why do some WS expect something completely different than they've given their BS, things like fidelity, compassion, love, etc, and get angry or frustrated when the BS says something that is not along those lines?
For starters, because a recovering WS understands how wrong things like infidelity and holding back love are. They know first hand how destructive that behavior can be.
i tell him i'm going to start putting myself first before his needs
Is this exactly how you phrase it? Because if that's what I heard especially in the early months of R, it would scare the daylights out of me. A WS is already questioning whether or not their BS can find a path to forgiveness and hope. To be told that their BS is going to focus on themselves allows the WS to further worry that they have no chance to recover.
The most effective path I've found is when both people care so deeply about each other than they support each other's healing. My BW asked for 100% commitment from me to R, but she did so being willing to invest all of herself in the process. To be honest, she took on a very unfair burden as she waited for me to defog through IC before I could truly be there to support her healing. It wasn't fair, and it wasn't right. But in the end we have an amazing M now, and I give full credit to Wells for her ability to show me such tremendous Grace.
When you think about your infidelity, is there any part of you that is glad you did it?
No, because the price you pay is far too great. This is like asking someone who carjacks a Ferrari, gets caught and is sentenced to 20 years in prison. The 15 minute thrill of the joyride can't offset the misery of jail time.
Only in an A, it's a life sentence. In an isolation room. With no possibility for parole.
There is no part of me that has any positive reflections of my A.
Is this exactly how you phrase it?
we were discussing me still in limbo and i promised him that i wouldn't bring up separation until i was completely determined that that was what i was determined to do if that was the path i decided to chose. i told him that i realize that bringing it up was doing nothing for him nor me. and then he said he would like me not to bring up the A over and over again with the same words, that he wanted me to say them in a different way. i told him that he had complained in the past about me bringing up the same thing but with different words, that he was confusing me and giving me mixed signals, and that i would not stop a behavior which is healing for me (within reason) just because it hurt for him to hear my words, and that what i was saying was coming from a place of anger and resentment. then he fell silence. i don't know if he was angry or frustrated.
[This message edited by icbtih8 at 2:37 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]
Beauty is a calling...a call "to transfigure what has harden or was wounded within you"
-- John O'Donohue
My guess is you are looking to be heard and he is not listening. And he is looking to be spoken to, but not in the way you are going about it. If you can't get past that wall, there's not much hope for better healing for either of you.
Thanks for your insight.
filed for D Oct. 15, served Dec 18
D final June 21, 2011
Your story makes me sad, I see you trying and giving so much. You are doing so well, relatively speaking, it just breaks my heart that you still feel the pain. If your efforts were justly rewarded, this whole mess would have disappeared by now.
Anyway, you had a question. I'm going to give you my take on our version of this situation.
...where is the I'm sorry? Don't get me wrong, he has said that he is sorry, but not often. Will that take time? He just doesn't say it as much as I thought he would.
Baby steps work well for me . It allows for a gradual change, with a clear view of the 'next good thing'. It allows for the reinforcement of good behaviour. For me, that's an essential part of learning. Now, you say you appreciate his difficulties and the work he is doing. That should be enough for him, especially if you let him know this in a way he understands. I mean this in a general sense, you don't have to pat him on the back every time he calls you. For me it was (and still is) important to know I'm on the right track. So I check my bearings with my husband - "this is what I see, this is how I feel, this is what I'm doing, is that okay with you, can I do anything else for you?" And then I adjust my course accordingly. So, perhaps you can let him know how you want him to communicate with you and how you plan to communicate with him. No need to heap on praise, but if he needs any encouragement he can ask for it. Not your job to carry his ego, please remember that.
where is the I'm sorry?
As lefttoolate shared, it can seem to a truly remorseful WS that "I'm sorry" just won't cut it. That, and how many times can it be said before it sounds hollow and manufactured, like you're just saying what you're supposed to say.
Clearly it's important to you. Have you shared this with your WH? That verbal apologies mean a lot to you?
It may help to start it from a bit of a process and work from there. Ask him if he would be willing to tell you he's sorry once per day for a while. Even better, that he could say what he is sorry for (a new reason each day) which would help you see that he gets the extent of what he has done.
Should I be appreciative of what he does do? (I am!)
It does help a lot, because it helps let a WS know that they are doing good things, and reinforces the good that you want to see them do each day.
Will it increase with time?
It can. For me, as I healed through IC and was able to make myself a stronger person, I was in a better position to give my BW support and love.
If your husband has nothing to hide he should hide nothing - keep nothing from you, withhold nothing you ask for that he is able to give. At the very least he can get it into his head that now is not the time to insist on privacy or personal anything for himself. Seriously, that's pretty basic. Spite and resentment are off limits until he learns how to curb those childish urges.
End lecture. Sorry.
ETA: Of course, his tendencies can be very powerful and hard to get rid of. I felt a need for secrecy over the littles things. It was a rather tough habit to break, actually. But it turned out to be one of the things that paved the way for my husband to be able to relax his wariness around me. It's a big thing, in hindsight.
[This message edited by leftoolate at 3:57 PM, October 23rd (Friday)]
I didn't hide anything out of spite. I hid it out of my natural tendency to lie, hide, and minimize when Iím confronted. My selfish need for self-preservation over what's in the best of interest of my BH was a definite driving force behind the lying and hiding. Itís not like I couldn't tell him - he'd been asking me, continuously, if there was anything else he should know. I kept lying and hiding. Ultimately, he found out thanks to my commitment to total transparency (I had given him my email passwords and he decided to use them and found something I thought I had deleted).
