question if i may: i noticed in your tag line that you were staying because the children do not know, and that they are all adults....if they are adults, living their own lives, why hide it, why stay in a marriage that does not make you happy? is it really for your kids, are they really fooled into believing that you and he are happy? r they still in college or something? i know i am prying...and if you choose mot to talk about it, i understand completely...
ukgirl: good luck with all those parents...enjoy your time with them...
to the rest of this wonderful tribe: i wish you all peace, peace in your hearts, peace in your spirit and peace in your mind....
Figured I better vent here...because he doesn't know she has a myspace account and I don't want him to know I know these things...although before she was blocked on his facebook I saw posts about her phone being off thats how I know it was twice in the last 3 months. So heres to hoping when it comes back on she won't continue to try to contact him. So far nothing since the beginning of August and he has been open about sharing when I have questions.
Counseling had to be postponed last week hoping for a time next week so I can ask my questions...I have a few...okay more than a few to ask...hoping when I get the info I'm not going to do this
Chicstyler: I just read your profile. (((Chicstyler))) What excuses is your WH using? Is he stuck in the “there was no sex so it was okay” excuse? Can he see at all that he has betrayed you? Has he established NC? Are you using the 180? Is he willing to read any of the books? Sorry that I ask so many Q’s, it just seems like such a difficult situation that you’re in. How is he coping with the fact that he is going to die? Does he have any desire at all to come to terms with his life before it’s over?
“she even had the gall to tell me they had “lived as man and wife for a week”. FOR A WEEK???”
Okay, time for a ramble. I’ve been thinking that maybe the real issue for me underneath all of this is that I just don’t think you can love someone and cheat on them. Not true love anyway, not the real macoy. You may be fond of them, feel a bond with them, you may think what you feel is love but it just isn’t. Once you experience real true love for someone, how can your false self-image be more important to you? I’m into horses so I was thinking about it like this; people get into riding often because of the image it reflects back to them, not because they truly love the animals. They think they love the animal but they don’t. If it isn’t performing right (ie: making them look good), they don’t think that maybe the horse could be having pain somewhere, or may not have enough training to do what they want, they usually just get unhappy with the horse, blame the problem on the animal and try to rectify the situation with a bigger bit, spurs or looking for a new horse who will give them the right image. If they know the animal is in pain, they often make it perform at a horseshow anyway so that they still look good. If they truly loved their horse, wouldn’t they try to find out what it needed, wouldn’t it’s welfare be more important than their image? I know this is pretty far out there but I’m just now trying to put words on something that has been gnawing at me. There are many grades of positive emotions before you get to love. Maybe what WS’s experience for the BS is one of those and not true love or they confuse some other emotion with love. I think my WH thought he loved me but what he really loved was what he thought I would provide him, the image of him in the perfect love relationship or something like that. And when I didn’t perform as he wanted, it was my fault. He tried a bigger bit, spurs, whip (figuratively – trying to convince me the problem was me) and when that didn’t work, started shopping for a new wife.
See my wife has always been Following…. I’ve written this to my wife in the past.
you… received a promise I made to you as god he witnessed
you… have made me spiritual and closer to god
You… stayed with me in toughest of time
you… are the mother of my children
you… have precious a special time I selfishly want to enjoy life with
you… have a mother, a father, brothers and family I dearly love
you… have a beauty and appearance I am so proud of
you… feel so good when wet lips and tongue to touch mine
you… bring me to extreme happiness when your body touches mine
you… take me to a place of euphoria when you climax and I arrive
you… talk to and listen to me when I’m happy, and hurt
you… soothe my pain both physical and mental
you… take care of me when I’m injured and sick
you… give me good council
you… entertain me
you… are very interesting and teach me
you… clean my clothing and my home
you… dress me and cook me food
you… earn money for our retirement, for extra things we experience
you… allow me to seek happiness in my life with so many hobbies
you… are kind to other people
you… and I, enjoy so many of the same things
Did I have the entire question A answered? NO
Did my wife hates what she did? Yes, that is enough for me.
Is she fixed and won’t do this again? Heck, I don’t know. But it just doesn’t matter, because if I find she is starting anther relationship of any kind with another man… I’m going straight to file D…. and moving on with my life.
Some here are still in M and cannot seem to get past the history. I know, understand, can relate to the battle. I think to move on to happiness, you must be able to control your own brain. For me, it started with telling myself, making a decision, only focusing on me, not expecting anything in return… but I’m going to be kind to myself too… if I slip… so what.
OK… So as part of me trying to R, I said to myself, what did I do wrong in my M?
