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User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts 4
RedheadTX
Member
Member # 19079
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, July 25th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've written them to ask it to be reprinted.

Also, my copy of the book is pristine and I would be more than happy to loan it out to have it scanned.


Me-BS-33
Him-WH-35 (ihatedrphil)
11 yr old daughter
Countless PA and EA
Most recent Dday-4/08 (9 mo. affair w/OW who didn't know he was married)

11/08 - Found out he is still talking to the previous OW as well as at least three others.
6


Posts: 296 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Houston
ScribblingMum
♀ Member
Member # 20097
Default  Posted: 12:42 AM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7,

Ah, my boo-boo, that's right, i remember now you sharing that you're not a believer..duh. But perhaps a similar group to volunteer in at first...for experience...?


~ScribblingMum~
D-D 1: 12/23/06 - Porn (dd bust him on-line)
D-D 2: 4-25-08 - Massage P.'s(new act. in pretend recov.)
D-D 3:9-9-08 Caught call m. girl
D-Day 4: 6/30/09 -: free MP g.f./prost.
D-Day 5: 1-10-10: new mp prost's.
~DONE!


Posts: 1529 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: S .CALIF.
HopeFades
♀ New Member
Member # 24934
Default  Posted: 2:42 AM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am a new member. If anyone wants a background, I put it in my profile. 7years was kind and steered me this way when she saw my first post in just found out.

I have been trying to understand how he came to have such a high level of SA and such an incredibly good ability to hide it. He otherwise seems to be a really decent person.

I just learned something today that I guess is just one more piece to put in the puzzle. We have been talking a lot. He is in counseling with a CSAT counselor. He is supposed to take a lie detector test as part of his treatment. I am supposed to come up with 6 questions for it.

I have been asking him about things I might ask on the test and letting him know I may or may not use that question, so the truth would be wise. He will hesitate and I can see him struggle with telling the truth, but he has accepted he has to start telling the truth to break a lifetime of habitually protecting his addiction.

I had read, and the counselor confirmed it, that the vast majority of SAs had some event(s) or abuse in their early years that sort of twists their perception of sex--how they feel about it or feel from it.

My spouse had not admitted anything like that. He did seem to have a mother who was rather stern and she often reacted to a small boy's regular erections by telling him to go immediately to the bathroom and "fix himself". I have not thought that could have such a huge impact, but the counselor thinks it could.

Today, I realized there had be something else, so I tried to think of any possible sexual experience that could have been something he would have wanted to hide early on from very straightlaced parents.
As I went down the list of the usual things, it was all "no". Then I remembered he was in FFA and had sheep and calves as projects. I asked him if he ever had sex with his sheep. He took a minute to answer. Finally, he admitted to sex with his sheep and his calf during his last two years in high school. He was a shy kid and afraid of trying to approach girls. He never dated in high school and was never with a woman until he met his first wife in college. Wow, I guess he made up for that with the 400 prostitutes! Maybe I should not even post this info here, but I just felt like I had to talk about this somewhere. We have all heard the jokes about sheep, but until today, I never thought anyone actually did that. Thing is, I was really only moderately shocked. I guess I am numb to some degree after all I have learned the past weeks. He said he had not remembered he did that until I asked. I told him I thought he should discuss this with his counselor. Maybe you can never understand what made a SA who he is, but I am the sort of person who has to know all about why a person has hurt me before I can be at peace with it. I know it is a process that won't happen overnight. I still have not decided to stay or go. Both choices carry a heavy price. I am waiting to see what his actions will be in the coming months.


Me 52
Him 54 yr old SA for past 25 yrs
married 6+ years
grown children from other marriages

Posts: 5 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Texas
ScribblingMum
♀ Member
Member # 20097
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I FINALLY figured out how to put my picture up here in Fun & Gamees!!!!!

NOW i wanna see YOURS! LOL!


~ScribblingMum~
D-D 1: 12/23/06 - Porn (dd bust him on-line)
D-D 2: 4-25-08 - Massage P.'s(new act. in pretend recov.)
D-D 3:9-9-08 Caught call m. girl
D-Day 4: 6/30/09 -: free MP g.f./prost.
D-Day 5: 1-10-10: new mp prost's.
~DONE!


