UK -- do you think spending those days with his AP was kind of an avoiding thing? Like you're the real deal so it's scarier to be with you than with her? I'm not sure I'm expressing myself well. Here's what I'm thinking -- one thing that really threw me off about the A is that my H has always been shy with me. So, the thought of him really being out there with another person was unthinkable.
In fact, when I was first diagnosed bipolar my IC and I spent quite a bit of time talking about my "weird" belief that my H was cheating on me. After going over all the objective points of his behavior, etc. it just seemed that rationally there was no way and so she/we really thought it was a psychotic delusion. Seriously. Kind of ticks me off now.
ANYWAY the other day my H said to me that I make him nervous because I'm so special. And I've been doing a lot of thinking about that, even before he said it (because of his shyness), because he has been quite different (in a good way) since this all came to light and while I had been trying to wrap my head around how this even could have happened I decided on the analogy that being with her is like singing in the shower and being with me is more like singing on stage -- of course, maybe I'm reading a lot more into it. Who knows? But maybe it's something like that? Because he's with YOU now, KWIM? There are people out there who sabotage themselves on purpose.
I really am waiting for the other shoe to drop though. I know her. And I really think she'll be back. My best guess is that my H was more the aggressor but I still think she'll be back.
I really don't know what happened between them at the end there -- assuming it's the truth that it's ended. Do y'all think I really need to know? Just curious. I mean, part of me thinks, he said its over, she said it's over his behavior seems to indicate its over why waste my time wondering if they'll start it up again?
She gave me a pseudo-apology. It was a pretty good one, actually, for someone who is probably in a fog. It was better than my H's apology, I'll give her that. She said (and I'm shortening this up a bit, but this is the important part and all the qualifiers are still in there)
I am truly deeply sorry -- you have no idea. I wish it was different. I have no excuses. I wish I did. I have spent hours praying about this very thing but I always acted on impulse. (this is the part that pisses me off, but I digress) I too will be out of your life and WH's. I feel very sad but that is the way it should have been a long time ago. I can't express the feeling I have now mostly anger at me for letting it happen and for all of the hurt it caused. I know you said this also but our friendship has been important to me and I will truly miss you.
But who knows -- maybe the secret not being a secret brought her to her senses. I see some manipulation in that pseudo-apology (it was given on dDay) but I also see some true regret and remorse as well. She also said in there that she loves her husband very much.
I have this very weird (and sometimes inconvenient) gift for seeing the good in people. It sometimes blinds me to the bad. My WH has been very unhappy the past few years -- and she has as well. I was so annoyed sometimes by OW's bad attitude but then I finally realized that OW must have a big problem she didn't want to talk about so I felt more compassionate about her outbursts. Until now Anyway, there is a big part of me that feels so much compassion for them. My WH is so much happier now. I hope she is too. They wasted so much time screwing their lives up, and for what? They both have so much good in them, despite this and I thought better than this of both of them. It's just so sad for them on one level.
And darn it all I do miss her. And my kids miss her kids. They keep asking when they can have a playdate since it's been so long. (It's been 4 months since they've seen their friends) Stupid idiots. Stupid me!
I think I'm having a bit of a hard time now because I'm getting near the end of my pregnancy and because they always spent St. Patrick's Day together and my WH was meeting her when I was on bedrest and before I could have sex again postpartum last year. I guess that's what everyone calls triggering. Ugh.
I do not have the experience of a double betrayal such as yours. I have lost a good friend over something but not like this. I'm sure it must be a very tough and confusing situation. Also the poor kids caught in the middle. Damn.
You wonder why you fear it is not over? I think it is hard for us to eliminate that possibility from our minds. When you see what you thought was impossible happen, how do you now think that something is impossible now? I am 99% sure that my W is not going to have another A. The other 1% is there because I know for a fact that anything is possible.
Why waste your time wondering if it is over? Do you really need to know why/how it ended? I feel if you are asking yourself about this, you probably need to know.
About the stupid idiots, stupid me comment. I assume the idiots you refer to are your WH & the OW. I can agree with that statement. I strongly dissagree with your stupid me statement. You are so far from stupid that I don't think the distance can be measured.