My wife says she had her 2 A’s because she felt like I didn’t pay attention to her. I did not give her quality time. I could not open my heart, my feelings, my emotions to her.
All true... I focused on my job, my kids, my hobbies…etc. Is that an excuse to have an A? NO. But since she has told me what she wants in a man.. I’m listening and going to work hard to give it to her.
See, this is why I bought the book you suggested. Since I was a kid… about 1st grade… I have had fantasies too… over the years they changed. Mine are all pretty standard.. me being with co-workers, friends wife’s, all women… It was something looked at me to see if at any time this was the reason I could not be as intimate, share feelings, emotional with my wife. It was sort of an infinitely in it’s own way. I turned to porn because that visual was more stimulating to my brain. I do conclude that porn and fantasy was ways for me satisfy my sexual desires I needed and wanted with my wife. By doing these things, I was not able to tell her what I wanted, nor motivated to learn what a women wants, needs, must have for a good sexually healthy life.
Today, I’ve opened my feelings to my wife, try to make things fun and romantic, try to listen and not tell her what to do…
Are we still fucked up? Not me but my wife is still messed up… you know what, I can laugh about it.
So last night, we have a great dinner at a great place. It was very romantic. She wore a great black dress I had laid out for her on her bed when she came home from work… and I a jacket… We start with wine and good conversation. After a while we got into a conversation about the best times we had together and what we could change… That was good but lead to discussion about the A. She told me she thinks she want to be on her own… leave me. I said fine, but I don’t want her to. I told her she can find a new place… she said that she was told not to leave the house… I told her that I am not going to leave her and I love her, I want to spend the rest of my life with her. That is my final decision. If you want to leave, that is your decision. But if you do, I will not see you, talk to you, write to you, only through attorneys because I will need to fall out of love with you and find someone that will fill your shoes. We leave, go home, and have some of the best sex we’ve ever had… hugged each other throughout the night… It was fun. Go figure… LOL. But you know what? I am happy this morning for some reason
BTW.. I am ready for more hurt. I know I won’t hurt any more then what I have in the past year and I am ready to move on with someone new if my wife says she want to be alone. Do I have a time line for her? NO. I’m just going to keep on with my decision to for things that make me happy … give her another chance. I will trust her again. I will focus on what I can do to make it loving, fun, happy, and good.
It really is up to her if she wants to continue our M. I know I would be a great catch... I’m just a bit overweight, good looking, make alotta money, have all my hair, unselfish, positive, fun, educated, friendly, compassionate, believe in God, giving toward others, and now I know what a good woman wants in life.
The other night we watched Fireproof... It was funny how I am doing the same as that man... just giving all I can... So if my W doesn't want that... I'm ready to make my own happiness.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:52 AM, September 12th (Saturday)]
Our oldest dd & ds are on their own. Youngest ds & dd (plus dd's ds & dh) still live with us.
I guess I'm an incredible actress! We laugh, have sex, say the ILY's, but it's all empty for me, very hollow.
I let him convince me 16 years ago to become a SAHM, I don't regret it, but it caused me to be totally financially dependent on dh. I honestly have no friends as we live in a very rual community and the closest neighbor is about 2 blocks away.
I hate myself. I became so co-dependent on dh that I lost my idenity and I have no idea where to look.
Tryn, what fortitude! I admire that.
It was something looked at me to see if at any time this was the reason I could not be as intimate, share feelings, emotional with my wife. It was sort of an infinitely in it’s own way. I turned to porn because that visual was more stimulating to my brain. I do conclude that porn and fantasy was ways for me satisfy my sexual desires I needed and wanted with my wife. By doing these things, I was not able to tell her what I wanted, nor motivated to learn what a women wants, needs, must have for a good sexually healthy life.
I know I am at peace and getting better everyday… You can have that too.
I was just reading in Oprah Magazine and article called Power Surge. This stuck with me..
Always feels bad>>> Always feels good
Insists on certainty>> Accepts Uncertainty
Needs everything>>> Needs nothing
It is not easy. I think you first need to start with forgiving. For example, I made a decision to forgive my W right away. I shifted my anger toward OM and blamed him. He is not to blame. My wife is to blame for her actions. I made a decision to forgive the OM back in May. It took to July before I started to be at peace with that decision. I just said "I forgive" everytime I thought about him. I forgave my wife after I bruised her arm. I could then realize how she felt about hurting me.
