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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, January 6th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cecil2156 -

when you came out of your fog was it all of the sudden or was it a gradual process?

It was gradual for me. D-Day was certainly a shock to my system. But it took five months of progressive defogging to clear it all out.

Think of it like an onion. At the core is the truth. As I created my first lie (to myself and to others), a layer grew. Then another lie and another layer.

D-Day sliced the ends off and peeled the outer skin away. But I had to tear apart each lie piece by piece. Our M wasn't as bad as I made it out to be. Things I convinced myself were flaws in my BW were really flaws in me. As each lie was peeled away, I got to the next layer of lies to work on.

After five months (and another shock to my system via a phone record), the final layer was stripped away and I was able to see the full truth for what it was.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
deathbybetrayal
♀ Member
Member # 22478
Default  Posted: 11:15 PM, January 6th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unexpected Song - thank you for your response. I do know that he's the "sucky" one in all of this - it's just hard knowing that he made me out to be the bad wife in order to justify his affair. I believe that most people probably think, "Where there's smoke there's fire" even though he now recognizes the pattern he fell into. I guess it will pass with time.

[This message edited by deathbybetrayal at 8:09 AM, January 7th (Thursday)]


Married 10 years at DDay
Me: 53 Him: 52 - Desperately trying to unfuck the donkey.
DDay: July 16, 2008
FWH Epiphany: Aug.23, 2008 NC: Aug. 28, 2008

Posts: 5623 | Registered: Jan 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, January 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dbb - Something else to consider is how much effort should really be placed into changing your image in the eyes of people who are so willing to blindly accept what was told to them. Whether family, friends or colleagues, if they are willing to ignore their own impression of you and let the words of your WS form their opinion, I'm not sure they are people who deserve your concern about how they view you.

We were fortunate (if you can call it that) enough that my interactions were online and not with people who my BW knew. Their opinion doesn't matter at all. And I never told family or friends that my BW was anything but the great wife she truly is.

Given time, I think opinions will shift with those who are smart enough to observe you and see what good you do for the world. As for those that don't it really doesn't matter does it?


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Phoenix519
♀ Member
Member # 26186
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, January 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel a tremendous sense of the loss of innocence due to my fws A. I also feel so ordinary.

I found numerous emails and texts from him to her professing his love..there was so much of it that I was totally overwhelmed when I read it.

He has never admitted to me that he loved her. He absolutely will not. He says those things were "expected" and he felt coached so he did that in order to perpetuate the relationship. But that she was someone that cared and only that and that he didn't love her and doesn't love her now. He prefers me.

He has shown me he is dedicated to our marriage since dday and the affair ended several years ago, but I just discovered it in May of this year.

I explained how I felt and asked him to put into words how he feels about me, how I am set apart because I don't feel that way in the wake of all this.

He said he can't do that. His actions today and for the past year should tell me how he feels. That he loves me and wants to make this better and spend the rest of his life with me.

But he can't tell me why he loves me...I asked him questions and he agreed with all the things I said. But he can't put it into his own words.

Then he said...he made the mistake of sending foo foo silly emails to her and was not going to repeat that mistake with me. I didn't ask for emails, just for him to tell me...

It hurts so much that he can't do this and I don't understand what it means.

Can anyone give me any insight into this at all? It seems so obserd to me that he can't tell me what I need to hear. Although he has been showing me.


Posts: 581 | Registered: Nov 2009
the fsc
♂ Member
Member # 23028
Default  Posted: 8:54 PM, January 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Phoenix,

I have perpetual foot-in-mouth disease. As embarrassing as it is to admit this, when asked by a priest during our pre-cana class I told him that the reason I loved my future bride was because she was "spunky". This is but one sad example of how inept I am at verbalizing my feelings.

Some of us have a hard time verbalizing...it's just a fact. I find it much more comforting to be able to write and edit my thoughts before letting RR see them. That way I can make sure that whatever handicap there is between my heart and my mouth is overcome. Your WS my be embarrassed and ashamed of what he wrote and/or texted to OW because of the high-school level puppy-dog luvy stuff he said to perpetuate the relationship...but he does have to find a way to tell you in words be them written or spoken.

I don't think it's unreasonable for you to need and want to hear or read his words to reinforce what his actions are showing you. Maybe you can start off with asking him for a feelings talk...or just one letter (if he's got foot in mouth disease like me).

Hope this helps.