Posts: 1529 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: S .CALIF.
2br02b
♀ Member
Member # 19664
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here's mine:
http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=307795&AP=41&HL=


Me 51
Him 53 (and SA)
D-Day#1 9/19/1981
D-Day#2 11/23/2008
D-Day#3 - 6/6/09 (Actually D-Day!) - full disclosure given.
Forgiveness - 8/30/09
Married 29 years
2 adult children
Reconciling
2BR02B - that is the question.

Posts: 81 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Phoenix, AZ
Eternaloptimist
♀ Member
Member # 15029
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HopeFades,

Welcome here. I haven't read your profile yet, but I will. In the meantime, don't be afraid to post anything. We've all heard it/lived it/whatever so we're hard to shock!

JustWow,
I'm so sorry for all you're dealing with. Try not to add guilt to your burden. Your kids can tough it out in the short-term -- it's not going to hurt them (could, in fact, help them) to pick up some slack while you tend to a recovering (in more ways than one) husband.

7,
I, took have a fairly pristine copy of MASH that you could scan -- however, we might want to think about copyright. There's a fee involved to copy anything from copyrighted property so we'd likely have to contact the publisher to scan it and disseminate it.
In the meantime, I, too, will hound Gentle Path Press to reprint. I can't believe they'd stop publishing a book they only printed a short time ago.


Me: BS
Him: WS, SA
Married: 12 years
Three kids: 9-year-old D, 7-year-old S, 5-year-old D
D-Day #1: December 11, 2006 (LTA)
D-Day #2: June 17, 2007 (found out about SA)

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Toronto
1 day at a time
♀ New Member
Member # 24787
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Response to URGENT! from "7"

I recently purchased a copy of Mending a Shattered Heart (per your recommendation) from a book store that specializes in recovery and self-help books. It is located in Westmont, NJ. They do have a website and I believe there is an option to purchase online.

I highly recommend this book as I finished it within a week and have already referred back to it several times.

[This message edited by 1 day at a time at 8:11 PM, July 26th (Sunday)]


Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Philadelphia
1 day at a time
♀ New Member
Member # 24787
Default  Posted: 8:10 PM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry, the name of the bookstore is eleventh step and the website is eleventhstep.com

Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Philadelphia
OneTooMany?
♀ New Member
Member # 24672
Default  Posted: 10:21 PM, July 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi everyone,

It's been a while since I've posted. I have been reading and trying to catch up and want to welcome all of the newcomers who showed up after me. It is so sad to see how many new people register on this site on a daily basis. Thankfully, this is a great place of support that I am very glad to have found.

My H is continuing on the path of recovery and has been sexually sober for three weeks. We had a disclosure session with his CSAT last week where he completely "came clean" with all of his compulsive behaviors. My CSAT attended the session as well, which was helpful because there were more than a few surprises, including how often he was going to adult bookstores to masturbate and indulge in voyeuristic activities. I am overwhelmed by the amount of time, energy, and money he has spent over the years to accommodate these behaviors. Both CSATs believe that he is doing everything he can to be honest and open with me.

So at this point I should be feeling better that he is getting the help he needs and he is making progress. I do feel better in a way, but I still feel so hurt and betrayed and angry. It feels like he has just wiped the slate clean and wants me to do the same, and he gets surprised and hurt whenever I tell him that I still can't trust him or that I feel angry. We attended Recovering Couples Anonymous - a meeting specifically for SA and spouses of SA - and he was so excited about working the 12 steps together. While I am happy to have a support group of people who have BTDT, I am not as excited as him. I guess I'm still finding it hard to have faith that our marriage can recover. I feel horrible even typing that.

I used to feel like our love could conquer anything. His compulsive behaviors and addictions have made it difficult to still feel that way. He constantly tells me he loves me, but I just don't feel like he has SHOWN me love in a really long time. I don't even know how to communicate that to him in a way he could understand. I just need to have faith that it will work itself out - for better or worse.

Thanks for reading my rant.


Married 13 years, betrayed many times. Have two wonderful kids and hoping we can still make this work.

"To love is not just to look at each other but to look together in the same direction." ~ Antoine de St. Exupery


Posts: 39 | Registered: Jul 2009
whatnowaz
♀ Member
Member # 24543
Default  Posted: 12:29 AM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Onetoomany~ I really feel for you. In my case, I am waiting for another affair, secret email account, profile on a dating site....and then I think I will be done. It's always about "One more time" for me. It's like I have been saying "the next time I'll leave" but I have been saying that for years. I hope and pary we can work this out. That I can be here when he has recovered from this addiction, but I just feel like I cannot make ANY promises. I, like many of you, have hung in there for so long hoping he'd change. Only to find out, he may not be capable...atleast not on his own. I did NOT sign up for this, but Im so invested. Just like you and most of the others on here. It breaks my heart that someday I may have to walk away. In the meantime, I just hope and pray that our SA spouses will get the help they need, that they will continue to want to change!

