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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 4
SerJR
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Member # 14993
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, January 30th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Same ol same ol..simple response maybe half the marraige problems but you screwing with someone else was all you..I dont remember you asking if it was Ok.

Sounds like she doesn't want to get the point. You've used this response a few times and I think it's now at a point where she can use it as a way to stay angry with you (because you're so argumentative ).

Perhaps you may want to try "Yeah... I often wonder what it is that you're so angry about" or "I'm sorry you feel that way." It's not as in your face as arguing logic with her - it will close the conversation and let you walk away from it with her wondering what you meant.

[This message edited by SerJR at 8:54 AM, January 30th (Saturday)]


Me: BH - Happily remarried.
Hope is never lost. It exists within you - it is real. It is not a force in and of itself - it is something that you create with every thought, action, and choice you make. It is a gift that you create for yourself.

Posts: 17093 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Further North than South
roadscholar
Member
Member # 23276
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, January 30th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guess it's about time I join this thread...been following it since I joined SI nearly a year ago. Amazed at the wisdom here.

My WW and I had been in real-R since Aug.
It started out great, but slowly went downhill. Then two weeks ago, while I was away on a trip to the US (I'm American, but live in Denmark)....my WW ran into her OM in a shopping mall.

I'll probably never know if it really was a coincidence....but she admitted that she saw him first and approached him...and they talked. After almost 6 months NC, it was a hammer-blow to the head.
I told her without hesitation that I was divorcing her, end of story. She didn't flinch....I'm sure she was on the verge of wanting to give up anyway.

She's moving into her own apartment sometime in March. We're going to both be here at home until then, for a variety of reasons.
Not sure how I feel at this point. One minute I'm relieved and ready to move on. The next, I'm overwhelmed with sadness, and thoughts of not wanting to give up yet.
It's been a long and tortuous 12 months since D-Day, and I'm beginning to think that I'll never reach a point of being sure that it's time to let go. (together for 20 years...and being divorced leaves me trapped in a foreign country...no way I'm living away from my kids)
Anyway...look forward to hearing some of your thoughts.


Me-BH, 45
Her-XWW, 40
2 boys- 11 & 14
D-Day- 2-14-09
Several attempts at R, all of which failed.
Divorce final on 11/23/10
"Life's Been Good To Me So Far..." Joe Walsh

Posts: 182 | Registered: Mar 2009
Low man
♂ Member
Member # 26141
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, January 31st (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Roadscholar, Sometimes the R can go backwards. I hope that you can find peace in which ever direction you go.
My FWW has never yet committed to R and because of TT even what we have seems to be going backwards.
I had a really bad day earlier this week and then more trickle truths came out after that to really send me downhill.
I tried talking to her about it but she became defensive. I asked her why when I asked for location details earlier she omitted 1 and wasn't specific with information about another. She said it was because she couldn't. She then got upset. When I said she had no right to be upset, she told me she had every right to get upset and mad. I am at about as low a spot as I have been since DDay. That doesn't even take into consideration subsequennt info she has revealed since. It would have been so much better if I would have had all the information at one time so I could process it.
I don't really know where I am going from here.


D-Day Aug 09
BS 52
FWW 49
3 yr LTA

Posts: 58 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: midwest
SourCherryDrops
♂ Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 3:17 AM, February 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Roadschollar,

I understand exactly how you feel about seperating from your W, Being faced with the choice between staying in a foreign country or going home and leaving your kids there.

In the first few days after i discovered my wifes affairs i even went so far as to contact our embassy and find out what would happen if i just got on a plane with them and went home.....not a good idea it turns out.

I hope that your fluent in both spoken and written danish. Where i live i can speak and read the language but i cannot really write.... im lucky to work in a field where english is almost the standard language, but my advancement chances are nothing like they would be in an english speaking country.... That was a decision i made when we decided tho return here.

sometimes i cant believe that i agreed to come here. Before we even emigrated she was having doubts about our marriage. If i had said No then she also could not have removed our kids from my home country....