WH - (45) Me
BS - (44) Her (Redrock)

D Day 3/23/2008
Easter


Posts: 165 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Michigan
momnurse4u
♀ Member
Member # 27010
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, January 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello everyone! I sincerely hope that you all do not feel that I am invading your territory! I have been lurking around and reading posts and responses on here daily attempting to figure out just exactly where my WH was at the time of his A! I feel like I need to understand everything in order to move on to R which I believe that we are on our way to!
But here I am trying to understand where he is coming from which is why I am recruiting your help if that is possible! I love my husband with all my heart and while he had A with two OW...I think thru MC and alot of talking that we are heading towards a better place. I just need a little assistance!

He is remorseful, has been transparent, does everything that I request of him to do and everything! However, tonight is a perfect example! He texted me whats up sexy and I texted him back, then he texted me again and I asked him if he has changed? He never talked or wanted sex this much since we've been together (except for in the early dating stages when it is hot for everyone)! So he said not sure why is there a problem and I said no but then questioned him some more in the regards of....is he a sex addict (thinking that maybe he was and now that he had his D-Day fully knowing a D would be on file if he did it again, maybe he was turning all that to me) and also asked if he had A at other points in our M with OP prior to D-Day? I was not yelling, just simply asking questions because this is all so new and different. Needless to say, my WH got very upset with me and feels like I do nothing but drill him at all times (truthfully we don't talk about this very much at all anymore-the last 2 weeks have been rough because I triggered for no reason at all)that he is trying to change but that he isn't the only one that has things to change and that I need to respect his feelings too! Why couldn't I just go with the whole flirting thing and ask these questions later and that I blew his good mood! I tried to explain to him that they were questions that just popped into my mind right at that second and that is why I asked them!

I am rather confused and aggravated as I am sure he is too! But I just need some help from you folks out there to help me to understand exactly what it is that he is thinking and going thru. I know what I am going thru but I want to help him too! I want us to work on this together and make it thru together! We have done MC and case was dismissed after a few months so now we are on our own!

I would appreciate any responses. Please be very honest with me and don't worry that you will upset me or piss me off! I am way past that stage and I just want the truth-even if I don't like it! Thank you all very much!

Sorry that this post was so long!


ME-BW (37)
HIM-WH (38)(DieselGearHead)
M 8 YEARS together for 10
D-DAY 8/2/09
3 great girls-18, 5, 3
Thought R began 1/2010 but have since realized that not to be the case...I am still broken!


Posts: 91 | Registered: Dec 2009
Murphydog
♀ Member
Member # 26365
Default  Posted: 10:05 PM, January 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This may be posted somewhere on this forum, but so many I can't seem to find it...WS, my WH tells me this...
he had affair for 10 months because 1) he was addicted to the sex (orgasm)
2) she made no demands on him
3) she stroked his ego
4) he liked her attention and her 'I love you's'
5) he ONLY said "I love you" back to 'keep the game going'
6) he was trying to end it but didn't know how (she worked for him - he was afraid she would tell me and their boss)
7) he swears he has had NC for 5 months...

I guess what I am asking is does all of the above seem plausible? Or, is he trying to minimize to save my feelings...would a man really tell a woman he loves her (knowing he does not) to keep the game going? I probably sound naieve, but I just don't get it...


BS-me
FWS - him trying hard to find the man I married

Posts: 80 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From:
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 10:27 PM, January 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi momnurse4u,

There was one time when I was really being honest with my BW. It had to do with whether me and OW had ever slept together. We hadn't, ever (strictly EA), but BW questioned me about it right away and I got really upset that she didn't believe me on this one thing. I finally told a truth, and she didn't believe me. It was that one time where I felt and knew that I was being totally honest and my BW didn't believe me.

Maybe your WH finally got over that hurdle and was making a heartfelt effort to make changes and give you what he thought you needed. In return, he perceived that you didn't trust him.

in your WH's case and my own, I now realize that I have no right to expect trust without earning it first, but it took a while to learn that lesson. It may take a while for you WH to learn it too.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6036 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Phoenix -

Can anyone give me any insight into this at all?

Your WH may be a bit off in his assessment of why he expressed himself the way he did. Your D-Day was relatively recent right? It took me five full months to clear my fog before I started to see things for what they were.

While in the depth of an A, there is a confusion between the power of the lure of the A and terms of endearment. In my case, it wasn't that I loved xMOW. It was that I was so desperate for what she was providing me (external validation), that terms of endearment became my confused way of responding. In essence, I loved the go stroking and support as opposed to the person. But when you are deep in a fog, the two get blended into one.

Expressing why you love someone, especially after being with someone for a number of years, takes practice and effort. It's not that there aren't reasons that you love that person. It's that after years of just uttering "I love you" without thinking about why, you forget how to express it. In time, with a focused effort it can be regained.