I hate to see you having all these problems and triggers when you are so close to having your girl. You should not have to be triggering at a time like this.
One question. Miracle was wondering what a hair shirt was. Could you provide her the answer? I think she really needs to know!
She is so curious about everything.
Hugs to the tribe.
I know I'm not stupid, but I feel stupid for missing her. I ought to just hate her, but I'm not that kind of person and anyway I know her too well and about her FOO issues, etc. and I can pretty much tell you the why of how she ended up in this affair.
She's always on the make when her H isn't around (will get you a lot of free drinks to hang out with her though!) She has a bad self-image and is constantly seeking male attention to boost her ego. I'm pretty sure she's a serial cheater.
In fact, I had some questions for my WH that he thought were weird until I explained to him that over the years she'd told me some stories about a "friend" of hers and I needed to know if they were really about him -- and only *some* of them were (most were not) so WH and I realized he's probably not her only OM. Now, why that should surprise anyone (it surprised me a lot less being the only one of me, her BH and my WH to see her turn it on when those two aren't around) I don't know. She actually met her BH as a ONS and didn't even remember his name when he called her the next day. 'Nuff said.
And then, of course, I let her know about the 1200-something texts my WH had sent his XGF from HS over the last few months and the secret visit he took out to where she lives on a supposed work day so that might have made her think twice about him too.
I almost did the meanest thing to her when I realized they were having an A. Instead of confronting him or her, I thought about calling her in tears about WH's XHSGF. I mean, really, I had all those texts (didn't look at them though) and other evidence too. I was going to ask for her advice, etc. I knew it would hurt her. But I don't like to hurt people. I still told her about that and every other piece of evidence I found about WH's recent string of poor-choice activities later on Dday but as nicely as possible. Much as a BS has a right to know -- she's got a right to know who she's screwing her marriage up for-- I mean, really, she's got a great husband, why throw that away for someone who is clearly troubled? And all people involved in A's are troubled. That is the essence of how they get there. Maybe they're working through or avoiding some issue in a non-productive way, maybe they're mentally ill, maybe they're so selfish that it is or borders on sociopathic, but they are certainly troubled.
Actually, I really thought the A was with XHSGF. Anyway, he was probably more at the beginning of an EA there that I nipped in the bud, though maybe it was more. Doubtful though. Turns out the trip out to where she lives really was him playing hooky with his boss to go fishing on a nice Friday (as he claimed that day.)
I mean, with WH and OW, I could tell they were attracted to each other -- I spoke to them both about it gently on different occasions as appropriate. After one party where they were tipsy and flirting a bit too much I told my friend later that evening "Those two are a train wreck waiting to happen. They are one beer too many on a day when someone has a wild hair up their a** away from doing something really stupid." I just didn't think they'd really DO it! (or more accurately had been doing it on and off for the last 20 frickin' years.) Jeesh. Those things didn't happen often and I always said something about it to them, so I did my part.
[This message edited by m334455 at 2:45 PM, February 17th (Wednesday)]
tryn: love that elvis bird..
m3: you sound like you must be the "NICEST" person i have ever not met.....you sound almost impossible and quite miraculaous to have the compassion that you seem to embody.....
I decided on the analogy that being with her is like singing in the shower and being with me is more like singing on stage
"I'm telling you right now, If I catch you screwing around with my husband I am going to *f* you up.") Man did she backpedal like crazy after that -- I think I scared her. I could list a bunch of stuff.
I almost did the meanest thing to her when I realized they were having an A. Instead of confronting him or her, I thought about calling her in tears about WH's XHSGF. I mean, really, I had all those texts (didn't look at them though) and other evidence too. I was going to ask for her advice, etc. I knew it would hurt her.
and would have loved this if you did it.. ...i am so not nice....
and its amazing that you still miss her, or is it who you thought she was that you really miss, because if she were true she wouldn't have fucked your husband no matter how messed up her sich was....
I think he only sent that email so that I can't ever throw it in his face again that he never *truly* apologized for hurting me.
We operate as a business now, taking care of the kids, but he sleeps on the couch and we don't talk unless it's about the kids (there are no "i love you's" or showing of affection). I have to say, I am enjoying the break a bit, but what kills me is that he actually seems happy...