I have also told my wife that broken NC is a deal breaker for me. I hope that if she did see one of her OM while out and about that she would turn around and walk the other way....but who really knows....if weve just had an argument or if she's been feeling really down....I want to believe that she would do the right thing and ignore them, but Im not really sure that she would. Even though i do believe that at the moment she wants to be 100% commited to our marriage.

Perhapes you could share with us how it started going down hill? What were the sticking points....what were the hurdles that seemed insurmountable.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, February 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

roadscholar and sourcherrydrops.

BTDT. After 10 years me WW thought it was ok to see OM again. They were long time *friends* before the PA started. How much of the *friends* time was really EA I will never know. Some things are just unknowable. So WW flew out to visit *girlfriends* and disappeared for about 2 days. Exactly as she did during her A. Same pattern.

I think having a WW must be like being married to a alcoholic. That urge or desire never goes away for them. As soon as they relax they just fall back into old patterns and start the hook ups again.

Some of our WW NEVER get it. They will blame us for they choices until they die. It will allways be our fault. No matter what any one says.

Some just learn the right words to say. They will agree and *say* it was they fault. But thru actions you can tell the truth of what they think. AND they will never follow thru and do the work needed to repair they selfs and the M. So we are left swinging in the breeze. Left to either make the best we can of the M on our own. Or to leave (and be the bad guy).

We are all left with choices. Allot of us stay in the M because of kids. Or religious beliefs. Or finances. Or allot of other reasons. I think this is probably the harder path. Not that D is any much easier.

We are stuck with choosing between 2 tuff paths. Neither one is good. This is really shit. We didnt choose to be here yet we are stuck with the difficult paths to follow. We didnt get the *fun* of A and yet we are the ones that have to pay for it in the end.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, February 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think having a WW must be like being married to a alcoholic.

or you can get the shit sandwich royale w/cheese, an alcoholic WW like mine


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
roadscholar
Member
Member # 23276
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, February 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Low Man-
Sorry you're dealing with trickle truth. You're around the 6-month mark and you say your WW hasn't yet committed to R. Do you have an idea of how long you'll be able to give her to commit? Hope things improve for you soon.

SourCherryDrops-
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, language-wise....I speak and read danish ok, but not great at writing it. I've been a professional musician all the years I've been living here. I've always made a good living, but it will be difficult now. I'll have my sons every other week, so I can't be on the road, or even playing locally during those weeks. I'll have to have at least a part-time day job.
I also considered taking the boys and hauling ass to Texas right after D-Day. But I pretty much knew that it would be a bad idea.
We were living in Texas from '05 to '07. In early-'06 we went through a rough time, and talked about divorcing. I just didn't have it in me to divorce her there, knowing that she'd be divorced from me and stuck there. So I once again agreed that we would move back to Denmark, to save our M. (common theme of the past two decades) She began sharpening the knife that would eventually end up in my back within days of us moving back here in '07. (Emails to an old boyfriend. That's not who she ended up having the A with, but she was working herself up)

This is getting long, so I'll continue in another post shortly.


Me-BH, 45
Her-XWW, 40
2 boys- 11 & 14
D-Day- 2-14-09
Several attempts at R, all of which failed.
Divorce final on 11/23/10
"Life's Been Good To Me So Far..." Joe Walsh

