....sometimes its a bit eerie though....clue in the twilight zone music....and sometimes its downright soothingly reassuring....depends on the sign and when it comes and how it comes....
lh2: i am so sorry that you are still out of sorts....its been a while...maybe this trip with the kids will be a lift...you so deserve it.....i will be thinking of you and sending some s.i. mojo your way....i will be away the week after that so i probably will not connect with you for a couple of weeks, if not in between.....but you will be in my thoughts....
and as far as the physical...is it anything youwant to share, you can pm me too if you need....i will be praying for that end too....
ukgirl: i sent you a pm
ejs5: o.k. so the 2 of you are in mc, you only did ic once with the c for the mc...and he is totally gunshy on counsellling and this is the only way he will go for now, and the counseller is going slowly as to m=not scare him away and she is attempting to build trust.....i think i got it now...
o.k. so now why don't you go to ic for yourself to help you deal and process all of this lovely aftermath....i personnally never though i would be the type to need it, but going to my counseler has helped my process tremensously, having a 3rd objective party keeping you on course is really a blessing...and when this 3rd party tells you wonderful things about your progress the uplift becomes a part of the healing.....
and ejs5 you really need to heal....we all do...and anything that can speed up this super long process is something worth doing....provided of course that you have the means for it.....
WH and I have been separated (in the same house) for 6 weeks. I am doing the 180 and have been doing really well. I never initiate contact, I never try to "talk", I've been going out a lot with friends (so much so that he has commented to MIL and me that I'm always out). I read the 180 guidelines every other day to keep them fresh in my mind. Today I actually filled out a credit application and sent it to the mortgage broker to see what type of mortgage I qualify for on my own and if possible am able to buy him out of his half of our home.
Last week or so, we have chatted more than we had been usually on skype and he has been much nicer (more like his old self, no so cold and distant). Last week I ended up telling him about some positive changes that had happpened for me at work including a raise and he responded "outstanding, you deserve it....why didn't you tell me"? I wanted to say duh...it's called separation for a reason??? When I explained that we barely see one another or talk and it would just seem weird to share good news with him, he responded with "come on, it's still me you know!"
He initiates most contact between us and some times it's valid contact other times like today it's a bit of a stretch...he instant messaged me at work this morning to thank me for giving him time yesterday to do some laundry and to let me know about a friend of his Mom's being ill in the hospital. We ended up exchanging and "chatting" a bit more than I would have liked on instant message, he told me about the prospect of a couple of out of the country jobs that might be coming up for him like San Francisco next week (which burns my ass because I've always talked about planning a vacation there, I've always wanted to go) and somewhere in Mexico towards the end of the month. I told him San Fran sounded like a great trip, nice time of year to visit and he should take some days to see the city not just the inside of a hotel room...I was pleasant but tried not to be overly enthusastic just like 180 suggests.
So I'm doing the 180 the best I can, slowly but surely aligning my ducks and getting them in a row and trying to move forward with my life in a way that I don't want to and I never dreamed I would have to but nonetheless am doing the best I can. I cry less and less, I laugh more and more.
Tonight just before midnight I go outside to put out garbage and WH is sitting in his truck in the driveway on his cell phone...immediately I get the pit in the bottom of my stomach that says he's talking to OW...who else would he be talking to at midnight? A few weeks after S, WH told me he and OW were no longer even speaking (big fight) but then again was that the truth and things could have changed...But then again, why do I care? We are separated right? He slept with her and carried on a relationship for 2+ years while we were married, why do I care if he's talking on the phone to her? As I'm heading back into the house, he gets off the phone and jumps out of his truck and says Hi to me and chimes in with "guess who's coming to California with me" I immediately think....oh fuck, he can't be that stupid to tell me OW? His buddy, the one he's been "vacationing" with since we S, the one he golfs with, goes 4x4'ing with, drinks beer with....spends 80% of his free time with now. This buddy was also a bone of contention with me during R and false R because WH in my opinion was spending more quality time with the buddy than me. So over the last 6 months this buddy has been a sore spot with me. So what on earth makes WH think that I would be happy for him going to San Francisco, a place I've always wanted to visit, with his buddy to undoubtedly whoop it up and have a good time....again while I stay home and continue to go to IC, read and post on SI, read my books align my ducks etc.