To All~ My WH has not been diagnosed SA...is it fair that I am diagnosing him?


ME(BS)-33
HIM(WH)SA(not officially Dx)-41
Married 8 years
together 15
D-day too many to remember
most recent 6-16-09
kids 4,12,14

They say "Love conquers all" Well, I am afraid they are WRONG!


Posts: 174 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: arizona
imtrying
♀ Member
Member # 22031
Default  Posted: 1:43 AM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Was I ever glad to find this forum exists. I have been reading SI a lot, and learning a lot, but never felt my situation fit in with the model of an OW, since for me, my recentlyXBF did not have one OW, but an entire separate life with a variety of activities. Like a cruise ship!

So, here we are, a year after D-Day, and he has been acting really similar, in striking ways, even saying the same things as if thinking of them for the first time.

I started researching sex/love addiction, and of course I found both of us in the descriptions. Everything makes sense now.

Today my issue is that he's here, in my house, and wants to stay for awhile - few days or few weeks. Says he will pay rent, which he has done 2 times in over 2.5 year. Says he will work on house, which he does do, but scattered and never finishing a project (I'm the same way, but I don't keep tearing up new rooms!).

In some ways I want him here, even though I was the one that ended the relationship this time. I realized though, that whatever reason I gave, I really just want to keep him in my life and try to control him with the threat of kicking him out.

That was hard to admit, but a friend made me list what is good about him staying and what is bad, and that real reason popped out without my permission.

So, he just got his first paycheck in a year, and he already borrowed 120 bucks from me and today asked if he can pay me his next paycheck. He definitely can't afford an apartment, but he could rent a room in a house. I even offered to pay him.

I think he should just go. But it is a battle in me, and I know that as soon as I say it, he will say, "Ok," and go with no further comment. And that will trigger my fears and I will start a fight or cry.

So, I guess I just have to go through with it. I'm putting it off...

Today a big piece of the puzzle fell into place. I've known he's lying and holding things back, but he keeps denying it, and then admitting to something small, but swearing he's been "trying so hard to be good."
Nothing quite adds up, though, and so I really pushed him to say whether it was all in my imagination or not - just for my own sanity. And he admitted there are some things he can't tell me due to not wanting to hurt my feelings. Then he sighed and hemmed and hawed and told me that I don't smell good "down there." He said I had been fine for awhile but not lately. I thought this was VERY interesting since he told me this last year, after we broke up. I just thanked him both times and said I'd be even more vigilant.

But the coincidence stayed with me. Finally I added that with some other odd and unfinished things he had said, and I realized that he doesn't like my body. I'm overweight- maybe 30 pounds or less, and large breasted, and he likes tiny bodies, flat chested.

When he loves me, he loves my body, but lately I haven't felt that I am of any interest to him. Same last year, before I knew what he was doing. I felt it was my fault then, and felt horrible to be rejected for my weight.

Today I asked him if he was turned off by my weight and attracted to other women instead, and he agreed reluctantly. I felt bad for a moment, but this year I see it differently. I see now that people justify their behaviors, and deal with the guilt, by blaming their partners. I have the same body he adored back in November, when he wanted us to reunite. Then it was exciting to him. Now it's a turn off.

It feels very freeing to not internalize it. The negative feelings I have towards him are basically the same as what I felt to my ex-husband when he chose drinking instead of the family - sadness colored with anger at the addiction. I know he can't see it. He can't see me. He can't see himself.

We tried to talk about his moving out plans and got sidetracked. I told him that it is not possible for me to live with him since he can't be honest with me. We ended up looking in his email box, so he could prove that he has nothing to hide. It was so clean in there that I could hear the wind whistling through. His sent box had nothing but a message sent to me- -- nothing else in 5 days.

I pointed that out and suddenly he was angry in a really nasty way, and told me that I'm disgusting and don't I get sick of accusing him all the time.

I stopped talking and turned away. He can't see it. I know where that anger comes from. Or, if I'm wrong, it's not surprising that I'm suspicious.

But in the end, what he does is his own business. It doesn't matter to me anymore. I have seen enough to know that he is locked into this compulsive cycle, and that I am locked into compulsively trying to hold onto him.