I researched Divorce in my state and may be setting up a consult soon. It just all seems so final and the irrational side of me wants to keep fighting for us depsite him giving up. Someone 2x4 me, please!!
no 2 x 4's....just lots of hugs (((((broken)))))
he is probably happy because he is not feeling pressure, from questions, from trying to give answers, to being remorseful...kind of a respite for him too not just you....
the feelings that we feel, ws's and bs's alike can be more intense then any other feelings any of us have ever had....and having a small respite from them can almost seem slightly euphoric....and then you wait for that proverbial other shoe to drop...they don't call this the rollercoaster for nothin...
i am glad you are doing your homework, make sure you keep it all private from him...he is not trustworthy and until you cover all your bases its not worth both the confrontation or the worry of his retaliation if there is any....
oh m3, i am glad that you do have a support sytem, it really helps, even if you don't use it much, just knowing its there is a comfort...
yay....and more yay....be proud...you stood up for youself with style and class...
Good HEAVENS! That is some seriously crazy stuff. Good job on how you handled it! What did your WH have to say about all that nonsense?
m3: you sound like you must be the "NICEST" person i have ever not met.....
Ah, yes. My psychiatrist says I am pathologically nice. I'm pretty sure it's not a compliment. Like I said, it does get me in trouble sometimes -- you know, things like your husband thinking he can have an A and not be read the riot act.
No, she shouldn't have had the A. No, she's not the person I thought she was. All true. My guess is that they got drunk, he seduced her because she's susceptible to that and he knows she is and then they convinced themselves that it doesn't really count as cheating because they'd had a prior relationship. Dumb, but I know my WH pretty much said the last part. He said it wasn't really that bad because it wasn't that often and it's not like he was looking for new people or planning on divorcing me or anything. Ugh. (That was his first non-pology. He's given me a decent apology and pulled his head out of his rear more since then.)
Anyway, what do y'all think about my hunch that she'll be back? I know one of my friends who knows her agrees with me, but we could just be feeling extra-catty if you know what I mean.
Broken -- yes, please, please go talk to a divorce lawyer. If nothing else, I think you will feel much better knowing what you're facing financially, etc. if you do choose to divorce him. I've been divorced and having that concrete knowledge that it's going to be like X can really help you make a decision. You may find once you've spoken to them that you do want out but you need to make some changes to practically leave, and it's best to make those changes now, even if it turns out that you R and wind up not needing them.
I know, as a practical matter, one thing I am in the process of doing is re-organizing my life so that a D would be much easier if necessary. It's not my first choice, but if he goes back to this relationship or on to another one he really shouldn't be married. It will teach my kids the wrong things about marriage and how to treat women and how they should allow themselves to be treated.
It makes me very sad that my WH has let someone use him so heartlessly. She married someone else behind his back while having a relationship with him, the later when he was happily married she jumped back into bed with him and when he started making a lot more money than her BH she shifted to trying to break his marriage up. That's not love. It's ugly and cruel and you would think a person would have more self-resepct than that. I'm sad that he didn't. I hope he will in the future. I know that he's at fault too, more than she is as far as I'm concerned since she made me no vow of fidelity, and it also saddens me that my WH stooped so low to use someone else in such a fashion. To seduce a woman away from a husband who truly loves her, simply to feed his ego and to get a thrill. Oh it is just SO ugly, all the way around.
and it also saddens me that my WH stooped so low to use someone else in such a fashion.
I think my W has been a good lady since... but heck, who really knows? You Don't. I do trust God will let me know... plus my boundaries have changed... makes it much tougher... things will get exposed with my new boundaries.. they just will.
Broken... Nothing wrong with checking options... call to get a few quotes about filing a D... you can learn alot by talking to the paralegals. I think they all want $2500 - $3500 retainer. But I would give your H every chance to make changes... that way, you never regret. I've always been told, when you know, you know.
I do have a new attitude in life. If my W is not what I want... and I am not happy after making my needs perfectly known.... I will D.
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:21 AM, February 18th (Thursday)]
People that have A's are not good people.
Ah, yes. Sometimes I look at my WH and think: "Look out! He's a wolf in sheep's clothing."
I better get on with my day. All this everything isn't going to do itself!
