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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, February 10th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

sadscrant,

I don't think it is second nature for all WS's. What I have found is that the friendships with women prior to the EA got progressively more intimate (for lack of a better word). These prior friendships though were all known by my BW so weren't,never became EA's. Since the EA, I have intentionally avoided any close relationships/friendships that might have come up for fear of overstepping the boundaries. There is a fear that it could happen again but I don't want to go through that again or put my BW through that again.

A 4-5 year EA is a long time, but depending on the two involved, it could happen without progressing. If I had lived closer to OW, it may have gone PA, but it wasn't ever pushed by either me or OW.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6061 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
WheredoIgonow
♀ Member
Member # 27130
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, February 10th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honestly, how often do you think of the OW when making love to your wife? Both during the A - and now in recovery and after the A - how often? Was it more soon after the discovery and early in the R?

My husband says he doesn't but I just don't see how he cannot. Especially when he's doing something he did with the OW and had not previously done with his wife.

Thanks.


Me; BS (54)
Him: WS (56)
Married 29 years
DD-28, DS-26, DS-18, DS-16
OW#1 - PA - 4 1/2 years
OW#2 - EA/PA - 5 months
He thought she was his soulmate - was going to move out- confessed about OW#2 when asked. OW#1 revealed them.

Posts: 605 | Registered: Jan 2010
sadscrant
♀ Member
Member # 27459
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, February 10th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks BBFF! Both my WH and the women from the 4-5yr EA lived in same town, and met several times for drinks, dinner, lunch...etc That is a lot of time for something not to have happened?


Me BS 38
Him WS 37
Separated 12/16/09
Divorced 6/11

Posts: 210 | Registered: Feb 2010
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, February 11th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can WS explain how they felt it was "morally acceptable" to continue with AP while separated and now D. What does a WS tell themselves to make this all morally acceptable when it goes against all previous moral codes of the WS before the betrayal? Is the ego involved or just disconnection from the true self and inner core?

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
srb1608
♀ Member
Member # 19477
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, February 11th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i know you arent suppose to delete posts, but i decided i didnt want to know the answer to my very graphic question.
Also think it might make some BS's reading trigger and dont want to cause pain.

Mods, please forgive me!

[This message edited by srb1608 at 2:21 PM, February 11th (Thursday)]


BS- me 37
WS -him 37
Married 13 years

Posts: 2220 | Registered: May 2008
dignity
♀ Member
Member # 27471
Default  Posted: 9:23 PM, February 11th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For those of you who confessed, as opposed to being "found out": When you first said you felt bad/guilty for the pain you had caused... was it more about feeling guilty for having confessed, or feeling guilty for being unfaithful? Did you just wish you had let sleeping dogs lie?


Me: BS, 40
Him: WH, 48
Married 20 yrs
D-Day 2nd Feb '10
D-Day 2 (TT): 19 Feb (happy birthday to me!)
recurring ONSs with same OP (our SIL), over 3 yrs. Cuddling, kissing and EA in between.
2 DS: 16 and 12
Ongoing NC, MC, IC. Getting to R.

Posts: 621 | Registered: Feb 2010
manAscending
♂ Member
Member # 26919
Default  Posted: 10:17 PM, February 11th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@dignity

When you first said you felt bad/guilty for the pain you had caused... was it more about feeling guilty for having confessed, or feeling guilty for being unfaithful? Did you just wish you had let sleeping dogs lie?
I felt awful about the pain I caused, and because my actions were devastating to our family. That is what prompted me to confess. The feelings of guilt and devastation came before the confession, not the other way around.

Two reasons cemented my decision to confess: one came from religious conviction, and the other half came from a desire to be in a marriage where my wife and I shared authentic love (for lack of a better term). I felt that by not confessing, I was preventing her love for me from ever being authentic. If she ever again says to me "I love you," I know that it will be a genuine statement. This alone makes confessing worth it. And even though some days are really bleak, I don't regret it at all.

[This message edited by manAscending at 10:21 PM, February 11th (Thursday)]


Posts: 1648 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Ontario
Jekyll
♂ Member
Member # 10886
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, February 11th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WheredoIgonow -

I've been away for a little while, and came back to find your post. Fortunately, I have what I hope will be a reassuring response for you.

