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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 4
TimMe
♂ Member
Member # 25220
Default  Posted: 10:04 PM, March 23rd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wildturkey

Hi Gentlemen! I haven't been around for a few years, but for some reason decided to log on, and this thread jumped out at me.

Hi WT- glad you joined the discussion.......it's been a good one.

After years of MC and IC (still in), I finally came to my decision to D. My final realization was was pretty much exactly what WAL has said.

I'm sorry to hear that WT, but I'm sure you thought long and hard before coming to that decision. Without both being committed, it's essentially nothing but angst and frustration.

I didn't see the effort put into trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with her that I saw her put into the A. Most of the angst was her insecurity about the future.

A future that was sorely damaged by her choice.When someone demonstrates sincere remorse with total acknowledgement of their actions, there should only be the question of forgiveness and healing. It's no easy task, but many choose to talk themselves out of any possible reconciliation and refuse to look at themselves. I know one thing that applies to me.....when I "know" I did something wrong, I always have felt it and even if I was too proud (or ashamed) to apologize, I felt badly. If you don't feel badly about doing wrong to a person, then quite simply it cannot be taught. Compassion can be enhanced with some introspection, but without another's firm and innate sense of right and wrong. it's like you're banging your head against the wall. I guess you can call that integrity and it seems rare these days.


I finally decided that I needed to D. Her need for outside validation is really a bottomless pit. It's an itch that can never be scratched. So rather than limp along with "good enough" until she blames the lousy M on me, I just made the decision to throw in the towel.

Again, I know it sucks WT, but when you've had enough, your gut tells you so. I'm sure she'll never fill up that pit because she doesn't realize that she has to do that herself. People that are secure and relatively healthy wil always look at their partner as being a complement to themselves and the relationship and NOT as a way to fill to their voids.

Good to see some familiar people here again .

Ditto!

Much strength to you WT.


What is moral is what you feel good after.

Ernest Hemingway


Posts: 253 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: NH
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dont know why the automatic response to a BS deciding to D is allways *Im sorry*.

If you have done you best to R with you WW. Explored every possible avenue that might lead to forgiveness. Whereas you WW has never put in the effort. Never expressed remorse. And continues to blame every factor real or imagined under this or any Sun. Well. I think you are left with no choice.

Some WW just have not the ability to feel empathy or have remorse. In they life it has allways been about them and their needs. Every thing and every one else is trumped by this. There is no hope of R because they are just to broken.

I saw a thread in Wayward Forum the other day where it was said that the M was the disease and the A was the symptom. But I say if this is true and M is like a disease then D is the cure.

To forgive our WW they must be forgivable. Otherwise forgiving is a form of self abuse.

D shouldnt be a knee jerk reaction thing. And I dont think it would be for any of us. In addition to walking away from a M and a very long term relationship with a shared history. Kids are a big consideration. If they are young we have to consider tuffing it out so we dont loose them in custody. Then there are financial concerns of course since the court system rarely is fair in this.

But once we reach the decision thru due deliberation may be the proper response would be some thing like *well. you have done you best with it. so now you can move on with a new and better life.* Allmost a *congratulations* sort of thing. Or a *to bad for you WW*.

But *sorry* for us? I dont think so. Walking away from a toxic M is like getting cured of cancer. If some one is cured of this you dont say *Im sorry*. Instead you say *thats great. congratulations*.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd go further and say that there's nothing wrong with divorcing a truly remorseful WS, even if children are in mix.

Infidelity is a form of severe abuse. To me it's a crime right up there with physical abuse and rape. Many people say it's worse than rape. It's ludicrous to expect that the BS should feel some moral responsibility to try and reconcile with the perpetrator of that heinous crime. You can forgive, but that doesn't mean you have to devote your life to the person.

Obviously a trigger point for me; sorry if I came on strong.


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
Jimi40
♂ Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 11:54 AM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have to agree with Razor, sometimes divorce isn't a bad thing.

There are a lot of divorces that aren't even spawned from infidelity, just two people who shouldn't be married.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Just Crushed
♂ Member
Member # 24852
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor...I hear everything you are saying.

Your comment about the response "I'm Sorry" got me thinking. I just made that exact comment on a not-too-close friends fb page after she announced her D. Many of her closer friends said congrats. I thought to myself...whoops, maybe congrats was in order (however, I don't know her sitch). However, when I said "I'm sorry" it was b/c I was sorry that the relationship ended in D. I wasn't blaming anyone, just a general expression of "that must have been painful and I'm sorry you suffered."

Kinda rambled there, but IMO, I think that's how most ppl mean it in response to D.

Be good

[This message edited by Just Crushed at 12:00 PM, March 24th (Wednesday)]


BH
*details in Profile*

Posts: 843 | Registered: Jul 2009
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OnceInALifetime.