As for your WS, as many have said, those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. If he's hiding anything from you, that's a huge red flag. Does it mean the A is still going on or there might be another OP? Possibly. OR, it could mean that his behaviors are learned behaviors and dishonesty comes quite naturally to him. This is the case with me. I have a natural tendency to lie, hide, and minimize when Iím backed into a corner - so much so, that it becomes my first reaction. Iíve been this way since I was a child as it got me out of trouble with my parents. Since it never failed me as a child, I thought it was a winning formula and ran with it. Of course, it's a TOTAL FAIL, but I say this so that you understand what MIGHT be driving your WS to continue hiding things from you.
have any of you ws's tried to still hide things you where doing as an act of rebellion just because of the difficulty dealing with your BS and thier need to pry into every aspect of your life? whether you where upto good or bad activities. really just to spite or resist?
I have never felt Mr. V was prying. There were no spite feelings on my part...why would I want to be with someone who I acted like this towards? spite? thats misplaced anger. That..I get. I was very very very angry with myself for a long time, and it made emotional conversations about the A and the destruction it caused..well...super hard. I would sound and look and seem angry towards Mr.V, but it was frustration and anger at myself that was getting spewed onto him.
MC helped with this alot.
His need for verification during the early part of R was, for me, welcomed. Because I knew I wasnt hiding anything anymore, and it was my chance to "show" him that I meant all the flowery words I was saying.
Actions vs words.
I believe that if someone protests about privacy and blah blah.....there is something to hide. Has to be. Even if its seemingly harmless. I just dont buy it that a person who can say " I will do anything to make this better" doesn't get the need for NO privacy for an undetermined period of time.
Yes, it was difficult to face the shaming consequences of my actions that manifested themselves in the absolute pain and hurt in Mr.V's face. But difficult is nothing compared to what I had willingly dumped upon him.
Its the difference between owning your shit versus continuing to leave your shit piled on someone else.
[This message edited by Violette at 10:26 AM, October 24th (Saturday)]
Me, you, the dog and cat....the rest are details.
I guess my questions are:
1. Did you go to IC and did it help?
2. How can I get my WH to see the benefit of IC?
3. How could I get my WH to go to IC?
1. Did you go to IC and did it help?
2. How can I get my WH to see the benefit of IC?
If you don't mind taking the initiative in this, you could set up a few short appointments for him, say three in the next four/five weeks. Then provide him with a written cheat sheet (no pun intended) so he knows what to tell the therapist when they ask "So, what brings you here, Mr F?". You can let your husband know that these three sessions are very important to you. It will cost you x amount of money and it will provide you with x reassurance.
And then he'll do the sessions or have a big fight on his hands. It may or may not get him to work on his issues, that really depends on the therapist and the client.
Good luck, I hope you get what you need.
Edited for grammar.
[This message edited by leftoolate at 4:36 AM, October 25th (Sunday)]
My H went to IC once, but that was before full disclosure and d-day #2. It just hurts me to see him struggle so much. His A and possible OC is difficult for both of us. But he seems to shut down at times and seems to turn away from me. He is in complete NC, I just want he to find a way to work through his pain, guilt, and remorse. I hate seeing him like this.
I will try to talk to him about IC again, asking him to try again fora couple of sessions. He just feels like he lied and held back from our MC and he thinks she'll judge him, which she won't. We have MC tuesday, we could talk about it then too.
[This message edited by Finesse026 at 3:17 PM, October 25th (Sunday)]
I am just wondering how it all works with male WS and female WS. I read so much on the boards that the female is ususally the agressive one in the beginning. I am just wondering if this is really true in most cases or just another way for my h to justify his a?
Well, I'm a female WS. The first evening, the OM came on to me and I responded. He held the reigns that evening. After that, there was a sort of 'undecided' period, in which we met & talked twice and sort of made a pact concerning that first night. After that, I was the one who went after him for more. It just took me a couple of weeks to arrange it. (BTW, I still feel sick typing this. Disturbing.)
So, at first he pursued me, which led to heavy petting, then I pursued him, leading to oral s. No real emotion involved.
I've been told that this is a rather masculine way to conduct an affair. You could be right about that.
However, it doesn't seem like much of an excuse to me... "Yeah, well, they started it!" Sorry, no go.
Why would a FWS continue to protect all information about the affairs, and all the identities of all of the OW, even though many years have past by and we are totally reconciled?
If it has been that many years it may be that the details have been forgotten. Or the WS may not want the BS to learn how horrible the WS thinks it is. The WS is afraid that the BS might fear the information, even far out, may cause a divorce. The WS may fear losing all trust again because some information might not have been disclosed the first time.
I am just taking guesses at your question but that is what I can see hiding information would be for.
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So, I'm 4+ months past dday. My WW is in NC w/ OM. I know that my WW is still pining for OM and misses him. While my WW is much nicer to me, I get very little remorse and have never really received an apology. We are going to MC every 2 weeks. In addition, we have not been intimate since dday (her choice).
So, that's the short story of where we are at. IMO, we have not progressed very far in R because WW is still in withdrawal and is stuck on OM. I get the feeling that she feels "hey, I'm here, doesn't that prove that I'm committed to R and our M?" Almost like she is doing me a favor...what a joke. Anyway, sorry for the mini vent. Personally, I don't have much more patience for this. I love my WW VERY much and this has completely devestated me, but I will not sit here in limbo while she "gets over" her boyfriend.
Yes, we have talked about her feelings and my feelings about this. She is very aware of what I need and want. Unfortunately, she is not upfront w/ me about her lingering feelings for OM. I get to find that stuff out on my own.
How the hell do I snap my WW out of this fog/withdrawal stage??? Yes, I know I can't make her do or feel anything. I guess I'm asking for realistic thoughts on what helps WSs come around.
I asked WW if she wanted to see IC...she seemed open to it. Should we suspend MC for awhile and have WW go to IC (can't afford both)?