And that is the only thing I can change.

I thought I had a question, but maybe it was just that I wanted people to tell me if I'm thinking straight, and catch me if I'm not. And also some feeling of camaraderie. So it's not so lonesome here in SuddenlyISeeMyProblems Land.


Posts: 721 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Pacific NW USA
HopeFades
♀ New Member
Member # 24934
Question  Posted: 4:55 AM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have an important question of everyone. I guess it is really more of a Poll.
I'm still painfully new at this whole SA thing. My husband seems to be cooperating with counseling, support group, going to church etc. He says he can't control himself on his own, but has a chance if he is doing all he is supposed to do with the above. I have asked him if he has acted out at all since his arrest June 4 and this whole thing came crashing into my reality. He says he has not acted out since then and knows he will have this tested.
So, here's the question(s);
Of the SA's who seem to be serious about recovering how many still acted out again? How often? He is supposed to take lie detector tests every 3-6 months. How many clear tests (proving he hasn't been with a prostitute, looked at porn etc) would be prudent to require before I consider intimacy again. 6 months? Year? Two? I can't take the fallout of more betrayal or the risk of HIV/Hepatitis, etc. I work in the health field and I am all too aware his behavior is playing with my life not just my heart. I absolutely will not sleep with him ever again if he is likely to seek a prostitute again despite being serious about his treatment. If I thought there would come a time in his treatment that he was truly over this and would not act out putting me at risk, perhaps I could allow the possibility of trying to reconcile our marriage toward a point in the future that included sexual intimacy. Sorry to pester everyone, but many outside the SA community are telling me he will never stop for good. I want to know what your experiences have been. I know it isn't 100% reliable to judge my spouse on, but it would help to know the odds in general. Thanks very much to everyone who answers.


Me 52
Him 54 yr old SA for past 25 yrs
married 6+ years
grown children from other marriages

Posts: 5 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Texas
IRN2006
♀ Member
Member # 23717
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Of the SA's who seem to be serious about recovering how many still acted out again? How often?

Well, my husband has been sober for over two years years. He went cold turkey with the porn in Feb of 06. He had a month of "slipping" with masturbation. I don't count that in his sobriety though. I consider him sober starting in April of 06.

My husband has not had a slip or relapse. My boundaries are such that if my husband relapses, I'm done with the marriage. I don't have another recovery in me. I also don't have any boundaries with slips. I figure I'll deal with that when it happens.

My husband's addiction did not escalate to physical cheating. We are also younger than you, having been married less than ten years when d-day happened.

If I thought there would come a time in his treatment that he was truly over this and would not act out putting me at risk,

I do not believe my husband will ever be over this. Just like someone who manages diabetes will never be over it. My husband will always be a recovering addict, and as such, I will always be at risk that he may choose one day to act out.

For today (and only today), the positives outweigh the risks. Tomorrow it may not be, but I don't worry about the future much anymore. I can't control it.

Also, keep in mind it takes couples 3-5 years to heal from sex addiction. This is really a long term process.

I've also found-for me- discussing sex addiction with those that have no experience with it really serves no purpose because they don't understand.

I've also learned, for myself, that I cannot judge my or my husband's recovery against anyone else's. It causes too much anxiety, again, for no good reason.


Posts: 1295 | Registered: Apr 2009
imtrying
♀ Member
Member # 22031
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

May I write some more? I've been up all night, reading about SA in various websites.

I keep getting stuck on his total rejection of me. It happened last year, before we broke up. Later, when he came back, he was surprised at the things he said, or the things he had done. He said he didn't know who that person was.

But now he's doing it again. Again it is as if I don't exist to him. As if he woke up and found himself living with a stranger whom he instantly hated.

He is indifferent at best, cruel at times. Blaming me, nearly always, for failing him, for causing the behaviors to start up again, although mostly he denies backsliding at all. Sometimes he acts like he's had head trauma. Sometimes he tries to initiate sex. Sometimes he is smug and mocking.

Never is he like he was until recently. It's the same guy that left me last June, stole money, tricked me repeatedly, then moved out of state and told me he was the victim.

Is this sort of behavior part of the SA?

I don't know whether to tell him to not come back, or just avoid him but let him stay until he is more stable and has a place.


Posts: 721 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Pacific NW USA
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I got a reply from Gentle Path Press:
Thanks for your comments. Mending A Shattered Heart is currently in reprint
and will be available soon.