Infidelity IS abuse. And yet if a woman divorces her H because he beats her people rarely say *Im sorry*.

JustCrushed.

I know this phrase is a normal response to news like this. Even when you have tried all you can and because the WW just has no empathy or remorse to give because they are broken and empty. It is a relationship that had promise initially that is ending. And in many ways thats sad. And so comes *Im sorry*. I get that.

But I want to turn away from that regret over things that didnt work out. I did me best. And I needed some thing from me WW that she just did not possess and thereby could not give. So YES I am sorry she could not give what I needed to heal. But with the decision (which I still vacillate over) I feel a sense of relief. Like new vistas opening up for me. The world is full of possibilities again. So I dont want to linger in regret of what could not be. And focus instead on what may lie ahead.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor,

I understand how the "I'm sorry" phrase could irk you. My pet peeve is how so many seem to think that a remorseful spouse automatically merits an attempt at R. "Oh, I'm sorry that I pissed all over our marriage and our family by cheating on you over and over. Now, because I'm sorry, do the Christian thing and live with me for the rest of your life."

I'm not buying.

ETA: and in NO way am I suggesting that you feel that remorse merits automatic R attempt; I just trigger on this one constantly.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 1:33 PM, March 24th (Wednesday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
TwiceTorn
♂ Member
Member # 13895
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

While Divorce might be viewed as a way of seeing great new vistas opening up. The Divorce process with a lack of empathy WW gets real ugly real quick. In their minds they have already justified the A's, and now they are gunna punish you to the fullest extent of the law. Sadly the law is on their side on many of this, because of no fault laws. Your home, everything you worked for gets pillaged. OUr whole life gets thrown in a blender and we just get to pick up a few pieces to live on with. Part of it is entitlement, part is revenge because of the divorce.

Even after the divorce we are left to ourself's, picking up pieces to make life workable. Worse yet, friends, family just don't understand the pure hell we went through. Its something someone would only understand if they went through it themselves. Our real life support system is no longer able to deal with it, we are left alone on our own. Being that we are men, we are supposed to deal with it ourselves.

There is no easy way out, it sucks anyway you look at it.


You've got to trust your instinct
And let go of regret
You've got to bet on yourself now star
'Cause that's your best bet~311 All mixed up


Posts: 3597 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Minnesota
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:40 PM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OnceInALifetime.

I get it. Remorse alone is not enuf. Just saying *o gosh I made a MISTAKE sorry sorry sorry. now you have to forgive me.* This is just pig shit.

And having remorse and wanting to R may not be giving you what you NEED.

In the end of the day cheating itself is enuf of a deal breaker. I kinda think that may be it should be a automatic divorce with the BS getting all the finances and the WS left to go to the OP. Then if the WS wants to do the work and EARN forgiveness then may be a re marriage might be considered.

Forgiving with out it being earned is just stupid.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TwiceTorn.

Yeh. I get that. And me WW fall into that category. Angry and no remorse with no empathy. She has promised (in years past when we came to the edge of D) to follow the path of *scorched earth*. So it is going to get more than ugly. And this is definitely a consideration.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with you completely OnceInaLifetime.

I personally think that the only just and appropriate response to infidelity is divorce -- in all cases. Remorse, amends and doing the sorts of work to prevent future infidelity can all be weighed as mitigating factors to offer grace (i.e., the chance to R) to the WS, but the just response is always divorce.

(I didn't divorce, btw, and I'm thrilled that I'm still married after a long, rocky start. But if I'm advising a buddy tomorrow who just found out his wife cheated on him, in 100% of cases, I'll advise him to divorce first and ask questions later.)

I think we spend a great deal of time saying that infidelity is a dealbreaker, but too often, we treat people who choose that option -- especially with a remorseful spouse -- as though there's something wrong with them: they're bitter or unforgiving or some other bullshit.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, March 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the I'm sorry comes into play when someone tries to R for a while, and can't do it for whatever reason, be it an unremorseful spouse, or just a decision that it is a dealbreaker.

When you try to R, the assumption is that you want to R. It could just be sorry for wasting your time. I know when I say it, it's not always sorry that the marriage is ending, but sorry for the process you're going to have to go through


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35367 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, March 25th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can blame no one for D at all in any circumstances after being betrayed.

Lack of remorse does make it easier for sure.

It is abuse plain and simple but often what I see is this.

Their is other abuse going on by the WW. Comments, anger, witholding affection.

Then the man is sitting their as defender of the family trying to survive and VERY fearful of losing the children. A load of guilt gets put on us about that and how we may get screwed in the process.

But what I have found is this. If you decide to stay post d-day because of the kids DO NOT tolerate the outside affair abuse.

I often feel we gave our wives are balls and after d-day we still let them have them.

Take them back. Say something when you are disrespected EVERYTIME. Do you need to yell be an asshole no not at all. But it is very bad for the kids to see dad be a punching bag.

