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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's IV
SouthernGal
♀ Member
Member # 27315
Default  Posted: 6:47 PM, April 14th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My opinion is, yes it WAS a mistake.

I'm addressing the idea here and not the person, so please don't take this as directed at any one specific person.

Writing a check for $200.00 instead of $20.00 is a mistake. Turning left when the instructions told you to turn right is a mistake.

These are errors in in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.

They are something you do once, realize was wrong and either correct or set forth with the intention of not repeating.

An affair, particularly one that is more than a ONS, is not a mistake.

An A that lasts for any length of time is a series of intentional acts. No one accidentally has an A.

The only instance in which I could see the "mistake" term being used accurately would be in the case of a ONS where the Wayward partner was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. But even then, that's a stretch.

When the OW apologized to me asserting that she made a mistake I told her the same thing. Having sex with my husband for two years was not a (as in singular) mistake. It was a series of calculated, intentional, wrongful acts.

I believe that one can admit that an affair was a wrongful act without resorting to the tired and over-used "mistake" label.

When my daughter put mistook salt for sugar and put it in her coffee, that was a mistake.

When my husband chose to engage in the destructive pattern of behaviour that led to and culminated in his two-year long affair - that was not a mistake. That was a series of wrongful, cruel, dishonest and amoral choices.


BS (Me) XWH (him) M nearly 16 yrs
1 DD (teens)
D-day #1 12/09, #2 2/10
Divorced 10/6/10

Posts: 3862 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: The Deep (Fried) South
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 7:30 PM, April 14th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wondering how WS or FWS when they own up to their compartmentalizing in order to do what they have done and are doing, how are they able to stop compartmentalizing and become integrated and whole? I realize by becoming integrated you are comfortable with all the people in your life being in the same room together.

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
nothereorthere
♀ Member
Member # 20530
Default  Posted: 1:35 AM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There was an interesting question asked on here. An accident isn't on purpose, and an affair has a lot of planning involved which makes it intentional. However, I do think a WS should consider it a mistake if they truly regret it. As for depression, yes I do believe many people can start an affair out of depression, emotional or mental problems. I watched my FWS go through a Doctor Jekyl and Mr. Hyde stage. It was obvious he was messed up, but it's difficult to get through to someone when they're like that. Basically, I think everyone is different and while some people have A's just because they can, there are people that are messed up when they get into an A that normally wouldn't put themselves in that situation. What do all you WS's believe? Do you consider your A a mistake and do you believe depression, emotional or mental problems can be involved?

My FWS was put on meds for a chemical imbalance after his A and he started being more rational again like his old self. I'm not saying it's an excuse for his A, just saying it can have an impact on a person's actions. I know a lot of people go through depressions, emotional problems and mental problems and never have A's, but everything impacts different prople in different ways.

[This message edited by nothereorthere at 2:00 AM, April 15th (Thursday)]


Posts: 81 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlove - You are mistaking what compartmentalizing and integrating mean. Compartmentalization is a healthy, normal human mechanism to help you deal with daily situations. If you didn't compartmentalize, then when you got mad at your kid who spilled some milk, you would yell at your H, the bus driver, and your coworkers.

And, being integrated has nothing to do with being comfortable with all people in your life being in one room! It means being true to yourself, feeling safe in expressing your feelings and thoughts, not afraid to truly FEEL your feelings.

What the WS does is use compartmentalization to aid in the affair. That does need to stop. And integrating is a wonderful goal for all people.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
wincings_sparkle
♀ Member
Member # 27129
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

US: IMO There is a large difference between healthy and unhealthy compartmentalization. Unhealthy compartmentalization is where bad feelings are put away and not dealt with. Which is what I did. Integration is pulling all of the feelings and thoughts together to look at and work from a whole picture.

For me, becoming integrated was accepting each piece of myself, good and bad. For example: I was insecure in many situations and acted confident. I had to acknowledge my insecurity. Then, I had to accept it. The next step was reprogramming and learning to think in a healthy way.

It's HARD work. It's scary to examine yourself so closely. My mind literally rejected the idea that I wasn't "whole". It was confusing because I had to face emotions and thoughts that I thought I had already dealt with and I did not want to revisit them.

It was like learning to read a new language. I had to actively relearn the basic structure. I have to think in that "language" all the time to "rewire" my mind. Eventually it becomes second nature and natural.
There are times that I catch myself sliding back into compartmentalizing. When that happens I have to apply myself and the skills I have learned over the last 3 years to not regress.

[This message edited by wincings_sparkle at 11:01 AM, April 15th (Thursday)]


"When you hold resentment toward another, you are bound to that person or condition by an emotional link that is stronger than steel. Forgiveness is the only way to dissolve that link and get free."
- Catherine Ponder
Me-FWW. BH-wincing_at_light

Posts: 1594 | Registered: Jan 2010
heartache101
♀ Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SouthernGal

Oh doll I totally agree A MISTAKE?? WTF? You gotta be kidding me. A mistake is something you oopsie Did I do that. Sooo I guess Ooopssie his pecker got caught Huh??? Sorry that is how I look at it.