Basically this morning I told him San Fran sounded great and he should take advantage of being there....well clearly based on the way I feel tonight I didn't mean one word of that. I got pissed at the thought of him being on the phone with OW, pissed that he'll be traveling with his friend and having a good time.
I'm afraid that deep down somewhere that I'm not practicing the 180 for the right reasons! I don't know that I'm doing it for me, I'm wondering if I really am doing it in hopes that he will wake up and see the error of his ways and this will force his ass to defog?
I'm afraid that I'm only doing the 180 in hopes that it is what will help him see me and our relationship in a clearer state. I'm afraid that because our communication had improved over the last week that I saw that as a sign that the old him might be starting to resurface. I'm afraid I'm in denial and not seeing things the way I should be? I'm afraid like just like during A and false R that I'm going to convince myself of things that aren't necessarily real and I'm afraid that I might be setting myself up for more hurt if this isn't a bit of defogging on his part and it's just guilt or something?
I don't want to have any positive thoughts as it relates to WH or our M but somehow they start to creep in.
Any advice or suggestions or 2x4's if you think I need'em?
Me - BS (37)
Him - WS (36)
Together - October 1991
Married - September 2005
DDay#1 - 12/29/08
DDay #2 - 02/21/09
His heart just isn't in it -
RS. I don’t really know what to suggest. You seemed set on the road to S&D and now you find that may not be what you want after all. If you feel this emotional attachment to your H, I can only suggest you talk it out with him. Just as you have written here. After all, what harm could it do? If R is not a possibility, then I’m afraid you will have to tell him that your “friendship” (after all, he did describe you as his “best friend”, didn’t he?) will have to come to an end and that you are continuing with the path you are now on b/c he is still clearly in the fog, delusional and unwilling to face himself. He can carry on trying to find his youth, but you have better things to do with YOUR life. Hugs hon.
Why wear that mask? It is so important to explain your real feelings to your H. Do as UK suggest and talk it out.
It really is about what you want to do... so he must know... Do you know his real feelings too? It is possible the 180 has him thinking you don't want him. What is he suppost to think if you may be showing him you don't want him around? to S....
Here is something I might do... Asked him his feelings... Asked him to be please true and honest... How do feel about a relationship with only me without a third party interference? Then just listen... Just listen... don't judge his feelings, they are not wrong or right... Then tell him all your feelings.. without the mask. Be your true self this time. Don't be afraid to show him who you really are and asked him to do the same. It might be easier to ask him to write the answer.. and asked him to only focus on his feeling and NOT try to fiqure Out what you are feeling...
I believe if you want to R and you beleive you still want your M... then make it happen from your side... We cannot control what others will do but once you know what he wants to do then you can decide and make plans to make yourself happy...
I pray for peace with you...
ejs5... I'm thinking about you... it sounds like you are working at it. good.
Thanks for all the comments about Retrouvaille... It is really good and I still would love to see everyone here go.
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:30 AM, August 11th (Tuesday)]
Long time... no post, but I do read here every now and then. As usual, things move quickly here and I see many new names. Sorry that you find yourself here, but there really is no better place to be. Great group of people full of wonderful thoughts and ideas!!
Miss ya, and hope things are good. Gotta tell ya... you brought tears to my eyes and a warmth to my heart, when you shared a post of mine.
I am thankful that my thoughts would be of help to others!
I'm afraid that deep down somewhere that I'm not practicing the 180 for the right reasons!