And in the end our wives are not giving us what we need often so if she is upset that your are standing and saying something i say GOOD. She desreves to be mad ... at herself. And in the end it is just bitching. Not like you are getting the love you want anyways. Bitching is just bitching. She already did just about the worse she could do to you. It is just bitching.

What this will do? You will gain back your self respect and she may even respect you again. Of she is not capable of change she will leave.

You need to push the dynamic to really know what to do and stand strong.

She will comply and maybe you can make something out of the scorched house ... never the same but better for you and the kids.

And if not you will not be abused day after day again something no kids should see.

You have to risk being a man again leading and changing the dynamic because all you can control is you and you MUST change. She is free to do as she wishes but you are on yoiur path ane being yourself again.

I think the biggest mistake we all make is trying to make the M better. Make you better and see what happens. You will be happy again D or not if you are yourself again.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, March 25th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lostcause.

You have to risk being a man again leading and changing the dynamic because all you can control is you and you MUST change. She is free to do as she wishes but you are on yoiur path ane being yourself again.

I think the biggest mistake we all make is trying to make the M better. Make you better and see what happens. You will be happy again D or not if you are yourself again.

Great advice.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Just Crushed
♂ Member
Member # 24852
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, March 25th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nice post LC...right on the mark, especially with the quote Razor highlighted. It's taken me awhile to reach that point. It took the "rage stage" for me to get there (been in rage stage for a few months now...lol, self-empowering). Every sitch is different and I don't think all men have to "change" per se, however, I do believe that taking a good inventory of yourself and an objective look at how you act and behave towards your W, family and friends is in order. DO NOT be the punching bag and DO NOT take the abuse. I have for way too long. LOL...and WW wonders why I wasn't meeting her emotional needs...b/c you've been a complete bitch for 5 years. On the other side, treat your W and family how you would want to be treated. Be the best you can be for YOU and your family. If that entails big changes...so be it.

I am making changes and I am assessing the type of man I want to be. The man I want to be is not too far from the man I am, but I can definitely improve . Personally, I'm not going to take being disrespected (aka "bitched at") and I'm not going to treat my W disrespectfully either. I assume honest communication would be tremendously helpful in eliminating these problems (assuming b/c there really hasn't been a lot of that in my relationship for some time).

The bottom line is, make changes if they help you, but there may have not been anything wrong with you in the first place. Most often the WS/WW is broken...not you the BS/BH.


BH
*details in Profile*

Posts: 843 | Registered: Jul 2009
Ethelred
♂ Member
Member # 23332
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, March 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am definitely in the "improve myself" mode right now.

I moved out in January and am living about 10 minutes away from my wife and kids. My WW has declared that she wants to live apart for a year, and does not want to work on the marriage this year.

She claims she wants our family to be "whole" and that she wants to "work on our relationship" next year. I'm not sure if that means next year January 1, next year March or next year to-be-determined.

WW says she needs our time living apart for "healing". She says she is enjoying the time apart. We have had a lot of disputes in our marriage, mainly over parenting, so there is room to understand to a certain extent "taking a break". She claims to have stopped cybersex, but I have no proof, and she has not given full disclosure. I am not monitoring her, partly because my lawyer told me it's illegal in my state, and partly because I don't want to keep my focus on her.

My four kids are all begging me to move back home and dreaming that I will get back together with mommy. I am not willing to do this in the current state, as much as they might love to be with me.

I have not had sex with my wife in three years and am not willing to have the outward appearance of a marriage with no intimacy, even if my kids would appreciate that. I also am not willing to move back in until my wife has decided that she wants to have marriage counseling and I have gotten clarity and commitments around her stopping infidelity.

WW claims my finding out about cybersex was an invasion of her privacy. She says our lack of sex is because she doesn't desire me because of various reasons, some of which make sense (my weight gain) and some of which don't. By the way I am working on the weight, for me.

WW seems to want me to suck it up and be willing to be married to her, "for the children", but to accept no intimacy. She says "I want to stay married, just don't touch me ever again, OK". I did not touch her badly in any way in the past, her revulsion towards me developed over time and came from within.

Note about WW's family, which I did not notice at the time I met her. WW is from Asia and I failed to notice that her father and grandfather were both henpecked and dominated by their wives. Please understand, WW was very, very cute and affectionate when she was 21. Also, apparently WW's father and possibly grandfather had "no sex but family is together"-type relationships since their kids were born. HEr father and mother do not sleep together. Father-in-law is a nice guy, but I am not like him.

I AM UNWILLING TO STAY MARRIED TO A WOMAN WHO WILL NOT BE INTIMATE WITH ME, EVEN IF SHE IS THE MOTHER OF MY CHILDREN AND EVEN IF MY DIVORCE WILL HURT THEM.