Yay! Hopefully, it won't be long!


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
too trusting BW
♀ Member
Member # 15459
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hopefades,

My SAH has been in recovery (sometimes not so enthusiastically) since last October. SAH has been attempting continuous sobriety since then. He has not made it further than 50 days of the 90 days abstinence. His "slips" have been porn/masturbation.
Even though it has been frustrating at times, he hasn't lied each time, since the first time. That tells me something about what he is feeling about honesty. It is winning over shame.

Acting out is not just an affair or prostitutes. As he recovers, and you begin to also, you will see that there are often other manifestations of acting out.
I never knew the man masturbated regularly, let alone can't go 90 days without! 11 yrs of marriage.

Your SAH may be saying he hasn't "acted out" but doesn't really have a good definition yet. Believe me, what they think is "no big deal" would surprise you.

As far as intimacy, that depends on yourself, how you feel.
I told my SAH in December (he was stalling restarting 90 days) that I would not be engaging in any sexual activity with him until I felt "OK" with it. Even once he is successful with being abstinent 90 days, I may not feel we are ready.
I felt so much relief with that decision. The decision whether to have sex or not was no longer in his court. I did not feel used, even though I didn't realize I had been feeling that way. It has had the most benefit in how I feel each of these times he has slipped. I do not feel it personally. Its his issue.

If he engages sexually with another person in real life, we will be divorced. I feel pretty strongly about that one.

My other boundaries are evolving as my healing does.

I guess what I am trying to say, is take away the decision of "when" to be intimate later on. This is a hard journey. Its unpredictable. Its painful. You can't really make a decision on WHEN you will feel ok. Make a decision for today.

While your SA is doing everything mine was in the beginning and he feels good about it, harder times are coming. There will be ups and downs. Sometimes you will think he is totally sabotaging himself. Other times you will feel tears welling up at the emotions you are seeing in him for the first time.

Some are never able to get to the point of feeling trust and intimacy with their SA partner. A woman in my women's support group just filed for divorce (25 yrs) after her SA completed his treatment program. She didn't hate him, but even with recovery, he never did really become open and intimate with her. It happens.

[This message edited by too trusting BW at 2:48 PM, July 27th (Monday)]


Me 39
SA-FWH 44
11yrs M
In R-maybe
3 DC from Marriage #1
1 DS together
at least 4 d-days

Posts: 1300 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Kansas
too trusting BW
♀ Member
Member # 15459
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

imtrying,

While I read your description, I thought of an alcholic teen, or a heroin addict.
If we hear of these addicts stealing, neglecting families, ending up on the streets, and other horrible situations, we think about how drugs have ruined so many lives.

What your SA is doing, is acting like an addict out of control. How do they suggest dealing with an out of our of control addicts in other addictions? Detach. Detach with love if possible, but you shouldn't take it personal.

This is one of the ways in which you are learning that you will know when he isn't sober. Their whole demeanor changes. No proof is necessary once you know the signs.

In short, yes it can be a part of SA, just as with any addiction.

You decide what to do for yourself, not him.


Me 39
SA-FWH 44
11yrs M
In R-maybe
3 DC from Marriage #1
1 DS together
at least 4 d-days

Posts: 1300 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Kansas
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HopeFades
I have been trying to understand how he came to have such a high level of SA and such an incredibly good ability to hide it. He otherwise seems to be a really decent person.
He is a decent person, but he's a person with an addiction. You will not be able to understand how he came to be a SA (at any "level") until he does and chooses to share that with you.
Maybe you can never understand what made a SA who he is, but I am the sort of person who has to know all about why a person has hurt me before I can be at peace with it. I know it is a process that won't happen overnight. I still have not decided to stay or go. Both choices carry a heavy price. I am waiting to see what his actions will be in the coming months.

There are some commonalities between SAs usually but every SA is different and every SA will have a different path that they walked in their addiction. His ability to hide it is simply a part of it. He learned very early on how to compartmentalize his life and it worked for him for a very long time. It came crashing down when he got arrested, that ripped some of the walls down and his addiction compartment spilled into the marriage compartment. I understand you saying that you're going to wait and watch HIS actions in the coming months and of course you should do so, but you cannot be passive in YOUR recovery. You need to work too. Find a good IC who can counsel the spouse of a SA. Read the books recommended, specifically "Mending a Shattered Heart" by Stefanie Carnes (when it is reprinted) and "Deceived: Facing Sexual Betrayal, Lies, and Secrets" by Claudia Black Ph.D. You have to work your recovery too in order to make a decision down the road.