BTW.. I don’t really think my W wants to leave me. I know she is afraid to leave me… See, she had my children and knows that I am a damn great H. I don’t cheat, not a drunk, hard worker, I am very kind (I lost my mind during anger), never cussed her, always opened door, came to help her at every call, not a flirt… vs. her lover cheated on her, a drunk, cussed her, cheap ass, flirt, so many issues…
I think she got greedy and selfish. As UK says, a cake eater… got caught up in all that lust. She fell victim to a man experienced at making a woman feel good in some emotional ways… It basically wasted her life for years. It would be hard to admit such failings after years of justifying living a duel secret life. How in the world can you feel good about yourself after betraying and being so evil? You cannot. If you can feel good about what you did, then something is seriously wrong with you. You know in your heart you betrayed God, yourself and your family. I feel if someone cannot learn from such a huge mistake, they never will. It is time to make a change. I think some people cannot forgive and those people need to D. It’s just not fair to the other person if you are going to lead them on.
I made a choice to give her a second chance with me because of several reasons. I now forgive her. Yes, I take a chance, a risk. I would also be doing the same with another woman, if I left.
I know choices work. But see, I know it works. I forgive the OM and only wish him the best in life and I hope he can fix his issues of happiness.
It’s funny how my W and I disagree on that… This is from Marriage Encounter and Retrouvaille…. Love is a Decision. Love is a choice.
Love is a Decision. Feelings change and aren't not easily controlled. Love is not only a feeling, it is more than a feeling. Love is a decision. Love is a decision to be open and to share when you don’t feel like it. Love is a decision when you don't think your spouse deserves your love. Love is a decision means that you are open to honest communication with your spouse. That's not only talking, but also listening. It is also a decision to be loved. Making the decision to love includes the everyday, little things that you often do for one another, especially when you’re not feeling loving. From the action of deciding to love, often the feeling of love will follow.
Making the decision to love doesn't mean you love and accept negative or abusive behavior.
Making the decision to love doesn't mean you love and accept negative or abusive behavior.
I am 99% sure I would never have visited a porn site if my wife and I had sex everyday or much more often. I could and really want sex everyday. That is who I am. I know my language of love is physical. It always has been. I have struggled with that for years and found ways to cope. My wife just will not or cannot have sex this frequent. Years and years ago, I just gave up on us. I quit working on doing the things I needed to make her feel like having sex with me. But my ethics, situations, choice to be faithful and all never lead to an A with another woman. Over the years being turned away so much because I wanted sex without the “warmup”, attaining those feeling a woman needs to want to have sex. I totally forgot how to do this out of my own selfish immediate desires. All I can do is control my own actions. Would I like my wife to “come on to me” and “want” me sexually without my initiations? Yes. But I have no control over that. So for me to be happy sexually, I must do the things that excite her.
Not only that, I did ignore my wife. I worked a lot. I spent a lot of time making money. I viewed making money for us, my kids, my own selfishness as most important because I too a piece of paper that said Marriage as a promise you don’t break and allowed my boundaries for happiness to be broken.
Today, my boundaries won’t ever be broken again without consequences.
I think you can be at peace if you think like me… living proof here…
Will I be sad over thinking about this history again? Yes. But you just pick yourself back up and go on back to thinking about what is happening today.
Oh well.. had a great day with my w yesterday and off to a Colt's football here for another good time...
Peace be with you all today and make a choice for happiness!
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:38 AM, September 13th (Sunday)]
“I knew there was something not right … and I tried throughout the years to get him to tell me what was going on. All he ever did was lie, lie, and lie some more. WH knew that he was destroying our M and hurting me, but he said as long as I didn't know about EA it wasn't hurting me.”
This could be right out of my story. I get so angry that some WS’s (particularly LTA’ers) think they are so entitled that they can play with other peoples lives and emotions.
“They even conspired together against me in getting the letters by me, then the phone calls, then possibly the real A, then WH setting up a hotmail account at his work just for her. Since there was a time that X-W lived in our small town, it would have been very easy for them to meet. I may have run into her at some point and never knew.”
(((Chicstyler))) I know how bad this hurts.
“WH said he was sorry, but that’s only because he got caught.”
Yup, I recognize this. I’m still having trouble accepting that my FWS is sorry.
I wish I could help you more but all I can say is that he is still in the fog and the only way to get him out, if you want him to take responsibility for what he’s done, is to keep trying to show how his excuses and lies don’t hold water. I was like the Chinese water torture using consistent logic until he could see. It took a long time but it worked.
Tryn: Thank you once again, I do always get something out of your posts.