I have given my wife a year to figure herself out, whether she wants to reconcile. She seems very unconcerned about my deadline and threats of divorce. WTF is going on in her head? Should I even care?

You guys may wonder why I moved out instead of making WW move out. I don't want to argue that here, it's what works best for me under the circumstances, especially because my younger kids are very attached to WW right now and need her on a daily basis.

When I discovered my WW's infidelity I was very down on myself. I have had a lot of self-esteem problems. However, I am beginning to wake up to the fact that I am a great catch to someone if my WW will not treat me the way I deserve to be treated. I know that no-one is owed anything in life, but to stay in a marriage I have certain requirements.

By the way, I think WW is playing a game of chicken with me. She seems to think I will cave and stay together for the family. The answer is no. She seems to think I don't have the guts to divorce her. The answer is also no, but I can see how she would feel that way given that I haven't filed yet.

WW is an idiot. Let me explain why. I had absolutely no clue she was cybersexing, until I found out completely by accident. If she had been the one to "suck it up" and given me bad sex twice a month, I never would have noticed a thing for years possibly. I would have stayed in the relationship like a slowly boiling frog. Even now, if she threw me a blowjob now and then, and intermittently claimed to want to go to counseling, or even went to a few counseling sessions and blew smoke, I would probably continue to be married to her for years as things played out. However, paradoxically, because she has shut me out totally from intimacy, and given me no good options, I am maneuvered into a divorce. How could my physical touch creep her out that much? I had four children with her for Christ's sake! I have not grown two heads. I guess I should thank her in a strange way for her intransigence, and absolute lack of showing any interest, it is a gift of sorts. Some days I wish I could see inside her head or be a fly on the wall.

I have been willing to wait a year to pull the divorce trigger because I want my kids to understand later on that I tried very hard to make this work.

Also, my kids have been worried that my moving out is due to something they did, especially my eldest daughter, who is precocious and has had a lot of arguments with my wife.

Question for the group: Assuming I divorce my wife, after each of my kids go off to college (turn 18) I want to tell them the real reason I divorced my wife:
1. She refused to be intimate
2. The cybersex and betrayal
3. She refused to reconcile or get counseling
I want to tell them when they are 18 or a similar age because I want them to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was not their fault. Also, I want them to know this at the beginning of their "adult" period because I want them to have a better chance of "being healed" or reconciled to their parents' divorce before they start entering serious relationships of their own.

As for what my WW would think about me telling them this, I know she would hate me terribly for telling them and consider it the ultimate betrayal. However, if we divorce within the next year and I move on, how much should I care about her feelings in this matter?


Me: BH
Her: WW
Married: almost 20 years
D-Day: 2009 (cybersex for over 5 years, associated EAs); in the dark about PAs, no full disclosure.

Posts: 271 | Registered: Mar 2009
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, March 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ethelred, what you say makes so much sense, and in so many ways you seem further along the road than I. The one thing that I wonder about is this statement:

I have been willing to wait a year to pull the divorce trigger because I want my kids to understand later on that I tried very hard to make this work.

Do you really want to make it work, or are you more concerned that your kids would see you as the one abandoning the family, rather than your wife?

I am in the D process, and I will insist that my STBXW agree to tell the kids that the D was what we both wanted (even though she doesn't want a D). If she refuses to go along with that, then the kids will eventually be told the whole truth, because I don't want them thinking I left for no good reason, even though their Mommy wanted me to stay. That would poison my relationship with my children, and saving her from shame is not worth that cost.


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
Ethelred
♂ Member
Member # 23332
Default  Posted: 8:41 AM, March 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My kids already seem to be in confusion about why mom and dad are not loving each other. They can definitely tell we are not in love. Fortunately we don't fight much anymore. I am in a weak position in certain respects, my 11 year old daughter accuses me "You left!".

In fact I did leave, because there are things that a man is not willing to live with.

I try to make myself accessible, but not living at home has cut back on my moments with them big time.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Married: almost 20 years
D-Day: 2009 (cybersex for over 5 years, associated EAs); in the dark about PAs, no full disclosure.

Posts: 271 | Registered: Mar 2009
Ethelred
♂ Member
Member # 23332
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, March 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Onceinalifetime,

Let me make sure I understand your current situation, your wife has cheated many times but she doesn't want to D?

What does she want exactly right now? What do you want? I'm sorry I haven't read your back story.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Married: almost 20 years
D-Day: 2009 (cybersex for over 5 years, associated EAs); in the dark about PAs, no full disclosure.

Posts: 271 | Registered: Mar 2009
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, March 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see. So your kids already see you as the one that chose to abandon the family, and they don't know why? If that's the case, I don't see how waiting a year to pull the D trigger would put you in a different light in their eyes. Or are you holding out a candle of hope that your WW will change and that there may still be hope for your M?

Sorry if I'm a little slow on the uptake.


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
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