Of the SA's who seem to be serious about recovering how many still acted out again? How often?

I know you are desperate and I know you want to feel like you have some control over this by having answers. But you can't have those kinds of answers and you can't have that kind of control. Every SA is different. Every recovery is different. There is no "answer" to this question. There are millions of answers to this question because there are millions of SAs out there fighting for sobriety. You're focusing on the wrong things right now.
He is supposed to take lie detector tests every 3-6 months. How many clear tests (proving he hasn't been with a prostitute, looked at porn etc) would be prudent to require before I consider intimacy again. 6 months? Year? Two?

I personally don't put a whole lot of stock in lie detector tests. I would be more interested in how he is working his recovery. What he shows you. Is he seeing his CSAT? Is he going to SA meetings? Has he got a sponsor? Is he doing the work? (homework, workbooks, the steps) Is he sober? (he should be getting chips just like in AA marking his length of sobriety) You'll know if he's working his recovery or not. You won't even have to try too hard, you'll just know.
I absolutely will not sleep with him ever again if he is likely to seek a prostitute again despite being serious about his treatment.
It is always possible. If you are going to take that hard line and put down that kind of boundary based on the words "likely to", I think you're wasting your time trying to reconcile. There are no guarantees. He could get sober and never have sex with another prostitute ever. He could get sober and maintain it for a year and then slip with masturbation but get back into recovery and not act again. He could slip and have sex with a hooker. He could do that after 1 year, 10 years, 20 years. He might relapse completely and never be sober again. He might have that kind of major slip but pull himself up and get back into recovery and get sober again. There are no guarantees. If you want a guarantee you'll have to make your own and the only way to do that is to divorce him and remain alone and celibate the rest of your life. Most spouses of SAs will turn around and choose another addict. (I'm with my 3rd SA partner though I had no clue at the time that the first two were SA.) All that said, it is perfectly reasonable to set a boundary about sex with prostitutes and a consequences of divorce. Example: "If you ever have physical or sexual contact of any kind with a prostitute or any other person other than me, I will divorce you." That is a reasonable and enforceable boundary and consequence. My point it that you simply cannot control the "likelihood" of it. Does that make sense?
If I thought there would come a time in his treatment that he was truly over this and would not act out putting me at risk, perhaps I could allow the possibility of trying to reconcile our marriage toward a point in the future that included sexual intimacy.
He is an addict. He will NEVER be "over this" and there will always be a chance that he could act out. That is the reality of reconciling with an addict. You either accept that or you don't. As I said to someone else: He will never be "recovered." He is a sex addict. He will always be a sex addict. He can be "recovering" and working a program but he will never be "recovered." There is no end to this. He will either be a sex addict who is not acting out (recovering) or a sex addict who is acting out (active.) There is no such thing as recovered.
Sorry to pester everyone, but many outside the SA community are telling me he will never stop for good.
No one can know that. NO ONE. He doesn't. You can't. No one. All he can do is work his recovery and all you can do is work yours.
I want to know what your experiences have been. I know it isn't 100% reliable to judge my spouse on, but it would help to know the odds in general.

Read my profile for the LONG version. Then read this:
On Dday #1 I uncovered enough to know he was at the very least being unfaithful to me online. (He had actually been physically unfaithful to me with 40 women and was into porn, dating profiles, chat, "scanning" women etc) On Dday #1 he stopped all his physical affairs. He did not stop emailing some of them and planned to screw them again but he did not have sex with anyone else from that point forward. He did not stop looking at porn and compulsively masturbating. He did not stop "scanning" women in public and objectifying them for his own gratification.
DDay #2 was an escalation and he probably would have starting having sex with others again had I not caught him.
DDay #3 I got the truth about how many others he'd screwed. I didn't believe at the time that he hadn't screwed anyone else in 11 months (but it did turn out to be true). After DDay #3 it took him 4 months of seeing counselors, and finally a CSAT, going to a group and working at recovery to stop ALL his acting out and achieve sobriety. He got sober on August 29, 2006. He has never slipped. He will get his 3 year chip in August of this year. Is he typical? I don't know. Probably not. But like I said, all SAs are different and every SA will walk a different path. I'm not saying that your husband won't be able to get sober and stay sober. I'm saying that part of recovering is being able to accept that you cannot control it and that you cannot have any absolute guarantees.