Doing the 180... I don't think there is any one right reason, other than to help you cope and survive. It sounds like you are trying to move on and doing the best you can. Your WS is still in your heart and so you are confused. And that is normal. Talk to him if you think you can, but focus on you and what you want. I'm sorry, I know how hard it is.
Miss you too!!! Hope you are doing well. I don't visit much, but I carry all of you's in my heart!
Things here are wonderful. Just living and loving. My H is really a changed man and I am truly a happy "camper"!
Sending you all strength and hope. Don't ever lose hope... it will get you thru the rough times!
I am woman, hear me ROAR!!
What you accept, you teach!
Me 53, WS 54
Reconciled for life!
DD 24, DS 27
i agree with lovin life has posted and then there is that cinderalla dream we all have....you obviously still love him....love doesn't die as quickly as we would like....its really easy when you really love someone to find hope when there is none, its really easy to read into thing they way you really want them to be...this is where your head may have to come into play...why are you separating in the first place, what have his actions showed you.....did the 2 of you really sit down and talk about everything you both want from each other, and did he fulfill his end......
the 180 is there like lovin said to help you cope, its a really powerful tool...it can be utilized for a variety of reasons....
is it possible that when you moved on he felt a release of pressure and was able to communicate with you, is it possible that giving him space is what he needed to move on without you and without guilt, malice etc....
the 180 depending on how the people involved feel towards one another can have different results.....
i suggest you get the book spiritual divorce, there ae some exercises in the book which i think will really help you...then make a list of what you have to gain to continue on this course or changing course.....do u want to salvage your marriage....make a list of the pros and cons.....which diecision will give you no or little regret over the other......you have a lot of soul searching to do....you need to go within and find your answers....
you cannot control anyone but YOU!!!
need to run, will check in again later
Tryn - I totally agree with you and I would love to tell him exactly how I feel but I'm scared to death. I don't know what his "real" feelings are, I only know what he told me a month ago, we haven't spoken about it since so I've been going on the assumption that those are his "real" feelings and he still feels that way otherwise he would have come to me. I guess I never even entertained the thought that he might think that I don't want R, I've always been very vocal about my love for him and my commitment to him and to R and our marriage and that never waivered so I guess I would think it would be impossible for him to feel that he might feel as though I'm done and couldn't come to me about R. One fear that I do have is even if at some point he though he might have some regret that his ego would get in the way of admitting so and coming to be about R? I'm also scared that his feelings haven't changed and he's happy with our S and ending our M...he hasn't given me any reason to believe that he has had a change of heart or is re-thinking this path over the last 6 weeks, only his actions recently made me think/hope that maybe that was the case and like I said, I don't know if I am just wishing and hoping that I am seeing things that aren't there or chalking them up to some sort of a good sign when really they might just be out of guilt on his part or just missing his best friend but not his wife?
I would give anything to have my H and my M back although I do have doubts that it would work and that he could do the work required to R...he never did so I'm skeptical that he could ever do enough or that I could ever trust or that it could be real and honest? But would I love for him to want to R and be willing to try and save our M and for me to be given the opportunity for real R.....absolutely!!! Like I said I'm terrified of putting myself in the postition to be rejected once more. I thought with the 180 it would be a good opportunity for me to detach from him and move forward and if I'm being totally honest was hoping that by doing so, it would make him see me and our M in a different light and not be so willing to toss me and M away.
UK & Tryn - You both suggested that I might want to try and speak to him and like Tryn said...listen to him! I guess I just always thought that if he "saw the light" he'd come to me and that would prove something to me, then the choice would be mine and the ball would be in my court! Like I said, I would give anything for a real opportuntity at R but I guess I thought for that to happen WH would have to realize it on his own and come to me for it to even be a possibility? Here's the other question for both of you and anyone else in the LTA thread....I also posted this in S&D and got only one response but it was basically that I wasn't practicing 180 and I needed to make myself less friendly and less available for the friendliness, they encouraged me not to engage, not to let him draw me and not to believe that I mean more to him than I do and also that the 180 works if it's done correctly. Not sure if they meant works for me or works for WH or both of us?