Posts: 182 | Registered: Mar 2009
roadscholar
Member
Member # 23276
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, February 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To elaborate on how things went downhill in R, I need to give some background info.
The path that we took to eventually end up in R was unique, to say the least. In June, we gave up and signed legal separation papers. She was pining for OM non-stop. I wasn't ready to give up, but she was. So it was over....full-speed ahead to D. She went back to OM before the ink was dry on the papers.
I went on the road in July. I'm a singer/guitar player....free to do whatever I wanted for the first time in 20 years. Not hard to guess how that went. Partied like the Stones, and yes, I shagged a few girls. Don't regret it one bit and make absolutely no apologies for it.
In late-July we went on vacation to the US. We had bought the tickets months earlier, and decided that it was best for the boys to take the trip as a family and tell them that we were divorcing after the trip.
While we were visiting my parents in Texas, my WW found out what I'd been up to by taking my phone in the middle of the night and reading my text messages. It hit her like a train. She woke me up, and I watched her lay in my parent's kitchen floor curled up in a ball, crying like a baby.
I didn't comfort her one bit. I did make her go out in the garage and sit in my mother's van, to avoid waking everyone up with her sobs.
Long story short....she realized she didn't want to lose me after all, wanted very badly to save the marriage. She threw the OM under the bus immediately after we returned to Denmark 3 days later. We started having sex again, and it was non-stop for about 3 weeks. The month of Aug was absolutely fantastic.
But things gradually deteriorated from Sept-Oct, and by Nov we were both miserable.
The sex stopped almost completely after that first month.
There was still very little remorse from her. No acknowledgement at all that she has issues inside that need fixing. Still wanting to place the blame for her A on the fact that I was away from home so much and that I wasn't a very good husband or father.
She wanted me to completely stop playing music. I refused....mostly because we needed the money, but also because I felt I needed to stand my ground a bit. But I agreed to cut WAY back.....to only 3 or 4 nights a month, all local. (used to play 20-25 nights a month)
She was reluctant to go to MC. We went twice in May, but when her family of origin stuff started coming up, that was the end of that. (she was sexually abused by her brother when she was a child...she's only talked about it to me twice in 20 years)

So, there it is. One royal fucking mess.

Razor-
I hear ya.
I'm beginning to think that my WW baited me into saying I want a divorce by talking to OM two weeks ago. I guess she thinks that since I'm the one who said those words, she's in the clear.
But in a week, or a month, or a few months she'll end up with that piece of shit....and in the end the fact will still be that she left me for another man, end of story.

Maybe she did me a favor, because I probably would have stuck around forever, being miserable inside....to prevent putting my boys through what they're about to go through.


Me-BH, 45
Her-XWW, 40
2 boys- 11 & 14
D-Day- 2-14-09
Several attempts at R, all of which failed.
Divorce final on 11/23/10
"Life's Been Good To Me So Far..." Joe Walsh

Posts: 182 | Registered: Mar 2009
SourCherryDrops
♂ Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 7:21 AM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Man its hard to hear other peoples stories, Sometimes it makes me think god im lucky i only have to deal with what i got.....then i think how fucking stupid that sounds...

I really cannot imagine how hard it must be to deal with a WW that is openly showing they miss the OM...(I dunno if mine is a little or not, she wouldnt tell me even if she is) I can only barely begin to imagine what its like when your WW is flip-flopping around about just what it is that they really want.

However If your WW clearly has FOO issues or other problems that contributed to her choice to have an A rather than deal with the marital problems in a constructive way, and she refuses to deal with thos issues...then i think its clear that there is no guarantee that she wouldnt repeat that behaviour in the future.

Its with that thought that Ive promised myself to undertake an as impartial review of our R process as possible at the 6mth mark....at the moment i get the feeling that my wife does want to R but she doesnt seem to be able to put in anything more than the absolute minimum effort....

The only real advice i can offer is to be clear that what your deciding is the best decision for you and your future bassed on the current facts. Are you adamant that you want the D...is it still possible for you to try R again or was the broken NC a real dealbreaker.

As for her baiting you into requesting the D.... you may well be right, especially if shes been unable to decide for herself what she wants....shes effectively forcing you to make the decision for her. and that also allows her to internalise that its still not her fault and all the blame lies with you.

mmmph ive got an MC session tonight, maybe im just projection my bitterness....


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor

That was so on point it is scary. My wife is just starting IC two plus years out but acts like the same entitled cheating liar she ALWAYS has been.

I say you have to LET GO. it is the ONLY thing you can do. I am not syaing stay or leave but do what YOU want to do and do not allow your wife to judge your actions anymore. Look they are not very good at this with cheating at all you know so I always have to ask myself why do I give her so mucyh power?

I dont anymore she can do her yell blameshift I believe in myself and do not need her approval.