YOU have to work on YOU. Will his recovery and his sobriety help in that regard? Sure it will but ultimately it's about what you do and what you choose.

Lastly, in my opinion, it's all about you deciding on boundaries and consequences. Perhaps mine will help you.

First and foremost your SA should have his own boundaries and consequences. This should happen while working with his CSAT, going to SA, working with his sponsor and working the steps. My rSA has his own set of boundaries / behaviors / consequences and that is KEY. Your SA should be working a program and have two lists; "boundary behaviors*" and "bottom line behaviors**" and have self imposed consequences for violating those. (Although I just discussed this with my rSA and he said that if an SA is only going to SA or SAA he may only have a "bottom line" list. I personally think my rSA's approach is much better.)

*Boundary Behaviors: These are behaviors that the SA identifies as things that could lead him to breaking his sobriety or things that are generally unhealthy based on his core issues. For example some of my rSA's boundary behaviors are:
~Flipping through the program guide on cable he sees "VH1's 50 Hottest Celebrities" and flips to that channel to take a look.

~Seeing an attractive woman in the grocery store and going out of his way to get another or better look at her. (AKA "scanning")

~Not changing the channel when something inappropriate comes on or not looking away.

So, if he does any of those things he's put on his list he's broken a boundary behavior and will set a consequence on himself, usually a chore he despises like cleaning the toilet. Again, this is HIS stuff. I stay out of it completely. The only exception would be if I were to see him do something and it upset me, I would talk to him about it and share how it made me FEEL. Period. This is not mine to put consequences on. This is HIS front line defense.

**Bottom Line Behaviors are those which he would be required to reset his sobriety for. Examples are: looking at porn, masturbating, looking at online personal ads or visiting inappropriate websites like AFF, having sex with anyone other than me.

My boundaries and consequences are all based on his bottom line behaviors and there are levels of severity.

My Level 1 Boundary: He looks at porn or masturbates.
My initial consequence: We do another 90 day abstinence contract and I ask him to show me that he is recommitted to working his program by going to additional counseling and more group meetings. We go to more marriage counseling.
My secondary consequence: If he refuses to comply with any of the initial consequence, I will separate from him for 90 days. If he still does not comply, I will file for divorce.

My Level 2 Boundary: He looks at online personal ads or places an ad but has not progressed to meeting anyone, he's just looked.
My initial consequence: We separate and HE is the one who has to move out. He must show that he is recommitted to his recovery by going to counseling more often and attending more groups. I will consider letting him come home when he's been sober for 6 months.
My secondary consequence: If he doesn't get sober or if he does not comply with any of the initial consequence, I will file for divorce.

My Level 3 Boundary:
If he has any kind of sexual physical contact whatsoever with another person.
My consequence: DIVORCE. Period. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200. There are no second chances on this one. He fucks around again and that is it, I'm done.

For levels 1 and 2 there is an additional note, if he tells me about it the consequences stand as written, if he does not tell me and I find out on my own there will be an additional consequence for lying. I don't have that one set in concrete right now but I'm sure I will be able to find something that is appropriate. For Level 3, I have no illusions about that one, if I find out it will be on my own, he will never confess that to me and even if he does confess, that does not change the consequence. He screws around again and I'm gone. Period.