Card sooo right I wondered how he was playing the victim role. Found out he blames OW for all of it she started it flirty and touchy he just got caught. Yeah her husband figured it out and told him he had to tell me or her BH was. I see that light now. I was an idiot then. I am not now. My therapist said I would see the light and start being rationale when I am ready. I am seeing it now. And WOW! The shit runs deep!


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3140 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SouthernGal and heartache101,

Maybe the mistake is that period where a WS transitions from a slippery slope to that realization of "crap, I can't tell my BS about this". I get what you both are saying, that the A is not a mistake, but for many, myself included, and despite my previous posts..., there is a period where a WS does not realize what is happening and what it will lead to. Does that make sense? I look back and literally within a week I went from talking with an XHSGF about stuff that I would have shared with my BW and then BOOM, I hit that point where I realized I wouldn't share any of this with my BW. At that point I chose to have the A. If I would have told my BW at that point what had happened, I could have said it was a mistake.

Not the case for every situation.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
nothereorthere
♀ Member
Member # 20530
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me thinks Card started a debate in here. LOL

A "Mistake" is defined in the dictionary as "wrong". So, if a WS claims it was a mistake, I'd have to agree with them. Afterall, isn't an A wrong? Therefore, I don't think that makes them in denial, I think it means they get what they did is wrong. Now, isn't that a good thing?

[This message edited by nothereorthere at 11:37 AM, April 15th (Thursday)]


Posts: 81 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlove -

Wondering how WS or FWS when they own up to their compartmentalizing in order to do what they have done and are doing, how are they able to stop compartmentalizing and become integrated and whole?

For me, it was a matter of making the conscious decision to stop ignoring reality. Kind of like having a hallway that connects reality from fantasy. When you compartmentalize, you keep the light off in the hallway, and always keep one door closed while the other one is open.

When you make that decision to face reality head on, you turn on the light in the hallway and leave both doors wide open. It's a bit chaotic at first which is why it took me a while to get my feet underneath me and see the world for what it really was. I needed to let the inconsistencies between fantasy and reality surface at the same time, and to resolve them in my own mind.

The catalyst was seeing the pain in my BW's face.

The action was working in IC to let an independent third party question my own inconsistencies and force me to face them and deal with them.

The motivation became the positive results that happened every time I let reality win out over fantasy.

This might not be the case for every FWS, but it was for me.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SouthernGal - for me as a FWS, I have "packaged" my "series of wrongful, cruel, dishonest and amoral choices" as mistakes. Not because I see the word mistake as a way to minimize the harm I created. But for me, I needed to do that to establish the belief that I could be a good husband and father again. That I wasn't some awful, destructive monster who would choose the harmful course of an A over and over again because I had no honesty or morals within me.

Because of the emotions that run through everything associated with an A, word choice has a huge impact. Saying an A was a mistake to a BS can sound like the WS is dismissing it and trying to blame it on someone else. But telling a WS their actions were not a mistake can leave them feeling like there is no hope, because if they deliberately caused this much damage once they can and will do it again.

I've done too damn much work on myself in nearly three years to believe that I can become that person ever again. But unless I allow myself to believe that my A represented a mistake at one time in the choices I made and that the work I have done is what will ensure I will never make the mistake of making those same (or even similar) choices again, I am doomed to believe I am damaged goods that should be cast to the curbside forever.

I just can't bring myself to take that view. My BW deserves far better than that.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
SouthernGal
♀ Member
Member # 27315
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

there is a period where a WS does not realize what is happening and what it will lead to. Does that make sense?

I guess that does sort of makes sense. But honestly ... I don't think my FWH had a period where he didn't know what was happening. I believe, fully and completely, that he walked into his A with his eyes wide open.

His "it just happened" comment aside - I think he knew full well what he was doing.

I cannot write it off as something as simple as a mistake.

Yes, it was an error in judgment, but it was so much more than that.

The connotation of mistake is, "It's okay. Mistakes happen." Practically a "no harm no foul" connotation.

I mean when someone kills someone else with their vehicle they don't call it a mistake - they call it vehicular manslaughter.

I just cannot find a way to classify something as harmful and injurious as an affair as a "mistake."

Maybe I'm being short-sighted or unfair. But whenever I hear "It was a mistake" it sounds like justification and minimalization.

Perhaps when I am further out than 2 short months I will see it differently. But here and now? It sounds like excuse making and self-justification.


BS (Me) XWH (him) M nearly 16 yrs
1 DD (teens)
D-day #1 12/09, #2 2/10
Divorced 10/6/10

Posts: 3862 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: The Deep (Fried) South
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For some WS's it is clearly not a mistake. With my FWW she planned to have a "fling". When a friend and her daughter told her she deserved to be happy she told them of her plan. There was no slippery slope, at least not for AP#1. She used him to prove to herself that she was still attractive, desireable, etc. Unfortunately he did not make her happy either, so on to AP#2...

She now talks about how it was all a mistake, but the mistake was her thinking it was my job to make her happy. The A? It was planned.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

US: IMO There is a large difference between healthy and unhealthy compartmentalization. Unhealthy compartmentalization is where bad feelings are put away and not dealt with. Which is what I did. Integration is pulling all of the feelings and thoughts together to look at and work from a whole picture.

