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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's IV
srb1608
♀ Member
Member # 19477
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, April 22nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok, this question is probably one i know the answer too, but here goes. I can not get H to admit that he "enjoyed" sex with the last OW he had. I dont think he is trying to just make me feel better because he came clean on sex details that he knew would hurt me. He says with this one(it started while into R) we had worked so hard on our marriage, he had so much guilt that IT wouldnt work about 40% of the time and he was nervous because of the places and times it took place. Says the act itself wasnt enjoyable but just the excitement of getting away with something he wasnt suppose to do (working on that in IC). Now that it has all came to light he looks at OW and is basically repulsed.

He didnt have these function issues with the other OW before we started R he admits so do you think i should believe what he says about this OW?

This doesnt bother me much anymore, but does cross my mind some.


BS- me 37
WS -him 37
Married 13 years

Posts: 2220 | Registered: May 2008
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, April 22nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tennispro -

What is going through his mind? Will anything get him out of the fog?

This is why I feel IC for the WS is more critical than MC up front. The WS has to be challenged one on one in a safe environment to start to see the truth. MC is not a safe environment for the WS, especially early on. For me, our first MC sessions felt like I was being attacked two on one (my BW and the MC), so I leaned toward getting defensive. It wasn't until my IC worked with me to see my true self that I started to see things they way the were instead of how I fooled myself into thinking they were.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
PDOFF!
♀ Member
Member # 28079
Default  Posted: 5:07 AM, April 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PDOFF -

Can someone please tell me why WS continues to lie about his A and things that he did whilst in the 'fog' even though he is now apparently out of the 'fog', truely remorseful and 'desperately trying to make things right'?

A couple of things come to mind. First, I have been a conflict avoider for much of my life. I'm still not perfect at overcoming it but through IC focused on that issue I have been able to develop some better approaches. In many cases, the lies from a WS are to avoid the conflict that will inevitably happen when they bring up painful or controversial information. If this hasn't been addressed, you may need to start there.

The other big reason for the lies would be fear of consequences. Here it would probably make sense to establish some form of "amnesty talk". Basically, encourage your WS to "rip the whole bandaid off" and agree that once you have successfully talked through the issues you won't be punishing them for the same offense over and over again. If there is a comfort level that painful information can be shared without it becoming ammo for the next 20 years, it can make it easier to talk about

.


Thanks muchly for your reply. My f(?)WS is definitely a conflict avoider! I've been reading Gary Chapmans - The 5 Love Languages. WS 'love language' is words of affimation. Until last night I hadn't realised how much he actually needs this. He said through tears, that when I'm expressing displeasure he 'hears' I don't love you anymore.

That's really sad. Of course it's largely due to his parents giving him any praise or showing any affection. BUT it's something that he desperately needs now.

My problem is this - he has had a PA for over a year - I am exceptionally P OFF! Incredibly hurt, and very confused.

HOW can we resolve this with WS need for positives and my need to express hurt?????????


BS - me 37 WH- 41
PA 9th may 09 -1st april 10
Married 19yrs together 21
Ds -4 Dd -2
D-Day #1 26th July 2009
D-Day #2 30th September 2009 same ow
D-Day #3 1st April 2010 same
"Love grows where trust is laid & love dies where trust is betr

Posts: 659 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: UK
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, April 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PDOFF! -

HOW can we resolve this with WS need for positives and my need to express hurt?????????

Your WH needs to address the need for external validation in IC. Lack of self esteem and needing others to perk up your opinion of yourself is something that only he can fix. IC can do wonders there, especially if it's focused directly on that issue.

In addition, I found "The Assertiveness Workbook" by Randy Paterson a great resource. It took me a looonnnggg time to read, which is usually an indicator for me that it's getting to the core of me. As one example of something that helped me, here are some of the things the book reminds you about when receiving negative feedback:

Relax. Avoid retaliation. Hold back. Consider your safety. Don't demand perfection. Validate their perception. Validate their emotions. Agree in part. Listen and wait. Narrow and specify. Ask for clarification. Explain without offering excuses. Don't try to change their mind. Thank the critic. Respond to the style. Ask for time.

Obviously, there is a build up to preparing yourself for being ready for this. Also, there is detail and examples beyond these headers that explain how it can be done. But you get the idea. This is a terrific resource to address both low self esteem and conflict avoidance at the same time.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, April 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tennispro4,
Keeping at MC probably won't help much. It may get him to be more introspective if he tends to be that kind of guy. Have you 180'd him?

Is D really a one-way street for you? The 180 is for you, not him, but it sometimes has the effect of jolting a WS out of their fog.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6051 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
heartache101
♀ Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, April 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WS I have a sex fantasy question of types.
If you would.

Do you fantasize about your OW while having sex with your BS? Have you fantasized about another person in real life while having sex with your BS?
This is mainly directed at the male WS. I understand supposedly their sex is more fantasy then emotion so I was just curious how many males are fantasizing about the OW and real life persons vs the TV and magazine type made up type of people? KWIM?
I am not intending on inflicting pain to any BS by asking this question I have oftened wondered if a WS would be thinking of the OW while being intimate with his spouse.

I did not get an answer so I am bumpin this. I would appreciate any thoughts on this... Thank YOU..


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3141 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
PDOFF!
♀ Member
Member # 28079
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, April 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ListeningClosely - Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my question. I will definitely look that book up!