The important thing to remember is that we love people for reasons we don't express every day. It's not the basis of that love that is missing. It's the ability to express it in words. That can and does come in time with practice. I say keep pressing him. Tell him you won't accept just an I love you from him, but you will accept an I love you because....

Eventually, he'll figure out how to express it.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:17 AM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

momnurse4u -

He never talked or wanted sex this much since we've been together

This is called Hysterical Bonding and it is a normal phase after discovery of an affair. It doesn't always happen, but it is not unusual.

So he said not sure why is there a problem and I said no but then questioned him some more in the regards of....is he a sex addict

Ah... look up "sex addict". Just because someone has a high sex drive does not mean that person is a "sex addict". Sex addiction is a synonym for something like "intimacy avoidance disorder". It is not something to throw around casually.

also asked if he had A at other points in our M with OP prior to D-Day?

That's a normal, expected question.

Needless to say, my WH got very upset with me and feels like I do nothing but drill him at all times [...]
Why couldn't I just go with the whole flirting thing and ask these questions later and that I blew his good mood!

Really, as the BS, you have the right to talk about the affair whenever you want. But, if you want to make things "easier", maybe you and your husband should agree to set aside time (every Tuesday after the kids are asleep, alone lunches on Friday, whenever) to specifically discuss the affair. This way, you can write down the questions that occur to you throughout the week and he knows that he has to answer questions at the appointed time.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Phoenix519-

Then he said...he made the mistake of sending foo foo silly emails to her and was not going to repeat that mistake with me. I didn't ask for emails, just for him to tell me...

There is a common perception that the WS should turn around and court the BS in like how the OW was courted. The fact is that the OP is someone completely separate and the WS does not want to treat the spouse at a lower level (like the OP).

It hurts so much that he can't do this and I don't understand what it means.

Has he said the words before and stopped since the affair discovery? If so, then there is an issue. If not and he's always been non-verbally communicative, then try not to feel hurt. He is truly showing you that he loves you, which is 1000 times worth more than the fake flowery emails.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

momnurse4u -

There were actually a number of dynamics going on when I was in the place your WH is in. There may be an element of an increased awareness of sexual desire in your WH. But part of it for me was a feeling of needing to overdo things to make up for lost time. Of course, this can't be done. But my brain kept telling me that I had given more affection to someone else than I had with my BW, so I needed to step up the frequency with her to make things even out. It was a wrong view, but part of my healing process to work through it.

I text frequently for work, with the kids, with members of my chorus, etc. But I am dead set against it when it comes to deeper discussions like working through the aftermath of an A. The most important thing in those conversations is for both of you to see the emotion behind the statements you make. With text, there is no emotion. It's words on a screen. Questions, shortened to make it within 165 characters, sound short, curt and harsh. Responses seem cold and lack detail. Both sides lose in that case.

I do think in the example you gave that it would have gone over better if you saved your questions for a time when you were face to face and could discuss them in person. If you're worried about forgetting the questions that pop into your head, keep a small notepad handy and jot them down so that you can remember to ask them later.

For his part, your WH will need to develop an understanding over time of the consequences of his actions. He's right that in order for the relationship to survive in the long term, his feelings will need to be taken into account. However, by virtue of having an A, a WS needs to deal with their feelings somewhat on their own. Your WH's actions caused direct harm to you, so he cannot expect to turn to you for support in healing. This is why I feel IC is so critical, and is actually more important in the early going than MC. Your WH needs to heal himself before the two of you can heal the relationship between you.

If it's possible, I'd also suggest he spend some time in the Wayward Forum here. It is the only resource I've found (and I've searched extensively) that will both hold a WS accountable for their actions yet still have compassion for the things a WS needs to work through to get better.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Murphydog -

I think it's plausible, but incomplete. Look at my reply to Phoenix for my take on why "I love you" is shared when real love may not exist.

It's incomplete because it doesn't call out the weakness your WH has that is practically screaming off the page - External Validation.

she made no demands on him
she stroked his ego
he liked her attention and her 'I love you's'

While it's possible that he had a hard time ending things because of his concerns over the impact to his job, it's more likely he didn't know how to go without the positive validation he was getting from the OW. To shield himself from the potential of having another A, he would need to work in IC to explore why he needs others to give him the ego stroking he was so drawn to, and how to feel better about himself so that he doesn't need to get those good feelings from others.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Phoenix519
♀ Member
Member # 26186
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

listeningclosely, the fsc and unexpected song...thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking time to read about my concerns and post a reply. This has been weighing very heavily on me for the past few days.

