either saved it that way by accident (BUT HOW?!?!) or, maddeningly, to keep me "off his back" or whatever about something he knew was harmless
That's great about the new mc. I hope she kicks some butt in gear. When we were at the planning mc stages, and by we I mean me, I had all of these hypothetical situations planned where the mc would go in and pretend to be all nice and happy so wbf didn't get scared off and then once he started to get nice and comfy the attack would begin.
He just has a weird way of messing with the head in a way that I think is unintentional. Like I get the feeling that it seems very like him (with all that I know about him ) to
either saved it that way by accident (BUT HOW?!?!) or, maddeningly, to keep me "off his back" or whatever about something he knew was harmless
tsol, thank you, yes. I really don't think he is an evil manipulative cheater who's being sly in order to bang other chicks.
Thoughtless? Yes. Selfish? Yes. Self-absorbed? Yes. Evil and manipulative? No. Sneaky? Not on purpose . . . I don't THINK. He does have a way of doing absolutely maddening things unintentionally. It's like he has a talent for it. It's like he has an unconscious desire to drive me fucking insane and he has NO IDEA he's doing it. This is NOT just infidelity-related, either. It's him.
God bless. I think I'm going to rugsweep this unless I see more contact between them. Because it's going to drive me insane to think about it and I'm already on antidepressants at this point. I know I don't want to leave him. Not over this idiotic shit. Sometimes I wish he had never told me what happened. That's what I just told Candysmith over in the R forum.
I don't know that she will play hard ball with him but she does seem the type to call a spade a spade IYKWIM and she seemed completely unimpressed with his inability to consistently behave in a way that would aid my healing. Maybe she'll give him the 2x4 he needs to knock some sense into him LOL as previously stated he listens more to others than to me but I don't know if that will extend to her as he feels psychology is a crock of shit.
it's under ANOTHER woman's name - his old manager, who he can't stand. I do NOT understand why he'd put it under another woman's name - isn't Cheating 101 that you put it under a man's name?!?
It could be innocent BUT the problem is that post A what seemed innocent once is not any longer. It's a tough call, you know him best but I get a feeling it may be this...
I want to think he either saved it that way by accident (BUT HOW?!?!) or, maddeningly, to keep me "off his back" or whatever about something he knew was harmless.
But (I have another but) given his past behaviour this is no longer acceptable for you. The old adage of "those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing" comes to mind and even if he was saving it this way to "keep you off his back" under the circumstances you find yourselves is not acceptable. The correct course of action for him would be to tell you he's saved her number and why he feels the need to save her phone number.
he PW protected it after our big blowout about this FB girl - said he was tired of my snooping
This ^^^ alone would send me into a spin! Not on! He's tired of your snooping? That's too bad for him! I bet you're tired of dealing with the emotional turmoil he brought into your lives! He's the one who broke your trust in him, you didn't just wake up one morning and become a super snoop! It's on him to do everything possible to restore that trust and this action of locking his phone does the exact opposite. I believe you can learn to trust again... but the opportunity to verify is essential because I don't believe it can ever return 100%... and that's on him!
My WH did something "iffy" a few months ago, he got a new email account but neglected to mention it to me Grrrr. When I discovered it I waited a while (I had worked out the password and kept my mouth shut, I waited and watched before asking him... nothing was happening there except the intial reason he'd created it) and when I asked him about it and the reason for him getting a new email addy it was completely innocent... but IMO he still should have told me about. He hadn't because it was not in any way related to infidelity and it just didn't occur to him to inform me. I didn't blast him for it I just told him how bad it could look and that's why he has to be completely transparent, about everything.
"Unhappy marriages don't cause infidelity. Being unfaithful causes infidelity."
He didn't actually say he was tired of the snooping. He said he was tired of the interrogating. Because I ask a lot of questions when I don't understand something. And I don't understand this.
So I feel like it's either I divorce him or let it go, because he is not going to "get" it. So he wins? He did tell me that he understands that we are where we are "because of stupid shit" he did (not just the ONS, but the stuff following) and he told me that he would have felt uncomfortable if I had been on the phone with a guy from my past that long. So he gets THAT, I guess.
I still cannot believe that THIS, THIS is my marriage. Really? REALLY?
It's like he has an unconscious desire to drive me fucking insane and he has NO IDEA he's doing it. This is NOT just infidelity-related, either. It's him.
I can sort of understand just wanting to sit with this and see how it goes. Like you said, they aren't contacting each other and even after the accidental phone call this woman wasn't going "ooooo Mr. Green...mustcallrightnowandgetinbed". If you truley believe this is a case of him just using his drive-jana-psycho gene and there's nothing intentional behind it....
But I would bring up the pw. Heck, wbf never had any contact with ow1 via cell phone and I jumped off the deep end when he locked it. It's kind of one of those things where "if I knew then what I know now" I would have not wanted pw on phones to begin with.