Honestly, how often do you think of the OW when making love to your wife? Both during the A - and now in recovery and after the A - how often? Was it more soon after the discovery and early in the R?

Honestly, never. And never have. I'll admit that during the A (before my BW found out) I avoided sex with my BW, so I can't say what I might have done in that situation. But since we started R, I haven't thought of the xOW while in bed with my BW at all. Hell, I think of her little enough outside of bed. So believe me, it is possible... I think it's part of coming out of the fog.

nlovemyfamily -

A response for you as well...

Can WS explain how they felt it was "morally acceptable" to continue with AP while separated and now D. What does a WS tell themselves to make this all morally acceptable when it goes against all previous moral codes of the WS before the betrayal? Is the ego involved or just disconnection from the true self and inner core?

My BW and I, thankfully, never got a D... we are happily R'ed and better than ever. But how did I find my A "morally acceptable" in the first place? The easy answer is... I didn't. I put aside all such considerations and just drowned myself in the "magic" (my BW and I hate that word now) of the A. I had previously engaged in an A with a married woman when I was single, and it was the same... it was "magical" and was, in my mind, entirely divorced from... well... everything. In both cases, I think there was a great disconnect going on inside me. I'm more connected to myself now. And to my wife.


Me: FWH
My beloved wife: hurtbs
DDay - April 2006
July 2006 onward - R'ing

"Every hill that's worth the climb will always be too steep."
- Wild Colonials


Posts: 1017 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: TX
Fallen
♀ Member
Member # 4313
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, February 12th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlove, I can't answer from a S or D perspective, but I can tell you that I was lost and disconnected from my moral center during the A.

I'd always been the kind of person who was very honest, and the A was something I could never have imagined myself doing. IMO, the WSes who are truly disconnected from their core values during the A are the ones who will make every effort to R. They recognize their poor decisions.


You can't heal what you won't feel.

"There would be no grand absolution, only forgiveness meted out in these precious sips. It would well up from his heart in spoonfuls, and he would feed it to me. And it would be enough."


Posts: 23475 | Registered: May 2004
Kwills
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Member # 13172
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, February 12th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When you first said you felt bad/guilty for the pain you had caused... was it more about feeling guilty for having confessed, or feeling guilty for being unfaithful? Did you just wish you had let sleeping dogs lie?

I could have gone on and NEVER confessed, it was my choice to do so because the guilt and confusion was eating me up. I'm a horrible liar and could NOT keep a secret of that magnitude. Letting sleeping dogs lie was not an option for ME.

Kwills


Posts: 1052 | Registered: Jan 2007
SouthernGal
♀ Member
Member # 27315
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, February 12th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I apologize if this gets long ...

I have a question for WSs. I am a BS, Dday was less than two months ago and the EA was over before I found out about it. We are working on reconciling our marriage (EA is far from the only problem we have).
I am trying to see things from my FWH’s perspective so I was hoping to get some honest feedback about my thoughts.
First let me say that I believe that the preponderance of evidence though his actions, reactions and statements up to this point show that he is truly remorseful and that his contrition is real.
The short story is that FWH looked up the profile of a former FB friend, who is a single female who is ‘flirty’ with him (even though as a typical man he doesn’t see it for what it is). She is not the OW. When I asked him why he looked up her profile after deleting her (and a bunch of other single female friends) as part of our reconciliation he answered me. Since I didn’t like his answer I kept pushing… maybe hoping to hear what I wanted to hear? When I pushed he got defensive and things got ugly and ended up with him sleeping (by his choice) in the guestroom. Earlier today I was angry with his defensiveness and convinced that it meant that our R is false and his remorse isn’t real. That feeling was validated by some other BSs on the forum.
But now I am trying to think of how I feel when we are having a disagreement and he throws out things I have done in the past that have damaged the trust between us, hurt him and hurt our marriage. I wonder, "OMG am I going to pay for that mistake forever???"
I'm not saying that I should just "forgive and forget" and pretend that it never happened (though at times I wish we both could do that). But I think I can see the frustration that a truly repentant FWS must feel when he or she is doing everything they can think of to do to reconcile and fix that which is broken. Only to have every word, every action and inaction viewed in the worst possible light and subjected to intense suspicion.
I'd like to say that I would react differently if I was in his shoes ... but if I am being honest I don't think I would.
He is trying to do everything he can to fix it. He is truly remorseful. And he does something that he doesn't even think of as a problem and a whole busload of anger gets dumped on him. Not only by me but by our daughter too (who unfortunately took it upon herself to interject into the conversation that our house was a home until he “f’ed it up.”). I think I can sort of see why he might be defensive. I probably would be, too.
Yes, he screwed up and he hurt me ... but does that give me the right to hurt him? It sometimes seems that we, the BS, feel a proprietary ownership of pain. As though our feelings are the only ones that matter and if our FWS hurts ... well they earned it.
Am I crazy to try to understand why he reacts as he does? Am I even close in my thoughts on why he might feel that he needs to be defensive? Can a FWS be defensive without that being an indication of further wrongdoing on their part?