I have taken the M question just off my mind for now and as hard as it is I can accept M as long as I can defend and raise my kids or freedom if I D but loike I said THAT is no longer the question.

The question is 100% me and what I WANT. That si really all that matters now. She had her time and the way my wifes mind is what I do will be NEVER good enough. Well you know what all i have done tried is good enough for me! I gave my herat and sould and now I am taking them back.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
betrayed1012
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Member # 26112
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

think having a WW must be like being married to a alcoholic.

They are very much alike. The denial, the blameshifting, refusal to take responsibility,etc are all the same. I know because my WW is an alcoholic. She hooked up with a guy she met in detox. The same skills she used to hide her drinking from me came in handy when hiding the A. It didn't last long as two alcoholics at the same stage of the recovery shouldn't count on one another to keep them sober, no matter how much of a "special bond" they think the have. They relapsed together and the A was found out.

Both the alcoholic and the cheater share addictive behaviors. The difference is the alcoholic will always be an alcoholic as it is a disease. The cheater can chose to change, although difficult. They don't develop both emotional and physical dependancy the alcoholic does, only emotional.


BS 52
WW 41
Dday 10/12/09
Filed Divorce Complaint 2/1/10
Together 18 year
M 14 years
Children: 11 & 7

Divorced 10/14/10


Posts: 1010 | Registered: Nov 2009
roadscholar
Member
Member # 23276
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SCD,
To say that I had to deal with my WW openly missing the OM, is an understatement.

In Feb, four days after D-Day....she broke it off with him for the first of FIVE times between Feb and Aug. When she came home from work that day, she walked straight to the couch, laid down, and stared at the wall. Wouldn't respond at all....just stared at the wall in silence. I had to take the boys and leave for a couple of hours.

In May, when we were supposedly in R...she came home from work one day and told me that she missed him so bad, that she was considering getting her best friend to accompany her somewhere that she could observe him from a distance without him knowing. I'm dead fucking serious.

I am beginning to believe that D is the best choice right now for me and my future. I just don't believe it's best for our boys. I can't say with 100% certainty that the broken NC is a true deal-breaker for me, since I'm not positive that D is what I want. But there's not a chance in hell I would try to talk her back into R right now....she's making it very clear that she wants to move forward with the D.
We've been together since she was 16 years old. Throughout this whole process she has talked about wanting to move out and get her own place, and be on her own for the first time. She's gonna get that chance now. I guess at this point I'm just done with trying to stand in the way of what she says she wants....and finished trying to make her want this marriage. I still love her...but I've just got nothing left in the tank at this point.


Me-BH, 45
Her-XWW, 40
2 boys- 11 & 14
D-Day- 2-14-09
Several attempts at R, all of which failed.
Divorce final on 11/23/10
"Life's Been Good To Me So Far..." Joe Walsh

Posts: 182 | Registered: Mar 2009
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Both the alcoholic and the cheater share addictive behaviors. The difference is the alcoholic will always be an alcoholic as it is a disease. The cheater can chose to change, although difficult. They don't develop both emotional and physical dependancy the alcoholic does, only emotional.

May be it is sort of a addictive personality type. I have read that some personality types are prone to addiction. Not just alcohol. But drugs or gambling or any type of behavior. It has been many years since I have read this so the details are scant in me mind.

I use this reference because I believe that cheaters will allways have a weakness in this direction. Sort of a coping mechanism. Like a alcoholic who turns to drink when troubles arise. Cheaters have A when troubles arise. Sort of a way of coping.

Not just unhealthy coping. But also a weakness in this area. Cheaters will allways have a weakness toward A. Drinkers will allways have a weakness toward alcohol. Drug abusers toward drugs. Gamblers for gambling. Smokers for cigarettes.

IMHO it is possible for them to stop this bad coping for a time. But the urge will allways be there. And if caught in a unguarded moment of stress they can easily revert to their past behaviors.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
roadscholar
Member
Member # 23276
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor-
I think you're right. With cheaters, that weakness is always there.
In my WW's case, she's always had an insatiable need for male attention and validation. Way too flirtatious. Always had male friends who adored her.
I guess in hindsight I should have seen it coming.


