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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 4
Just Crushed
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Member # 24852
Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, March 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Amazing how similar our stories are of unremorseful WWs and low expectations. My expectations are rock bottom. I guess that's the point though. Take care of you and keep resetting the bar lower. At some point we will know we can't live the the bar that low.

My WW wouldn't even set the bar high enough to go in the WS forum to see what a truely remorseful person looked like. She just couldn't do it.
Now THAT is a lofty bar...LOL. Oh, you're not alone here, my WW wouldn't be caught dead on a support site like this.

Funny...in MC I asked WW AND MC why my W couldn't/wouldn't learn about how a M can survive infidelity...MC said "maybe your WW isn't the book learning type"...WTF??? Well, I know she is the internet type of gal (from her cheating and all...), but no she could not go on the internet and read/research/participate in anything remotely related to infidelity and self-help.

I pointed her to SI a few times. I think she came here once and decided we are all angry souls looking to bash any WS brave enough to come on SI.

[This message edited by Just Crushed at 2:52 PM, March 30th (Tuesday)]


BH
*details in Profile*

Posts: 843 | Registered: Jul 2009
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, March 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I pointed her to SI a few times. I think she came here once and decided we are all angry souls looking to bash any WS brave enough to come on SI.

Mine did to. Many years ago. She got banned because she called remorseful WS liars because they were throwing the OM and the whole A under the bus. She also didnt buy that the WW is at fault for the A 100%. She wanted all the WS to admit what she (me WW) believed was the truth. That the A was a wonderful time full of happy memories. And if the BH had just been a better husband then none of it would have happened any way. So the BH should shut up and just get over it.

Oftimes the level of denial and its relation to the core of the WW being is just to deep. To admit they were wrong is to make they self less of a person. To work on they self is to admit that they are the one lacking. Instead of the BH - which is the safer thing to do in the narcissistic POV.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
quedagh
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Member # 24195
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, March 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Divorce came because the bar was set and she tried to get me to lower it--

She is now accepting (reluctantly and still with the blameshifting and history rewriting MOST of the time- but not ALL anymore) every thing on the R list--with dragging feet.

We are in couples counseling-- and I am using that to force her to face her demons. Underhanded, yes, but it is working. Not really for "us" but so she doesn't pass on that shit to the littles.

I think the D showed her that I would and could move on despite loving her-- I would like to see R come out of this... but my expectations are quite low.

She has such a hard time looking at her self, I am surprised all her mirrors aren't covered in shrouds


Divorced and safer, mostly.


Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2009 | From: Recovery Land
StillnLimbo
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Member # 26480
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, March 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, this is such a great forum and I see my WW in every post! I've decided this week that D is the only option after many, many D-days and false R and blame shifting and yada, yada, yada....I've decided she is a narcissistic sociopath with deep-seated psych problems she is unwilling to work on. Hell, everytime we go to MC, she lies to her! Manipulates her! Anyway great post and I copy and pasted Wincing_At_Light's post at the beginning. Classic!!


BS me 52
WW 36
D-day #1 11/12/09 d-day #2 12/2/09 #3 2/25/10. R 4/6/10

Posts: 19 | Registered: Dec 2009
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:21 AM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

StillnLimbo,

While I'm glad that you found comfort in one of my posts, it's also important to realize that my situation has changed *dramatically* since August. Things can change.

I spent a great deal of time not seeing the steps my wife was taking -- and we, collectively, did a great deal of not communicating our individual processes over the three years after D-day. At some point, when I didn't see any proactive change, I dismissed her efforts so that when she really did begin changing, I was no longer interested in seeing it.

This is part of process that we have to be careful with, I think (which I can say since I botched it so thoroughly). If we let ourselves give up on the hope that they'll change, we stop seeing real and legitimate changes as they occur. That's not such a big deal if you choose to divorce, but it certainly sucks the energy out of marriage if you're trying to R.

I'm not going to pretend it's easy to keep being vulnerable and open and hopeful, and everyone has to keep their own thresholds for suffering in mind, but it's also in our best interest if we hope to R to keep ourselves grounded in reality and true perceptions of the current situation rather than letting ourselves view things constantly through the lens of the past. This can, I think, be incredibly difficult if remorse and actions are not instant and obvious. (FYI: My wife was diagnosed with Bipolar II within a week of D-day. It took the better part of a year for her stabilize on her meds, which left me for most of that year to tend to myself alone. These were significant factors in how our eventual R unfolded -- by the time she was ready to start giving and helping me, I was beyond needing it. YMMV.)

I'm not going to be all sunshine and unicorns here and say that if you hold on long enough, things will work out and your spouse will give you what you need. Some people just don't change. They don't have the courage for it, and they don't deserve the opportunity to continue hurting you because you're wearing your hope on your sleeve.

What I am saying is that part of the work we need to do is staying grounded in reality so we give our wives the opportunity to change in ways that we can see. We owe ourselves that opportunity.

I wish you luck.