I'm sure that it's so much more grey than this but, what if you tell him (in that clear fully encompassing way so as to avoid any confusion) that it would be best if he lets you know ahead of time if he's adding any new contacts. And you can go through the current ones and since he's being open about it you will send calm, cool and collected Jana out to ask the questions?
Hope is nice.
how I would love to be a fly on the wall during his solo session
I guess it comes down to what you will accept from him. I guess that's what it comes down to for all BS's, in a nutshell. I do have the feeling that while your FWH "gets it" he doesn't fully get "it" IYKWIM much like my own WH **sigh** It's hellishly frustrating when they get one part of this process right but then get another part oh, so very wrong.
I still cannot believe that THIS, THIS is my marriage. Really? REALLY?
I still ask myself this every day.
tsol♥ hope is wonderful, hope is beautiful... hope is... neccesary at this stage and I am hoping (there's that word again) that my WH will be totally honest in MC this time around.
I am not blind to the fact that I have behaviours that I need to change... although a part of me feels those behaviours were brought out in me as a reaction to his... a catch 22 perhaps? I am not blaming him for them but... YKIWM?
(I still would LOVE to be a fly on that wall )
**eta** I really, really hate typos LOL
[This message edited by Want To Wake Up at 11:57 PM, September 6th (Tuesday)]
Yep, he wanted to get into my faults! Sheesh, I know I have faults, some are reactions to him but some are all me... I know that but I am not in a place where I can address them before we deal with the shitstorm HE brought into this marriage. Am I being unreasonable? Maybe I am... but Lord love a duck... what does he expect from me? I am willing to address these behaviours but not until we have dealt with the main issues of his A's! I realise I am asking him to put me first... is that too much to ask?
(Probabaly repeating myself here but that's our relationship right now... rinse and repeat)
We were again on the old merry-go-'round discussion about how he can not seem to do the "right things" for more than 4-5 days because he will not unless he "gets something from me" (so it's not that he can not do these things, it is that he will not, it's conditional on my reactions and responses... how is that a true change in him? It comes off as self serving not selflessness) He wants me to show him affection, give him reassurances, convince him that I am "all in", give him something in return... before he has made me once again feel secure within this marriage. To my mind that is asking too much of me, that is something that will come once we are truly in R and out of limbo. He's asking me for another leap of faith, a leap I already willing took on DDay... and had thrown back in my face. Am I being too... 'demanding' by insisting that before I take that leap again I require more from him and over an extended period of time BEFORE I leap?
**sigh** On the bright side... I got my copy of "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" and after reading it (through my tears as it 'spoke' to me in a way I was not expecting) I am hoping that WH will read it tonight before his MC seesion tomorrow.
It may help him to see all the ways he is not being a "successful rebuilder". I have no idea if he'll even read it though as he stopped reading "Not Just Friends" at around page 100 as it "didn't apply to him anymore" because "he's changed".
Guess I have to wait and see what tomorrows MC session brings.
***ETA*** No MC for WH until next month. It's not his fault, the MC had to reschedule and since WH is still in his probationary period at his new job we don't want to 'rock the boat' there IYKWIM and want to stick with very late afternoon appointments... which are scarce. Once we get the ball rolling we'll book in advance so we have regular sessions happening.
On the bright side he DID read that book last night... we discuused it briefly (we had little time what with kids and RL getting in the way) so we'll see if that brings about the changes I need to see.
[This message edited by Want To Wake Up at 5:14 PM, September 12th (Monday)]
So, how are you all doing? I probably have about 5 mins before baby wakes up, and H is out getting the car serviced so I thought I'd try and catch up. Have hurriedly skim read your latest posts - sounds like a few cans of worms have been opened lately. This is such a shitty path to be on, isn't it? WTWU - my husband worked away alot and ended up cheating abroad, and I also found out in 2009. Interesting that tsol has talked about his love language being physical. I wonder whether our husbands just missed physical touch being away so much so stupidly went elsewhere for it? I know that is simplifying things a great deal, but it just made me think it could be part of the issue. Sounds like he has a bit of work to do on accepting responsibility and acknowledging your pain before he should start listing your faults. Maybe explain to him you are prepared to look at your faults but it's just too painful at the moment. He needs to give you the strength to do that by working through your issues with you about what happened.
Jana - I understand it must be really tough with the baby issue. After D day I decided I didn't want a baby as I thought it would be bad to bring one into our crappy relationship and I felt by the time I was ready I might be too old. So although that was my decision it was still really sad for me, so I sort of know how you feel. And then we had our little accident anyway so the decision was made for me. However, what I wanted to say was maybe just give it a bit of time - he'll probably come round and you are younger than me! Time is on your side! It might be worth leaving the issue for a couple of months then bring it up again when all this confusing house stuff is sorted out.