Me-BH, 45
Her-XWW, 40
2 boys- 11 & 14
D-Day- 2-14-09
Several attempts at R, all of which failed.
Divorce final on 11/23/10
"Life's Been Good To Me So Far..." Joe Walsh

Posts: 182 | Registered: Mar 2009
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The part that allowed the affair to happen in many ways and is so hard to accept is it many ways it had NOTHING to do with you. When I look back I may have detach (shit I didnt knwo my W was sucking dicks in parking lots) but man all I gave the kind words, the desire, the romance, the effort i put in and almost any HEALTHY woman would have been totally smitten with me. Some people (as this is in many ways not gender specific) can have an epiphany on D - day. Is that not we all wish for? My wife did and it lasted a whole two weeks and she was back to her wyas. Some work extensively in IC and their core does change. look at wincing wives posts. And some go back to camouflaging and running as they have their whole life. It sucks but for many of us our women are who they are and they lack the strength to change.

This kinda leads to my second point. Unles syou make consequnces for these actions they are NEVER going to stop. I hate that basically often these women we are with are stuck with a teenage mentality where whinning and bitching .... it WORKS.

I am two plus years out and my wife is fundamentally the same as she was when she cheated. I now accept that and man that was a bitter pill to swallow.

But what I have learned is I have control over me! I am in some ways happier about myself, my accomplishments, and treat myself BETTER than I ever had because I deserve it.

Has any of this made the M better? NO. You have to expect when you hand over power (which to me is our failing) and take it back of course it is going to get worse. It is not going to go from affair turmoil to peace. It is going to go turmoil WW III and then peace either via a REAL reconcilation where our wives become decent partners of peacxe through divorce.

You have to let and go of the fact you cannot control whether the M makes it or anynbody else. I pray for us all to focus on ourselves our wants and our needs and not tolerate any BS.

Strength to you my brothers!


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you're right. With cheaters, that weakness is always there.
In my WW's case, she's always had an insatiable need for male attention and validation. Way too flirtatious. Always had male friends who adored her.
I guess in hindsight I should have seen it coming.

damn near exactly how I feel-funny how cheating women all read from the same book. Of course they are all "just friends"....

what really kills me is the fact she pressured me for years to marry her, & then she wants to keep dating.
WTF???!!


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
SerJR
♂ Member
Member # 14993
Default  Posted: 7:41 PM, February 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what really kills me is the fact she pressured me for years to marry her, & then she wants to keep dating.

I think you'll find a lot of BH's have dealt with that. I think it stems from unrealistic expectations of marriage/life. Up until that point, there is a solid goal in mind, for example - a fantastic fairytale wedding. Then buying a house. After that, it's having children that becomes the goal. After that, well... you gotta deal with bills, shitty diapers, job, etc. I think that what happens is that once they achieve all of their goals and are left to deal with plain ol' life, they have difficulty as they were expecting these goals to just magically fulfill them without further effort. Of course, it doesn't work that way. Not wanting to introspect, they'll find it easier to blame the marriage for their discontent and, thinking that they won't get anymore out of it (without trying to put more into it) they feel they need to focus outside the marriage to achieve even more validation.


Me: BH - Happily remarried.
Hope is never lost. It exists within you - it is real. It is not a force in and of itself - it is something that you create with every thought, action, and choice you make. It is a gift that you create for yourself.

Posts: 17093 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Further North than South
lostcause111
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Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, February 3rd (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SerJr. Your post is scary accurate.

Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, February 3rd (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree SERJR-one of WW's common expressions is "momma made it look so easy"-balancing a full time job & 2 kids. I knew it would be hard, she thought it would be easy.

so why do I have to pay for her delusions?


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, February 3rd (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

so why do I have to pay for her delusions?

Because M is a partnership dont you know.

They get to have delusions. We get to pay for them.

They get to have the A. We get to pay for that also.

They get a gold mine. We get the shaft.

See? Its a partnership. It all balances out.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
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