Thanks for the hair shirt explanation. I'm sure miracle feels much better now.
So you were voicing your suspicion about the A and they kept on doing it anyway! Boy is that not a clear example of how these WSs are in a fog. Of course the part of them thinking they were not cheating because of the prior relationship fits into the insane category too.
You are a very nice person. Yes we can be too nice at times, but if it is not in you to be a mean person I think nice is a good thing.
I was in the middle of a law suit and my lawyer told me I was too nice and honest. I just replied that I was what I was and that when the case was done I wanted to be able to sleep at night.
You are right. These affairs are just so ugly all the way around.
I really did not care about the hair shirt. I was pretty worried that you might lose sleep if you did not get your answer. I'm really a nice person too. I bet I am close to cracking the top 10 of the nicest people you have never met.
No 2x4. I think you have done good. It is understandable that you do not want to give up. I agree, that you need to try to R as much as you can, but he has to help. If he has no remorse, I do not see how you can R.
Wow, that is some crazy stuff. You really did a good job.
Hugs to the tribe.
tryn: i disagree, i dont really believe that all people who have affairs are bad people, sometimes good people do bad things.....i think each case would need to be judged separately based on the shoes those people have walked in..
dip: yes dip you most certainly are on my list of the nicest people i never met.... i have to admit this list is longer then the list of the ones i did meet...
oh i almost forgot, took my dd17 prom dress shopping today, it was fabulous....she has an amazing little body....i look at her and can't believe that i made that...
she did get a dress, a beautiful red gown which looked super seventeen sexy...
It is true. You meet the nicest people on the LTA thread.
Super seventeen sexy! Oh to be seventeen again. Keep her away from that Elvis dude in the mall.
M3... thinking good thoughts for the birth of your daughter.
And darn it all I do miss her. And my kids miss her kids
broken... glad to read that you are taking care of yourself and researching your options. IWAM is probably correct that your WS is happy to not be 'on the hot seat'. Your version of the 180 will help you to detach and think clearly what is best for you and your family.
sailaway... GOOD ON YOU for being able to give the OW a taste of her own medicine... she doesn't get NC and your actions were needed imo.
tryn & dip... always good to read your points of view. These days I'm struggling with the 'nice behaviour' and the 'good image' of my FWH... watching him look after his sister the past weeks made me proud but I still had bad moments due to the timing of events. Since our friends & most family are unaware of his LTA they are full of praise for him as they express their sympathy for his loss. I still choke back tears and recall his betrayal 3+ yrs later... torn between loving & supporting him and feelings of resentment. I can identify with M3's comment "Sometimes I look at my WH and think: "Look out! He's a wolf in sheep's clothing."
IWAM... a little prom retail therapy with your dd is good for the soul. I found some pix in a box the other day from my dd's prom day and recalled those times fondly. Now she is a great new mom and I am prouder of her still.
Keeping all of the tribe in my heart and thoughts. Not sure how I'd manage without this corner of the SI internet.
yes Iwant.. they are bad. I guess even a murderer can do something good. Would that be a good person doing something bad? I guess you can have different levels or degrees of badness... I'm not the judge btw... It's something already judged by history and faith.. For me, I still think infidelity is about as bad as it gets. Especially a LTA. I now know who I was married to... One rotten lady. Today... She is a good lady.
Tomorrow? I'm not sure what that will bring... but I know I am doing things that make me happy now... things that make me feel good..
- Having fun with my wife and being a great family man and H.
- trying to work harder then the past year
- Service to community and others
- Fun stuff with my kids... and friends.
[This message edited by trynhard at 2:39 AM, February 19th (Friday)]
that feeling of he really is not who he seems to be makes you want to scream out to people.....no, No, NO, NO he is not this person you perceive him to be......i know i feel that and i want him to be punished....i want justice....but alas i realize that sometimes there is no justice, shit happens...scoop it up and dispose of it....keeping it there, present and accounted for only makes it stink longer...and longer....and longer......and its amazing how difficult this is to do....get rid of the shit that stinks....it sounds easy, it should be easy,...hell who wants to be around shit all the time.....flushing it away should be simple.....but then using the same analogy, you finally flush it away and boom there is always more shit to be had....