Tsol - how are you guys doing?
Things are busy but okay with us. The upside of me having zero time to myself is that I really don't have much time to think about all the infidelity issues! It's still there - I've made the odd comment that has upset WH but there's not been any detective work or questioning going on since July. I don't like to admit it, but not obsessing over her and their interaction has helped. It also helped that I realised why I was obsessed with her - basically I was finding out stuff about her that made her seem really unpleasant - nothing to do with infidelity, just some stuff she is into that is pretty immoral and irresponsible. I think I was scared that because my husband "connected" with her, there was a part of him that was like her and I didn't want to be with someone like that. We've talked about his dark side, and also about how I feel very different about it, especially now we have a child together, and he gets it and says that part of him is not something he's proud of, and that he also feels differently now he has a baby. So that realisation made me let go, and also made me realise I have no desire whatsoever to be like her, so I can stop feeling guilty for being me and just get on with being me!
WH has been brilliant looking after the baby and this feels like a good stage in our relationship. Only problem is I've seriously mislaid my libido. If anyone sees it please let me know! I can't work out if it's the infidelity, the stress of work, or just sheer exhaustion, but I know it can't be good for us. WTWU my H is like yours - he needs physical touch and whilst he accepts I'm just not up for sex at the moment he has told me he feels horribly unwanted.
Sorry if i've missed bits of your stories or misunderstood - I am used to doing everything at hyper-speed these days. I'm not sure when I'll get on next - I don't want to access this site from work as I know our web use is monitored but I will try and get on when I get the chance. I do think about you guys even when I am not here!
Hope you all have a good weekend.
Pheonix, you sound really busy and I'm happy things are going well with all of you. I think I sort of get the thought you were on when you said physical touch -and lack of could have been a factor in the ons while ws was away. Here's my take:
My LL is quality time, and lately I've been working 65-70 hours/week -9 days per week. It's exhausting and so much time goes by between when I can actually see wbf because if I have a few hours off we then have to see if he's working. So when I don't have any QT and my love tank is empty I really don't feel loved. And I feel as if that's an action from him "if he did love me, he would make time to see me" (yes I do realize it's MY work that's the problem here). But if I follow that along, and add in all of my readings from the ws forum about "the slope" I can see how when the LL is cut, it can be a factor in the ws rationalizing their A. Obviously, er hopefully you know I'm not saying "if you had have provided PT, there would be know A", it's still the ws' fault that when they felt that way they acted in the way they did. See on the days when I have a 0 reading on my love tank, it's up to me to fix that and I face the consequences (good or bad) of whatever my decision is
Ok I totally rambled there and have to go back to work
Hugs to all of you
Emotionally, I'm great.
I spent only a small amount of time today reflecting back a bit. In many ways, my life hasn't changed much, but in other ways, it's so much more. Best way I could describe it would be that looking back prior to Dday, life was a blur, today it is sharp and clear.
I have promised myself that I will never allow "life" to become blury again. It will always be sharp and clear, or steps WILL be taken to make it so. Never again will life "pass me by". Never again will I allow ANYONE to push me aside to meet their own needs/wants. I am a force to be reckoned with, or one to pass you by.
I just want to say you sound like you are doing good, that is giving me hope for my future.
DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.
Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.
It took me nearly 3 years to ACCEPT the fact that my husband's ONS was a product of his poor boundaries, and in fact (like so many had been telling me for years, but I wasn't able/willing to accept) had NOTHING TO DO WITH ME - NOTHING. Not the fact that I was in my mid-40's, had given birth to five children, have some gray hair, don't wear makeup on a daily basis, don't wear sexy clothes on a 25/7 basis, etc. It was ALL about HIM, and NOTHING to do with me.
It's a TOUGH road to get to the point in one's life as a BS to ACCEPT that fact. As a BS, we want to believe that it was something WE did, or didn't do, something we said, or didn't say, if only we had __________ . But it's NONE OF THAT! EVER!!!
I haven't been active on SI, or at least not on any A-related forums for a while because I feel I'm focused more on other things now but just know you are always more than welcome to PM any of us!
dx5, you are so right that it's HIS boundaries that were poor and wasn't your fault at all.
n&d, I found out 8 months after the 2nd A and finding out so much later hurts in a different way I imagine than finding out righ away. But nonetheless, the pain is the same. Have you read the healing library yet? It's a wonderful tool.
I just wanted to throw out there that I agree with tsol about the lack of LL.. My ll is QT and when wbf didn't make any effort to see me I definitely had an empty love tank. And in turn his love tank (his is PT)was empty because how could I be loving if I wasn't feeling loved? It's such a vicious circle!! tsol, I agree in that I can see how lack of ll can help the slope. It's almost like a catalyst or something.