BS (Me) XWH (him) M nearly 16 yrs
1 DD (teens)
D-day #1 12/09, #2 2/10
Divorced 10/6/10

Posts: 3862 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: The Deep (Fried) South
Very, very tired
♀ Member
Member # 26244
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, February 13th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My questions are kind of along the same lines as SouthernGals.

With tears in his eyes, my WH has said that he truly believes I will never get over the hurt. He says that he is tired of talking about the A's. He says he knows that I still have questions, but he doesn't know how many more questions he can take.

Question #1:
Is there anything that helped you, the WS, to believe that your spouse's hurt wouldn't be there forever?

Questions #2:
What is the best way to approach questions to meet both his needs and my needs?

My WH is doing a lot of self-blame right now. He says I am doing all of the right things, but that I deserve better, that I shouldn't believe in him, that he has nothing left to give...

Question #3:
What helped you to get through the self-blame part of being a WS?

Thanks for your help and your willingness to be so open with your experiences!

[This message edited by Very, very tired at 8:43 PM, February 13th (Saturday)]


BW (in the 40 yr old range)
2 kids
Happily married 20 years--or so I thought. Divorcing and finding a new life for myself. WooHoo!!!!!



Posts: 1917 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Somewhere North of Hell
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 9:58 PM, February 13th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Any WS on here that were involved in LTA affairs?
Could I private message you? I have a few questions specific to LTA's... Thanks


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
manAscending
♂ Member
Member # 26919
Default  Posted: 11:16 PM, February 13th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@SouthernGal

Am I crazy to try to understand why he reacts as he does? Am I even close in my thoughts on why he might feel that he needs to be defensive? Can a FWS be defensive without that being an indication of further wrongdoing on their part?
I think you answered your own question about why your WS is defensive when you sympathised with the frustration he is likely feeling. When I cheated on my wife, I destroyed every reason she had to trust me. Now, I am a much different person than I was a year ago, and I feel that I can be trusted. Of course, that doesn't mean that my BW is ready to give me the gift of trust again. Sometimes that frustrates me. Perhaps your WH feels the same way.

I'm not a psychologist, but if it's the case that your WH can relate, I will add that I don't think he feels the need to be defensive; rather, I bet his defensiveness is more irrational (simply meaning that it's a reaction that he doesn't choose to feel--he just does). If he is doing what he can to R, and his actions express remorse, then I doubt he would also purposively adopt a defensive stance.

It also may be the case that when your WH looked up the other women on Facebook and got caught, he became frustrated because he knew he was caught. Alternatively, he may have become frustrated because he broke a standard that he had set for himself. That's just a question I can't answer. I would encourage you to trust your heart.

Whatever the case, I applaud the insight of your post. You are not crazy for trying to understand the actions and reactions of your WH. You are doing a great service to your marriage just by attempting to see things from his point of view. Trying to understand him must be a seemingly overwhelming task at times, and I think I speak for many WS when I say that you are both kind and brave for the effort.


Posts: 1648 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Ontario
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 3:43 AM, February 14th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi SouthernGal,

You are doing so well trying to understand him. This is still your husband, it's rather important that you have a good feeling, a solid knowledge base of his inner workings. I'd even go so far as to say that that should go both ways, but perhaps it's a bit soon for that.