Edit: added *not* to the sentence "This can, I think, be incredibly difficult if remorse and actions are not instant and obvious" above. Without the not, it's a completely different sentence.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 11:42 AM, March 31st (Wednesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anyone stop to notice we all married the same woman??

just sayin'


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
shyguy
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Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jimi40 is right! That is either very funny or very sad.


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It seems to be just part of life. Hey, at least it ain't boring!


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
quedagh
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Member # 24195
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The similarities are uncanny.


Divorced and safer, mostly.


Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2009 | From: Recovery Land
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anyone stop to notice we all married the same woman??

it's because they are all the same!

An older guy that comes in my store said today he was getting married-I told him "Sorry to hear that" before I even thought.

oh well, he's old enough to know what he's in for, IMO.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Ready_to_run
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Member # 20954
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL,

That's an interesting perspective. I get what you are saying that if we are too consumed in our own anger and grief that it makes it hard to see positive changes being made by our WW. However, I am sure that is exactly what my STBXWW is telling everyone who will listen. That she tried and made changes (like not screwing men in our house when I am out of town) but I just didn't have enough forgiveness in my heart and I was just to consumed with bitterness and anger to give her another chance.

3 years is a long time to hold out hope for true and lasting change. I commend you for being able to stand in the fire and stick it out. I officially threw the towel in at the 16 month mark. Im my case I needed to try for my kids. I am 100% sure that if I didn't have kids I would have been long gone on D-day.

I asked her the other day if she has had any contact with the other man. She told me that they exchanged a couple of emails 2 months ago and nothing since. I don't believe for a second that that is all the contact they have had. But, it just helped to validate my decision to D her. Why don't I feel any better then?

Sorry, kind of turned into a ramble at the end.


BH
D-Day #1 5/2003
D-Day #2 5-25-08
D-Day #3 6-23-08
Divorced 9-17-10


Posts: 716 | Registered: Sep 2008
shyguy
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Member # 18281
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ready, I don't know what will make me feel any better. Time helps I guess. If my x died a horrible painful death I still won't feel any better.


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That's an interesting perspective. I get what you are saying that if we are too consumed in our own anger and grief that it makes it hard to see positive changes being made by our WW. However, I am sure that is exactly what my STBXWW is telling everyone who will listen. That she tried and made changes (like not screwing men in our house when I am out of town) but I just didn't have enough forgiveness in my heart and I was just to consumed with bitterness and anger to give her another chance.

Yes. I agree completely, and thanks for pointing this out. Please don't take my post above as any sort of criticism for choosing to divorce.

I spent every day of three years asking myself if I should divorce.

I think everyone has to find their threshold...how long they're willing to hang on before they can walk away. I'm not going to pretty it up: I stayed a long time because I didn't want to be a weekend dad and didn't want to pay CS, so I developed a sort of grim, stick-it-out attitude. The problem was that I held on to it longer than was useful. My wife was changing. I was just refusing to see it.

In a vast majority of cases for the guys in this thread, their wives aren't changing, or they're not changing significantly enough to make a difference, and in those cases, hanging on until they've had enough (or until their kids are grown, etc.) are paths I understand. And I understand divorce. I admire the guys who had the courage to walk away as soon as they decided they were done.

Mostly what I'm saying, I guess, is that my wife started making serious strides toward emotional and mental health at about the 18 month mark, and I was too far gone into self-protective mode to even see it by that point. I was singly devoted to making/keeping myself healthy and happy and raising my kids. When I look back now, I can't help but think how awesome it would have been if I hadn't wasted that extra 18 months.

But that said, I also recognize that part of me needed that extra 18 months, too. I needed the distance and the ability to recover the fundamental me from what had become the husband-and-dad me. I needed to re-learn how to prioritize myself, my needs and my dreams. I don't know that I could have done that if I'd leapt back into husband-and-dad/we're-recoveringed mode at the first indication of progress.

My wife and I agree that because of our individual personalities, the three year out of the way loop was probably the best course for us. If we'd gone straight to MC, I'd have sublimated all of my anger and devoted myself to the management of her mental illness and worked my ass off to be a "good guy"...and she would have let me. We'd have repaired our marriage, but it would have been at the expense of *me*, and God only knows how that would have re-surfaced ten or fifteen years down the road.

Truth is, I needed to remember how to be me. I needed to punish her with distance for awhile. I needed to demonstrate that I could get by just fine on my own, and she'd best remember that. Given my wife's history, that distance and unreliability exacerbated her own abandonment and self-esteem issues and forced her to deal with them -- forced her to stand on her own two feet and learn to soothe herself. Without that, I would have continued to be "safe" or even the safety net, and ten years from now, we might have found ourselves right back here going through it again.

So, long story short, I'm really just reminding folks to poke their head up out of the foxhole and survey the battlefield from time to time. See if things have changed and make informed decisions from there.