I just also wanted to add that I am so sorry Jana and wtwu that you're still having a hard time ((((hugs to you both)))) This whole process is NOT easy. Wtwu, I know I would not have been able to handle MY faults after Dday had wbf pointed them out but I looked at them myself right after dday and realized that the way I was acting was alot like my dad and I hated my dad so I could understand why wbf would not have wanted to turn TO me. I was not easy to talk to at all. I was judgemental and bossy and insecure. I would've taken everything wbf said as criticism in the worst way possible.
Right now we are doing great- wbf said he liked hearing me talking about weddings and stuff even though it's definitely not happening anytime soon. We both agreed we would like to be financially secure to an extent before we looked at getting married because the stress of funding a wedding is not to be messed with. He wants his car paid off and then wants us to buy a house and then get married. This is the first time he's been more concrete in his timeline for how he sees things happening in the next several years! And he initiated the convo
One major issue we've had has been him feeling selfish about his car. He works full time as a firefighter and makes his own money. He bought his dream car and feels guilty for wanting to modify it (performance car, meant to be worked on and personalized essentially) because I don't even have a car and it's sweet he's been so concerned for my feelings but it got to the point where several weeks ago he lied about going to a car meet (they actually meet and drool over each other's cars and talk shop and stuff) but he felt guilty enough to tell me before leaving that that's what he really was going to do. I was crushed by the lie but I also kept in mind how he's been feeling about his car and me. I told him that his lie hurt me and I wanted him to be honest, and that I'd be honest if I was upset by anything (if his obsession with his car offended me, in particular). Since that talk, we have been good. I went to a car meet with him and we both had such a blast! So I just wanted to say that in the future, in R, or whenever, even if it's a petty lie, it can still hurt. But using what we both learned in CC has helped so much and we got through it and are all the better for it.
There is hope It takes TWO to make R happen but it can happen. Don't forget to take time for yourselves! Give yourself some A-free time to just be you and take care of you. I preferred painting bird houses. And sitting outside enjoying the sun. And dancing to Lady Gaga when I was home alone! But regardless, find something just for you. Make a date with yourself! You all deserve it
forgiven and in R :)
"To err is human.
And to the ladies who recently posted in this thread about their WH who is good at messing with their heads....I can relate to that too. Wh's second business trip after Dday he texted me and was so proud of himself for checking in yet he couldn't be contacted for the next 2 and a half hours while out for dinner and drinks! I swear he makes me crazy!!!!!
Anyone's WH have a ONS in a strip club?
What information are you seeking? 6K seems to be a heafty price for "just looking". WAY OVER the top, unless your husband is really rich and dumps HUGE tips on the strippers. Even factoring in "drinking", 6K is WAY, WAY TOO MUCH!
[This message edited by Devestatedx5 at 10:30 AM, October 3rd (Monday)]
I've just read all your posts.
From an outsider looking in, your husband is using strippers/call-girls/prostitutes, what ever name suits the situation.
I'm sorry honey.
That is an obscene amount of money to spend in one night, he must have got something more for it than a bit of a floor-show and a couple of bottles of champagne.
His comments and behavior are those of someone who feels a great sense of entitlement. Is he the sort of man who thinks he's always right, that the the rules apply to others - not him. Does he control you, your comments and questions, and your reactions with anger?
I feel he is a long way off remorse, he might regret that you've found out about it, but I don't think he's sorry.
As for him being "proud" he checked in, this is immediately negated by the fact that he then went AWOL for two hours. If he doesn't see how thoughtless that was, he really is clueless.
You know his phone didn't have a flat battery, so does he, lies are impossible to R with, I know this for fact.
I hope you get yourself to a lawyer honey, knowledge is power, you need to know your situation.
Be strong, use the 180, detach, hopefully he will quickly realize that he needs to tell the truth if you are to work through this together and have a future.
Above all honey, remember if something doesn't make sense, it's usually a lie.
Take care of yourself.
The phone thing, I should've updated that there was something wrong with his phone, I checked his records and it is as if his phone shut down....iPhone....as all of my calls and texts when he went AWOL never showed up when I checked his usage online. Although that does not excuse him for not borrowing a coworker's phone to check in with me for 2 and a half hours!
I really believe the strip club thing was a one time deal as all credit card and phone statements don't show anything suspicious. I think he went way overboard trying to impress his buddy. I am triggering right now bc he is on a trip back to same city where it happened.
I don't think he is remorseful at all nor is he telling the truth about that night bc he gets irritated if I bring the night up and tells me it was no big deal when we argue about it.....he is very cold about it.
At this point I feel like I need to focus on myself, keep my eyes wide open and move forward. His stubborn a$$hole self will never be honest about that night nor will he ever feel badly about it.
Thanks for hearing me rant