You both suggested that I might want to try and speak to him and like Tryn said...listen to him!
Is the different perspective and advice between S&D and LTA because of the different nature of the LTA, is it because you are both R'ing?
I had some advice from my boss who's first M ended 26 years ago as a result of an A. He walked away from his WW and never looked back. He says it was pride for him and he was betrayed and got dumped and he was mad. Although he's happily remarried with a great family he says he still wonders "what if", he encourages me to have no regrets and do not let pride dictate anything or get in the way of anything.
In my mind I had the same thoughts that both of you had and also taking into account my boss and his no regrets theory and the whole what have I got to lose and trying to have an honest conversation with WH soon vs the 180 and NC route? In my mind I had a bit of a timeline in my head...I have a birthday coming up in a few weeks and then our anniversary is 6 weeks away. In my head I was thinking I would wait and see how those 2 events played out if WH acknowledged them or how. I just know they are triggers for me and I guess I was thinking if something was going to trigger him and make him think it might be those 2 upcoming events? I was thinking at that point it might be clear to me whether to just proceed with S&D and not look back or to considering approaching him to have a real heart to heart talk after some time and distance had been put between us and the M?
Sorry for the novel guys...just kind of rambling, thinking out loud...I just feel so confused and unsure. I want to make the best decision, the right choice at the right time...I just don't know what that is.
I'm thinking it would just be so much easier if I didn't love him so much or if he loved me more
Miracle: Yep I still love him and what you said about finding hope and seeing things the was you want them to be when you love someone is exactly what I'm afraid of and afraid that is what I'm doing. It really hit home for me, I do keep trying to think with my head unfortunately my heart jumps in and takes over every once in awhile.
We are S because after 6 months of False R, WH never went NC with OW and didn't want to R because he didn't know that his heart was in it and also he felt as though he gave 100% to R and that I was never going to be able to get past it!!!
I do think that it's entirely possible that right now more than anything relief is what he is feeling, not having to deal with me, our marriage, his crap and he's free to spend his time doing as he pleases or as I've refered to before that he's been on vacation these past 6 weeks, not having to be accountable to anyone and yes, without guilt.
I read a good line on here once about loving chocolate cake and living on a diet of chocolate cake...as much as you love it, it doesn't sustain you and eventually you want and need more than chocolate cake
I guess I was just hopeful that if relief was the case that it would be short lived and would be followed by heartache and sadness on his part and a "WTF have I done" kinda revelation. Is 6 weeks of S short lived?
I think I was hoping for everything out of the 180...positive changes for me and a wake up call to WH.
I will stop at the bookstore on my way home...thanks for the suggestion.
I can't thank you guys enough for taking the time to respond to me this morning and try and help me sort through all of this. I'm feeling as lost, confused, desperate and as low today as I have been in the last 6 weeks. I read all the posts, everything you guys have to say, unfortunately you are all so wise! You have all meant a great deal to me over the last few months and you never even knew it but especially this morning so thank you.
S&D have their own axes to grind and if the path is to D, then they are right. You have to pull right back and completely disengage. You deal ONLY with what is necessary to bring your m to an end, nothing more and he can go hang.
I suggest you give him one last chance before completely turning away from him. Arrange a time and neutral place to do this, giving yourselves at least an hour. Tell him you are prepared to work on this b/c you love him in spite of what has happened and that you think you can have a great marriage rather than the mediocre one you were in. You are doing this so that you can say you gave it your best shot and therefore will have no regrets as you will know it was by his choice that the marriage finished. Do not make it all about you, put questions to him and listen without interruption. He is not in the frame of mind to listen to a “poor me” monologue. If you are unsure about what to and what not to say, read the posting by SerJR (the problem with the “Dear WS” letter) to give you some pointers:
None of this is your fault, he made a decision that caused him to leave and that he must realise that this “passion” in any relationship does not last forever. It can’t – the intensity is unsustainable for normal balanced people. Those who do not learn will continue to make the same mistake over and over – and he will. If he carries on with OW, there is a 78% chance (think I have the right figure here) that betrayal will happen in their relationship. And so it will go on. You will learn, move on and be happy. Without therapy or counselling, he will not. But he’s so far in the fog, he’s gonna think you’re cuckoo.