But if the ultimate decision is just to nuke the battlefield into a parking lot (divorce), that's okay, too.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Hurt&Crushed
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Member # 14108
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's been 2 years since I've even stepped into this sight and WAL's words still carry so much weight, so much truth. There are times when I wished I had stayed here and used it more to my advantage. As always WAL, well said.


"Get busy living, or get busy dying. That's goddamn right" - Red

Me(34)BS/WS
RoleModel(34)WS/BS
M 10yrs
Kids 7,7,3 all boys
Dday 1/07 & 3/07
RM's 12/07
Reconciling!!! :)


Posts: 1329 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: NY
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As allways wincing_at_light rocks the house.

This gives me pause tho.

This is part of process that we have to be careful with, I think (which I can say since I botched it so thoroughly). If we let ourselves give up on the hope that they'll change, we stop seeing real and legitimate changes as they occur. That's not such a big deal if you choose to divorce, but it certainly sucks the energy out of marriage if you're trying to R.

I have gone this way from day 1. Allways hoping and allways looking for signs of improvement or change. What I was doing was seeking lollipops in a mountain of shit. A normal person. If they were to find said lollipop would hesitate to give it a lick. eh? But I was so desperate to see change and improvement that I would leap at any sign from her. Even if the sign was of me own imagination.

*grasping at straws* dont go far enuf to describe me predicament. I was digging thru all the shit she spewed out seeking any thing that might even remotely resemble a lollipop. Once found I would slurp it on down. Hoping it would taste good.

IMHO the best route to sanity in this insane predicament we find our selfs in is to be cautious of any *seeming* change in our WW. Doubt its authenticity. Watch and see if it a fluke. Or possibly a trend to the positive. Basically. Give what seems a lollipop a sniff at the least before giving it a lick.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Just Crushed
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Member # 24852
Default  Posted: 6:57 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great conversation boys. Yes, it is funny how similar our WWs act. They don't understand the pain they've caused and believe we are part if not all to blame for the current sitch...pretty incredible stuff.

I do have to agree that I would not fault any BS for divorcing their WS for infidelity. In my book it doesn't matter if they are remorseful or it was a ONS...cheating is grounds for D, period. For those BSs that want to R, I think WAL has a good point. I've gone through so many different stages of emotions and dynamics in the relationship. AT first (after my rage settled and I came back home) I tried to do everything to "fix" things. LOL...now that was a joke. WW in withdrawal and I'm planning "date nights"...what a fool I was. Then apathy towards my WW settled in and I was severely depressed about my sitch. A few weeks back I pulled the D cord and moved out. Now WW seems to be showing some real signs of coming back to the M.

But, I agree w/ Razor and will use his test

IMHO the best route to sanity in this insane predicament we find our selfs in is to be cautious of any *seeming* change in our WW. Doubt its authenticity. Watch and see if it a fluke. Or possibly a trend to the positive. Basically. Give what seems a lollipop a sniff at the least before giving it a lick.


BH
*details in Profile*

Posts: 843 | Registered: Jul 2009
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I heart Razor's test.

(My wife and I are both cracking up over that image.)


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
resigned
♂ Member
Member # 12903
Default  Posted: 9:01 PM, March 31st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mornings are by far the hardest for me. I can be okay in the evening, but when I wake up in the morning I just feel hopeless.

It's like an everyday thing. Sometimes I can tie it to dreams, but more often I can't. I just feel like I've been robbed of my life when I wake up each morning.

Does anyone else dread waking up?


Posts: 453 | Registered: Dec 2006
lostcause111
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Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 8:13 AM, April 1st (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL has a very valid point. You have to look.

It just feels sometimes I think after being betrayed I want teh changes now espeiclaly when you start to get better.

You get a WTF attitude she killed me in a way and this is it? Some minor BS. But if it keeps going and becomes consistant it is not minor BS.

I do think their is a point that us as the higher functioning spouse who had basically kept the M alive has to let go and let them do their part. Withdraw and see if they fill the void. WALS wife did ... you will NEVER relaly know unless you give them the opportunity to grow and fix themselves as nothing you can do will cause this change.

You have to just work on you and let them deal with their shit on their own and see in the end if it is enough.

Kinda funny too WAL's reasons are the same as mine. I want to be a dad. I have been holding onto that as a means to get what I need.

My wife is somewhat grating and abusive and that is really what I want to stop.

That has become the issue for me. I can be me take care of myself and really hate to say have lowered my expectation of my wife.

Her anger is what will make or break this.

I am at two and a half years out and it is only now I see some change in her but it has not been consistant enough for me to say we can keep going.

And despite this us we on this site must keep going and living and see if our WW come along for the ride or not.

[This message edited by lostcause111 at 8:18 AM, April 1st (Thursday)]


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
Mighty
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Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, April 1st (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good thread... you guys sure we didn't marry the same person?

Resigned. I too struggle in the mornings for some reason. I also feel like I've been cheated out of my life. As the day wears by though it fades... Then repeats the next morning. I can't really tie it to anything in particular.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
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