I think you're also right about defensiveness being the real problem. As manAscending said, it looks like that's his 'default' mode. Not good. For him, the focus should not be to avoid doing wrong, but to create a new way of dealing with the results. That goes especially for the little things in life, in fact they're great practice . If he can manage several points of attention at once, perhaps he could try to start observing you and matching his observations to your feelings and your actual behaviour.

You're not wrong. Keep going.

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 4:33 AM, February 14th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Very, very tired,

Question #1:
Is there anything that helped you, the WS, to believe that your spouse's hurt wouldn't be there forever?

Well, what helped me was the knowledge that nothing lasts forever. I still didn't feel like the darkness would ever end, but I could comfort myself like that. Eventually something would have to change. We, and you, will notice at some point that you're either unable to bear it or that you're past the worst and today is better than the day before.


Questions #2:
What is the best way to approach questions to meet both his needs and my needs?

Hmm, tough one. I know it's tough on him, but I strongly feel that your need to get answers comes before his need to have a break. On the other hand, you will not get good answers if your husband is at the end of his rope all the time. So. Perhaps take appointed times to talk about the affair, including any questions you have. Worked very well for us, daily at first, then at least three times a week, now 'as it comes'. We use the time just after the kids are gone to bed, but before we're all 'wound down' for the night. Some times I dread these talks, since I know they can be difficult. Same goes for my husband. But they haven't killed us yet. Apparently asking and answering is not lethal.

Question #3:
What helped you to get through the self-blame part of being a WS?

I'm not sure. It kind of waned at some point, while I was busy repairing the damage and fixing my flaws. In hindsight, my husband sees that I felt more guilt and shame in the weeks that I still kept secrets from him. That makes sense, but I can't quite recall it that way. Perhaps it just takes time, and energy directed at good and solid things, and experiences to help shove the guilt aside. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Thank you for caring so much, don't forget to take of yourself!

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, February 15th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

VVT,

1. Time. At first I thought that my BW would need to show me her anger, to let the hurt out, directed at me in order to believe that her hurt wouldn't be there forever. Now I know that she probably won't deal with it that way. But I know she is working on it in the way that she needs to, so that is all I can do.

2. I'm with leftoolate on this one. But my answer to #3 makes me feel that you should still come first for a bit.

3.

Question #3:
What helped you to get through the self-blame part of being a WS?

I'm not sure. It kind of waned at some point, while I was busy repairing the damage and fixing my flaws. In hindsight, my husband sees that I felt more guilt and shame in the weeks that I still kept secrets from him. That makes sense, but I can't quite recall it that way. Perhaps it just takes time, and energy directed at good and solid things, and experiences to help shove the guilt aside.

I kind of wanted to finally let go of the self blame too. But I didn't get there until two years after the D-day when I finally told BW about OW. For those two years I was in my fog and was not letting go of OW. I wonder if you WH has still not let the OW go. This is why I think you come first in regards to question #2. And by letting go, I mean letting go of the thoughts, the internal struggle. Self blame is a good tool to deflect answering questions truthfully. Don't know if this is the case with you and your WH, so just throwing this out there.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6061 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
dismantled
Member
Member # 26887
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, February 15th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Baxter, your answer to that last question kinda helps me too. I came here to ask about the same type of thing from WS’s who can hopefully help me sort out my thoughts.

Over a month ago, I told my WH that I had given a year post-dday for him to show me something and step up and he had not, so I needed for my own sake and mental health to step away and move out. He told me he wanted to finally fully disclose. He still has not. Initially he said he felt sick thinking of the things I still didn't know. That comment sort of ate into my brain for a few days until I brought it up again. He retracted and said that I knew everything he had only meant that he didn't want to revisit it all.