If he’s agreeable to a sensible chat, make some bullet point notes as reminders to keep you on track. Make notes as you go along. Tell him you are doing this to help YOU.
If he is intent on seeking that something that’s missing in his life (it’s not, what’s missing is within himself), that excitement, that thrill, that certain frisson, then you must, absolutely must do the 180 and stick to it. Put post it notes everywhere, esp by the phone. Keep it short, succinct and to the point. Answer questions in as few words as possible. Read on how to stay on the 180.
Meanwhile, here are some other good threads set up by SerJR in JFO.
Setting healthy boundaries: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=231851
How to play the game and win: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=266197
I’m bumping them for you. You may have read them already. If you have – read them again!!!
[This message edited by UKgirl at 11:46 AM, August 11th (Tuesday)]
want leads to choice leads to commitment
should leads to decision leads to sacrifice
so when making decisions or choices is the subject at hand something that deserves your commitment or your sacrifice.....
i read this just this morning in one my books and it really struck a nerve, a new persepctive on looking at decisions and choices....
i think it might help those of use who are faced with these crossroads.....so many of us are.....
the biggest decision we face is whether or not to stay in the marriage....and it really should be a choice
then there are so many more crossroads after that one
do we forgive
do we let go of resentments
do we let go of the hate
do we show compassion
do we exhibit patience
do we listen
the list is endless......and every one of them should be a choice as opposed to a decision...
decisions can be based on what others think we should do,...decisions can be based on what our heads tell us to do.....decisions can be based on books...decisions are not necessarily what we want....choices imply free will with ones trueself......
just wanted to share....
((tribe)) I'm just not very good at the advice thing, but I keep each of you in my prayers.
One year ago today, I discovered 2 text messages that changed my life. I am choosing to make that change positive.
WS-59: LTA (22+ years)
MOW-54: H's old girlfriend
D-day 08/11/08 (3 days before 25th anniversary)
Working hard on R
the book is:
"it life is a game, these are the rules" by cherie carter-scott
its a really cool little book, very simple, easy read.....so far i recommend it...i am up to rule 5 out of 10....and each rule has different componets....quite an interesting take on life....
Popping in briefly to Send you hugs and peaceful wishes on your antiversary today.
((((TRIBE & newbies)))))
For me, If my spouse continues after that with "not sure?" and "cannot", then know you did all you can... and no regrets. Remember, you cannot control what others do... and it is up to only you to make yourself happy... and that will be with a new partner... or if you like, be by yourself. Yes it will be hard at first...
You know how the BS always wants NC... that is how you will get over love... so you might think about asking him to move out and tell him to please respect you, and give you NC so you can fall out of loving him. You start telling him stuff like... This is the end.. and you are going to start finding another partner.. go put you profile on Match.com find a friend to set you up on a Platonic coffee meeting with a man you can just talk too.
My S lasted all of 3 days.. when my wife found out I had a "meeting" with another woman, you should have seen the reaction! When I told her I was meeting with a D attorney... man o man.. she asked me to please try one more time... and I was ready to move on too...
The D will be painful... but that pain will fade in short time... You will find a good man... and 99.99% sure of that... you are so young... take chances, but be selective this next time.
My buddy in MI says the lady's get 8 x's the hits on those dating sites.. He's a great man too... They are out there... His wife just left him, says she didn't love him but I think she had an A too.
Start get'n back in fight'n shape...
Dig deep right now you can do it..
K - happy 25th anniversary
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:02 PM, August 11th (Tuesday)]
i hope you like the book...