Wincings_sparkle said it much better than I did!


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 2:15 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mistake

This comes up every now and again. What we decided last time was that the dictionary definition, i.e., the denotation, of "mistake" is accurate. However, the connotation, the current cultural acceptance of a definition, implies something small or accidental.

So, we will go with the connotation of "mistake" and not use it in the context of infidelity.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UnExpectedSong I'm thankful for your clarification of;
So, we will go with the connotation of "mistake" and not use it in the context of infidelity.

Funny thing is... Most if not all BS'es get this..... but FWS's.. not so much!


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, April 15th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

there is a period where a WS does not realize what is happening and what it will lead to. Does that make sense?

Not so much...

I have yet to see a single affair where the wayward was open and honest with their spouse about everything they were discussing with the AP....

Lack of boundaries and a secret seperate life usually lead to the A before the AP ever shows up! (just my opinion!)

All affairs involve keeping secrets right from the start....

And All waywards KNOW they are keeping secrets from their spouse.

Keeping secrets was never a mistake it was intentional!! KWIM

[This message edited by Card at 2:49 PM, April 15th (Thursday)]


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
tennispro4
♀ Member
Member # 27842
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, April 16th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need WS perspectives.

I posted questions about my sitch a few days ago on here, thank you so much to those who answered.

We will be starting MC next week, but as far as I know NC has not been established (OW is co-worker). I asked WH Monday night to do NC and he said no. Over the past few days we've had some good conversations over email, he has expressed that he thought I was not happy with him anymore (more in post on JFO). I responded that I had been happy with him and that I wanted to try to R, etc. I think we had some good, honest and open conversation, and I got the impression he thinks so too.

Now, my question. I am really bothered that he never agreed to NC, especially since they are co-workers and I imagine them sitting around hanging out all day long. I sent him the link to the WS faqs on Monday but I don't know if he really read them, he says he's been looking stuff up and it was the same stuff he's found. So I was thinking of sending him an article or faq from SI, something more direct and on point, discussing how important NC is to R, and how his feelings of being 'in love' with OW more than me aren't really as real as he thinks they are. Do you think this would be a good idea in any way, maybe give him a new perspective on some things, or do you think this will be seen by him as pushy and annoying and drive him away?

Thanks, and thanks WSes for answering all the BS questions on here.


I don't know if I'll make it, but watch how good I'll fake it

Posts: 1140 | Registered: Mar 2010
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, April 16th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SouthernGal -

Perhaps when I am further out than 2 short months I will see it differently. But here and now? It sounds like excuse making and self-justification.

This is probably the crux of the matter. We can argue semantics all we want. What matters for you is how you receive the message. So if you told me the word mistake comes across to you as minimizing, the corresponding action that would show I cared would be for me to stop calling it a mistake. One of those examples of how actions reflect the true intent of the person.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, April 16th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tennispro4 -

Do you think this would be a good idea in any way, maybe give him a new perspective on some things, or do you think this will be seen by him as pushy and annoying and drive him away?

First, it's all about consequences in the early going. He refused to go NC? What is that consequence of that choice? If there is none, or if the result is more begging and pleading from you, he'll continue to have contact since he loses nothing in the process.

You cannot control his actions, only your own. For me, knowing that D papers would be drawn up if I didn't follow my BW's needs was plenty of consequence to shake enough of the fog off for me to do what she asked. I was to find counseling. I was to go NC and stay off of the site where I got into the problem in the first place. I was to read "After the Affair" and talk with her about each chapter as we finished them. These were things she needed to step by step restore any level of faith in me.

So the first thing you need to decide is what you will do if he continues to tell you "no" to your request for NC. If I were you, I'd at least be 180'ing him. I'd probably even meet with an attorney and have papers drawn up if he was that emphatic about it.

Sharing content with him from SI will be ok, but I wouldn't expect much of a reaction from him. First of all if he refuses NC he's still very foggy. Instead of articles that talk about how fake the feelings are waking him up, he'll argue his situation is different. A WS has to come to the conclusion that the fog blinded them to reality on their own. No other person can force them to see it.

The importance of NC is fine. It would be even better if he could join and post in the Wayward Forum, since we can give him feedback based on how he sees things and our own experience.

I wish you well in your efforts...


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
tennispro4
♀ Member
Member # 27842
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, April 16th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks LC.

You're right, there is no consequence to not having NC, unfortunately he is currently staying with family (his choice, not mine) so I don't even know what to use as a consequence. He didn't even give me a chance to throw him out!

When he left I tried to get him to see the consequences of what would happen if we D, I told him I would not hide the reason for the D, would take our cats (we don't have kids), basically he would lose everything. His response was essentially, fine, he deserved to lose everything. I think he is so down on himself right now that if I threatened D he would agree to it because he feels he deserves to lose everything. And I don't want to D right now, and I don't want to threaten things I won't follow through on.

I'm just not sure what will shake him out of the fog at this point...


I don't know if I'll make it, but watch how good I'll fake it

Posts: 1140 | Registered: Mar 2010
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