I hope that is helpful. What you have to do is figure out what works for YOU and your relationship. These are what work for me and yours may look very different.

~~~~~~~~~~~

OneTooMany?

So at this point I should be feeling better that he is getting the help he needs and he is making progress.

There are no "shoulds" here. You feel what you feel. Period. Don't put that pressure on yourself and live in "shoulds" you have to live in what "is."
I do feel better in a way, but I still feel so hurt and betrayed and angry.
Of course you do. Nothing has been done to address your feelings. All the attention is on him and his recovery. That is typical for the beginning of recovery.
It feels like he has just wiped the slate clean and wants me to do the same, and he gets surprised and hurt whenever I tell him that I still can't trust him or that I feel angry.
First, he has NOT wiped the slate clean. It's good that he is seeking treatment but that does NOT wipe the slate clean or absolve him for hurting you. However, he is not far enough into his recovery to be able to "hear" your pain and anger without becoming defensive. He has not learned these new skills yet. At some point you'll both have done enough IC that you can then do MC. It will be then that he will need to learn how to hear your pain and anger and let you express everything you need to express. Also, he will need to make amends to you when he works his steps. Until then you need to be working through those feelings with someone who can hear you and help you... a really good IC (or CSAT.)
We attended Recovering Couples Anonymous - a meeting specifically for SA and spouses of SA - and he was so excited about working the 12 steps together. While I am happy to have a support group of people who have BTDT, I am not as excited as him. I guess I'm still finding it hard to have faith that our marriage can recover. I feel horrible even typing that.
Don't feel horrible. Again this is NORMAL. Typical even. He is hopeful because he suddenly has answers and resources. What do you have? A bunch of information that you wish you'd never heard. A broken heart. A wounded soul. Those things take longer to recover from. The recovery for the spouse is much longer and you need to tell your rSA that. This is explained really well in "MaSH" Chapters 3 and 4. Both chapters outline the stages of recovery. Keep in mind that all recoveries take an average of 3 to 5 YEARS before you really reach a good place. This does not happen overnight. Also, you can be jumping around between stages for a long time, it doesn't happen chronologically. Triggers can throw you back to a different stage and make you feel like all progress is lost.

Here is the biggest hurdle. The addict and the spouse are very rarely in the same stage at the same time. Chapter 4 of "MaSH" explains this in great detail. You really must read it. I can't possibly type it all out. If you don't have the book, you should try to borrow it from someone on the thread. (Gentle Path is going to reprint but all they say is that it will "be available soon")

~~~~~~~~~~~~

whatnowaz

That I can be here when he has recovered from this addiction
I hope you meant to say "recovering." He will never be "recovered." He is a sex addict. He will always be a sex addict. He can be "recovering" and working a program but he will never be "recovered." There is no end to this. He will either be a sex addict who is not acting out (recovering) or a sex addict who is acting out (active.) There is no such thing as recovered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

imtrying Welcome.

I really just want to keep him in my life and try to control him with the threat of kicking him out.

I think he should just go. But it is a battle in me, and I know that as soon as I say it, he will say, "Ok," and go with no further comment. And that will trigger my fears and I will start a fight or cry.
This is extremely unhealthy and very codependent. You really need to start working on YOUR recovery. If you look at the 3rd post on page one of this thread you will find my list of resources. It will help you. Especially the reading. You cannot save him and you're not doing yourself any favors by keeping him there because you're afraid to be alone. Seek counseling and work through your abandonment issues.
It feels very freeing to not internalize it. The negative feelings I have towards him are basically the same as what I felt to my ex-husband when he chose drinking instead of the family - sadness colored with anger at the addiction. I know he can't see it. He can't see me. He can't see himself.
I'm glad you can see that all that bullshit about his lack of interest in you is just that, bullshit. I also see that you have a history of coupling with addicts. You need very specific counseling to find out why you keep choosing addicts so you can break the cycle.
But in the end, what he does is his own business. It doesn't matter to me anymore. I have seen enough to know that he is locked into this compulsive cycle, and that I am locked into compulsively trying to hold onto him.

And that is the only thing I can change.


That's exactly right! You can only change YOU. And it's time. Set boundaries and consequences. He need to go. Now. And you know it. So do it. You're not responsible for him or where he goes or what he does. You know this. You said so. You can do this. Stay strong. Get counseling. Keep posting here.

~~~~~~~~~~

Well, there I go again. Geez, I'm long winded. And blunt. Always blunt. But I care about everyone very much and I don't see the point in not being straight about things.

I wish you all the best,
7


[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 3:03 PM, July 27th (Monday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
imtrying
♀ Member
Member # 22031
Default  Posted: 9:21 PM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks all! Love the bluntness, keep it going....

Posts: 721 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Pacific NW USA
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 9:48 PM, July 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

too trusting - thanks!

It was about MY issues, that I chose these men.
I have come to learn, that while I did not consciously think that I had worth only if someone desired me, I probably did.

Ouch! That one hit home. To me, that seems like a very big and important part of a relationship. Isn't it?

I am also realizing that I have a problem with being a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and I tend to go for "bad boys", not just to try to fix them, but for the excitement level. And of course, the bad boys seem to have a higher chance of having some sort of intimacy issues.

Finding out all kinds of fun things about myself. Still broken here!

I thought I was figuring all this stuff out, and now as I am moving on, (and at least I have detached enough to be able to do that!), I thought I was all healed, but apparently there is still quite a bit of work to do. Ugh!

Back to square one.....


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

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