oh lord have mercy, i don't know if i am making any sense today, bad case of dipstickitis it seems with a touch of insanity.. ...sorry people...
tryn: i respectfully disagree on the all ws's are bad people.....i think some of them just get caught up in their own pain and truly do not know how to deal and when someone comes along and validates them for who they are they become suceptable to having an affair.....doesn't mean they are bad people, it means they are good people doing bad things....
there are some though that i think are bad people, and i think how a ws handles it after the fact is what can make that person a bad person...because that is making a conscious choice to hurt that person.....by lying, minimizing, justifying, gaslighting...etc...because then they let their fears control who they are as opposed to stepping up and doing right....jmho...
"It doesn't even the score. It will never be even. Nothing she does will ever balance the scales because the hurt a WS may feel by a revenge affair will never compare with the utter devastation a blindsided BS feels on dday. She can't do ANYTHING to make it even, and I think that must be one of the shittiest things about being a BS: if you want to reconcile, there really isn't much justice to be had."
Years ago, when I was flying solo while dealing with these matters, I came to the same conclusion. I knew I was on the wrong end of the shit stick, and there was no way to truly turn the tables. It is one of the most shitty things for a BS to handle.
I agree with lostsuol. It is a bit hard to hear all the praise that is heaped on my W at times. She is highly thought of by several people we know. With good reason I might add. I too sometimes think, "If only they knew." If I was to D her, these people would think I was totally insane.
I do not want to "tell on her." That would not accomplish as much as it would do more damage. It is another bitter pill to swallow.
It is funny, not haha funny, how things like this are generally not known about, or not known to be such hard issues, when you are deciding to R.
I have to point out that you used dipstickitis and insanity in the same sentence. Is there some sort of hidden meaning?
I'm not sure I can call my W a bad person. She was behaving in a bad way during her A. She had and still has some pretty tough mental issues. I will say that when she is good, she is very good.
Acceptance really is a big piece of this puzzle, isn't it?
Hugs to the tribe.
I think a good person.... is someone that is generally honest, trustworthy, good attitude, doesn’t hurt other people, helping hands, sharing… all to the positive degree.
I think a bad person is someone that commits adultery, steals, murders, lies… you know, those 10 commandment things. A bad person commits adultery.
My point is this… I think very few of went into our marriages thinking our spouses were bad people. But as it turns out, they were. Now they have been exposed, it really is up to them to be a good person… and we can still look at, accept, forgive them for once being bad people.. and it is OK.. we accept. We can still love them even though they were once bad people… There is nothing wrong with that… it will bring you peace, even if you choose not to R. Shock becomes acceptance.
For those that hurt and hurt like I did for months and months… I think much of my hurt was because I just could not believe (accept) that I married someone that could have an A... It took a long time to admit it to myself, I could be fooled, I could be blind, I was not M'd to the person I knew... I had a hard time with accepting because of one of my faults (or blessings) in life was exactly the same as M3’s comment
It sometimes blinds me to the bad.
Myself… I choose not to be associated with bad people… This will protect my happiness. I’ll even go to the ends of the earth to protect it.....
Anyway... I still think about my wife's A everyday.... It would be nice to have just one day without the thought. Coming up on 3 months without my wife and I talking about her A. We are having fun..It's been good... and I have chosen to only share my feelings here with you fine folks... when asked about my W's A by people that know, I tell them I still have some hurt.. I'm still trying to forgive... but doing fine.
[This message edited by trynhard at 12:23 PM, February 19th (Friday)]
from what i have seen irl, and what i have seen on these boards i have come to realize that not all ws's are really bad people....they didn't commit murder and most of them never think they will get caught....some of them do not treat their bs's any different...some of them treat their bs's better....and i think how a ws chooses their behavior after being found out is where you find whether a ws is a good person or a bad person...do they lie, do they trickle-truth or do they step up and own their behavior....
good peopple do bad things all the time, its what you do after the you do the bad thing that accounts if you are bad or just made a bad choice...
for us in the lta sich, its bad choice upon bad choice upon bad choice...but still once discovered what did they do with it....
dip: insanity and dipstkickitis....i will have to ponder this one..
i must say dip, you put a smile on my face quite often.. ...does that mean i am insane