My problem is that for 17 years, my FWS lived in a skewed reality and through ingenious manipulation (we thought he was NPD for awhile) got me to accept this Picasso picture. I’m afraid now, that if I accept the current explanation, I will just, yet again, accept a fake reality. Well, it is two steps forward, one step back but still going forward. I am just not ready to let go of the side of the pool yet.
You know, when you described your dinner the other night what I thought was, she doesn’t want to leave him, it’s just hard for her to accept what she’s done and be with him. Maybe she’s just expressing how hard that is. I think it’s good that you kindly remind her that the choice is hers.
I am just not ready to let go of the side of the pool yet.
Going To Make It...
I hate myself. I became so co-dependent on dh that I lost my idenity and I have no idea where to look.
My problem is that for 20 years, my FWS lived in a skewed reality and through ingenious manipulation (we thought he was NPD for awhile) got me to accept this Picasso picture. I’m afraid now, that if I accept the current explanation, I will just, yet again, accept a fake reality.
This just screamed at me, you hit the nail on the head for me. I've been spinning my wheels for so long, I always knew, but could never prove anything until the FB called when her mom died 5.5 years ago. It took him another 3.5 years of trickle truth, only admiting something when presented with direct/no wiggle room evidence.
Do I think I have the whole story? Nope, never will, but that's not what is eating my soul alive, it's that I don't believe he is in the M for love, he came back to me only when she turned him down for sex the last time he was there (02).
Tryn, my whole being was put into loving him and my children. I'm all tapped out
DH is trying to move heaven and earth to get me out of the state he took me to so he could continue to conduct his LTA in CA and to keep me dependent on him (he's admitted as much)by convincing me to be a SAHM (I use to be in IP Law with an international co). We have decided on a place we both would love and isn't anywhere close to the West Coast That is the first thing on my list to improve my attitude
I need and want to work, not in the same field, but something where my current talents are (I can't say to much, I don't want to appear to be soliciting), DH is so on board, he's ready to chuck his career for mine, he's really done a 180 in this respect. Where before it was all about him being "top dog", he only works when the coffers need to be filled.
I've been spinning my wheels for so long, I always knew, but could never prove anything until... I intercepted an e-mail and he lied about it.
My H also now admits that he did what he could to keep me dependent. He also admits he always tried to keep me off balance so that he could be the superior one in our relationship. All very subtle so I couldn't put a finger on him and he could still look like the good guy while I was the unreasonable one. (he is a psychologist, by the way and very clever) He said it was getting harder and harder to keep two steps ahead of me because I was always working on myself and through practice, started seeing through him and honed my verbal and observational skills (trying to get him to see reason). I put all my eggs in one basket, moved to his country, gave up friends, family, career and activities. I am typically a very independent, tough minded career oriented woman, I can't quite understand why I bought all of this. When i look back, I can see how I changed my hair, clothes, everything, just trying to please him
Suddenly, I understand things that I could never figure out before. A veil has been lifted and I find that I have been under a spell. It feels like I accepted some indisputable law (like the law of gravity) and since that couldn’t possibly be questioned, everything that didn’t fit had to be inaccurate. What was that stupid law I accepted? That he loved me? That he was who he presented himself to be? That we were special? That our relationship was unlike any other? I feel like our whole life together has been a lie, not just the 3.5 years of his affair.
Well, to his credit, he has seen through all his crap and owned it. (due to my forcing him screaming and kicking the entire way) He is working hard to become a better person. We are making progress. It's me that's stuck at the moment.
The thing I really miss at the moment are my feelings for him. How I looked forward to being with him, how my heart skipped a beat every time I saw his face. How I felt when he touched me. Do those feelings come back or am I stuck with the "good friends" only feelings now forever?
I don't like the 'new' feelings I have for him, just one of "Friends with Benefits". I'm hoping our move with bring about a new change in me.
why haven't I hit the f-ing anger point yet it has been over 3 months since d-day.
Peace and you are in my prayers.
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:40 AM, September 15th (Tuesday)]
WH kept me from having a true loving relationship with someone who would have actually loved ME
I too feel ROBBED of a truly loving relationship!
I hope the attorney will give you some hope for your future.
Regarding low libido, it is really interesting to read “The Female Brain”. Any stress really shuts off women’s libido. It also says that women need to be in a warm caring environment with their spouse for 24 hours before they want to have sex. So if H says any unkind things, isn’t helpful around the house, it puts the clock back at zero. The book is an eye opener for many reasons, I highly recommend it. It also helped my H understand what he needs to do if he wants to encourage a sex friendly environment at home.
GTMI & Chic: sorry to hear the feelings don’t come back but I pretty much thought as much. Guess I’m stuck in the “Friends with Benefits” sitch.