Finding SI has truly been a blessing for me...

thefsc: Your response hit home with me because you totally get my husbands point as well as mine, in that I don't feel my request is unreasonable. Thank you for your insight and for validating my feelings. It means a lot.

Listeningclosesly and unexpectedsong: I don't know if you guys could ever grasp what your contributions here on SI mean to us BS. When we don't understand and feel lost you throw us a life preserver and take the time to help us sort it all out.

My relationship with my FWS has always been one that is relaxed, where he's never had to jump through a million hoops to prove or say anything to me. In fact, since dday the this is only the second request I've made of him...the first being to tell the truth.

I am trying to sort through why this is so important to me, especially when I see that his efforts are enough. I hate the heaviness this has placed in my heart and that I don't understand fully yet and may never.

It's hard knowing someone else or something..a void..whatever it was..had that kind of power, to change him so completely and that he was more than willing to jump in and bend himself into something unrecognizable to those of us back in the real world.

Thanks to all of you..so much.

~Phoenix


Posts: 581 | Registered: Nov 2009
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Murphydog -

I guess what I am asking is does all of the above seem plausible? Or, is he trying to minimize to save my feelings...would a man really tell a woman he loves her (knowing he does not) to keep the game going?

Warning... stupid analogies abound here.

You have never tried to seduce anyone, right? Have you ever needed to convince someone of something, maybe to help out on a committee? Or you need a tech to fix your network drop really fast? You say a lot of nice things to someone to get something back.

The phrases that work for the committee are: you are so organized, you are dedicated, you work well with people. For the tech, it's: you're so good at fixing this, you have access to the cables. Etc., etc.

The currency for ego stroking and validation are: I love you, you're hot, you're wonderful.

But, to get the real thing... to work together on the committee, to work together on cabling the department, to be together for life... to be a partner instead of a customer... That exchange is completely different.

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 11:56 AM, January 8th (Friday)]


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Phoenix519
♀ Member
Member # 26186
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stupid analagies or not...I've just had a lightbulb moment.

Thanks again LC.


Posts: 581 | Registered: Nov 2009
momnurse4u
♀ Member
Member # 27010
Default  Posted: 8:50 PM, January 8th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((BaxtersBFF, UnexpectedSong, Listeningclosely)))))

Thank you for reading my terribly long post and responding! I appreciate it very much! It gave me alot of ideas!


ME-BW (37)
HIM-WH (38)(DieselGearHead)
M 8 YEARS together for 10
D-DAY 8/2/09
3 great girls-18, 5, 3
Thought R began 1/2010 but have since realized that not to be the case...I am still broken!


Posts: 91 | Registered: Dec 2009
Cecil2156
♀ Member
Member # 26445
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, January 9th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question: how long did your withdrawal from the affair last? Did your withdrawal coincide with the end of your fog?


Me: BW - 37
Him: XH - 40
DD - 6 years old
Married for 6 years, together for 15 years at D-Day
D-Day: 10/31/09
Filed for divorce: February 2010
Divorced: 4/11/11

Posts: 140 | Registered: Dec 2009
MelisssaZZZ
♀ Member
Member # 25953
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, January 11th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Antoher question and thanks again in advance!

I really feel that H hates me with all of his heart ... From what i understand from him - he started hating me around the time A started... And seems to me that he continues hating me know.. (he says he does not hate my as much now, but feels not empathy, sympathy)..

I know it does not mean anything good... But anyways - maybe you guys can think of why he would still hate me that much now..


Me BS - 37
WH 39
1 child - 4yrs
married 5 yrs, together 7
DD1 midmarch 09
DD2 early june 09
some more DD's of course - cannot bother to list
LTA (2 yrs) fully?? finished mid Aug 09
Status: Divorced Oct 2011

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: London, UK
MelisssaZZZ
♀ Member
Member # 25953
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, January 11th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Antoher question and thanks again in advance!

I really feel that H hates me with all of his heart ... From what i understand from him - he started hating me around the time A started... And seems to me that he continues hating me know.. (he says he does not hate my as much now, but feels not empathy, sympathy)..

I know it does not mean anything good... But anyways - maybe you guys can think of why he would still hate me that much now..


Me BS - 37
WH 39
1 child - 4yrs
married 5 yrs, together 7
DD1 midmarch 09
DD2 early june 09
some more DD's of course - cannot bother to list
LTA (2 yrs) fully?? finished mid Aug 09
Status: Divorced Oct 2011

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: London, UK
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