We talked again last night about why this has been put off so long and he says he can't remember anything. I asked a series of questions about his frame of mind, how he felt at the time etc. He couldn't recall. I thought asking about feelings would be easier. I have trouble remember specific dates and events also, but I certainly can remember what I felt when certain things happened. I thought that angle would help retrieve some information but it didn't. His answers did not add up at all. He says that part of the lack of recall is due to the remorse and extreme anger he has for himself for doing this to me and to us. He says he dwells a lot lately on the waste of it all. He hates himself for wasting almost three years of our lives for nothing. He is angry when he thinks of all we could be now if he had put all this enormous energy into our marriage rather than into lies, manipulations and another person.

All that is well and good, but as he goes waxing on and on about his self loathing and his guilt I sit there and realize that he didn't answer the question. The little information I got last night revealed several lies that I have believed for two years. I was trying to process what I was hearing and kept asking more and more just to make sense of this new information and he was getting increasingly irritable for having to repeat answers. I told him I just needed to make sense of it, and he would calm down and start quoting things he'd read here on SI from you and other WS's he's been talking to and he'd try to check his frustration to show me that he understands my need to know.

After two hours at it last night, I don't feel an ounce of satisfaction. It started as a result of reading the posts from Alone in Georgia and WH in Georgia. I asked him to just answer one question, could we revisit whether they had exchanged any gifts. He's always maintained a vehement "no!" on that one. But this time, I learn that they did. But they were little things, so it didn't seem important to him to bring it up. I'm so frustrated and confused. He makes me feel unreasonable for wanting to ask more than one question at a time, more than once a week. He makes me feel as if I'm never satisfied with what I get, and that for every answer I get, I ask 10 more questions. I try to explain that this is because his answers are non-answers. (Here's an example: "Well, I don't remember whether that actually happened but if it did I probably would've done a, b & c and told you that I was doing x, y & z." -- this, to my mind, is not an answer. It is a hypothetical imagining.) After I say that, then he points out that I told him 5 wks ago that I was done, so what does it matter to me anyway. Then he’ll say that he’s still doing all the other transparency things in spite of the fact that I give him no hope of R, and that he probably shouldn’t even bother. In the same breath he’ll tell me that he’s not giving up and he’s going to keep fighting for “us”. He makes no sense at all.

At this point, do I just stop even listening? Five weeks ago, I told him I didn't want to hear anymore and it was too little too late. He seemed so sincere and so upset that I agreed to hear him out whenever he was ready. Now I feel stupid for wasting hours of sitting there listening to what seems like a lot of bullshit that I only agreed to do for him because he said he needed to disclose to help ease his guilt and heal his demons. He is doing everything else by the book, from openness, to transparency, to affection and patience and empathy in every other arena of our lives. How do I handle this?


Me-BW
Dday: 1-24-08, Two years of false R and Dday after Dday after Dday after Dday ever since...

It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere.
-- Agnes Repplier


Posts: 216 | Registered: Dec 2009
Very, very tired
♀ Member
Member # 26244
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, February 15th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Left and Baxter! Your responses really help!


BW (in the 40 yr old range)
2 kids
Happily married 20 years--or so I thought. Divorcing and finding a new life for myself. WooHoo!!!!!



Posts: 1917 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Somewhere North of Hell
luvedmypbear
♀ Member
Member # 25690
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, February 16th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question for you, WSs......

Please help me to understand this comment made my FWH shortly after I discovered the A, which had ended (PA had ended 2 yrs prior to discovery, online chats had been over for a few weeks because she told him she loved him and he wasn't feeling that way)......

He was deeply depressed and drinking heavily during the A. I asked him why he lied to me and went to see her again after the first encounter, rather than coming home, confessing to a ONS and dealing with it as husband and wife. He said that she made him feel "alive" for the first time in a long time.

7 months after those words were spoken, after I read all of the email correspondence and know he didn't have an emotional attachment, this is what stays with me.

What does, "she made me feel alive" mean?

Does this mean they were truly meant to be and I need to step aside?

I have never been made to feel alive by anyone before, I feel enthused for life everyday from within. I cannot imagine feeling this way about anyone.

If you can relate to his words, please help me. I am so stuck and wanting to heal.

Thanks in advance for taking the time.

[This message edited by luvedmypbear at 6:22 PM, February 16th (Tuesday)]


D-Day July 14, 2009
3 kids (B7, G6, B2)
BW, 37
D and healing, one day at a time

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