In addition, I found "The Assertiveness Workbook" by Randy Paterson a great resource. It took me a looonnnggg time to read, which is usually an indicator for me that it's getting to the core of me. As one example of something that helped me, here are some of the things the book reminds you about when receiving negative feedback:

Much thanks


BS - me 37 WH- 41
PA 9th may 09 -1st april 10
Married 19yrs together 21
Ds -4 Dd -2
D-Day #1 26th July 2009
D-Day #2 30th September 2009 same ow
D-Day #3 1st April 2010 same
"Love grows where trust is laid & love dies where trust is betr

Posts: 659 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: UK
queneanth
♀ Member
Member # 15816
Default  Posted: 5:14 PM, April 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just posted on General about finding out (supposedly) how my FWH's previous marriage ended-his infidelity. I don't know what to beleive...he adamantly denied it after DDay when asked, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt, as the source was biased.

ai always heard that the ex was contolling, nagging, etc...but took it with a grain of salt. But no one I know has a high opinion of her-not even her own kids who come over to relax. But, I still always gave her the benefit of the doubt, having been the Mom raising kids and setting rules.

But now, with two people stating this, one unbiased, one not, WHY LIE TO ME?????Why would you, as a WS, fabricate and re-write history of a previous marriage??


"The hardest thing in life to learn, is which bridge to cross and which bridge to burn."

Posts: 560 | Registered: Aug 2007 | From: in between
queneanth
♀ Member
Member # 15816
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, April 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just want to clarify, I was NOT involved with him during his marriage-I met him WAY after-he had been separated for three years and living on his own and dating; and when we met, his Ex-wife was already engaged to be married. In fact, I didn't move in with him until a year later. One month after his divorce (which was stalled due to a property issue), she married her fiancee. I didn't want anyone to think I was an OW!


"The hardest thing in life to learn, is which bridge to cross and which bridge to burn."

Posts: 560 | Registered: Aug 2007 | From: in between
floridaredman
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, April 24th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

heartache101,

I do not fantasize about the OW during love making with my wife. I am indifferent about the OW. Her name or anything that reminded me of her gives me no feelings. It's like looking at a blank piece of paper, nothing there. I personally tend to feel guilty about fantasizing about someone else other than the one I'm with. For me, if I have to fantasize about someone else to stay turned on other than the one I'm with, I have to question myself why am I with that person in the first place.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2412 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
littlebarbrat
♀ Member
Member # 28291
Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, April 24th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This may be in here somewhere but I can't seem to find. 4 months after D day and WH still does not see what he did as an affair. He says it was a friendship that "may" have crossed the line. He states no sex no affair and not an emotional affair either since he does not love her or even like. She was in his words, a breath of fresh air. I am about halfway through not just friends by shirley glass. I would like him to read it but have no idea on how to approach him so that he doesn't get angry about my "obsession" with his mistake.

Any advise would be appreciated.


BS Me:30
WS Him: 40
2 healthy, active boys.

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing
Just praying to a God that I don't believe in
'cause I got time while she got freedom
'cause when a heart breaks no it don't break ev


Posts: 75 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Kentucky
floridaredman
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, April 24th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

littlebarbrat,

It is never wise to try to "educate" a wayward if they do not already see the error of their ways. It will always be met with opposition and justification.

Try this approach;

Tell him to "flip the script". In other words ask him if you did what he did, what would he call it if you said and did the same things with another man that he did with his other woman. Tell him don't answer you right away, but think about it. Ask him if he was able to hear what you said the way he said it to the other woman, how would he feel.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2412 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
littlebarbrat
♀ Member
Member # 28291
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, April 24th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would really just like him to read it so that if we decide to R, he will know what red flags to look for because if this "friendship" went this far, does the next one get her pregnant.
I was thinking of telling him that I am trying to affair proof our M for the future and kind of hoping after he starts reading, he will at the very least see how if feels for me even if he doesn't see what he did as affair.
Just seem to be confused. I have seen a number of W's say this book helped them understand their partners perception and reaction but I don't know when to approach him to read it.


BS Me:30
WS Him: 40
2 healthy, active boys.

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing
Just praying to a God that I don't believe in
'cause I got time while she got freedom
'cause when a heart breaks no it don't break ev


Posts: 75 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Kentucky
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, April 24th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

littlebarbrat,

As floridaredman says, if he doesn't see that anything is wrong, he will keep responding like he does currently.

I also agree that turning the tables could help. Ask him if he would have said/shared everything with OW if you were standing in the same room.

I had relationships similar to what your WH thinks he has, just normal friends that seem like a breath of fresh. These did set the stage for the EA that did occur. So your idea to affair-proof the M now is a good one. He is on the slippery slope and needs to establish boundaries. He needs to not turn to OW to share things. He needs to turn to you.

Ask him to only communicate with her if you are with him, whether it's a phone call, texting, IM'ing, emails, get-togethers, it doesn't matter. See what hiw reaction is. If he says no, then it is a problem. If he says yes, it still is potentially a huge problem, but hopefully, if you did actually accompany him on one of his interactions, he will begin to understand that he can't be the him that he likes with her when you are there.

This may not be the best advice, but it might get your WH to start understanding your concerns. Unfortunately it could drive the A underground.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6051 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
roccodom
♀ Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, April 26th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I asked this question back in February and did not get a response so here it is again as we just had the same dynamic happen last night.

I'm going to explain this the best I can - but it's complicated.

We are 18 months or so out. He has shown signifigant changes - better in many ways than he has ever been. And I make sure to let him know.

As time goes by - our conversations and confrontations about the A have diminished which I'm sure is common. But last night - I tried to talk with him about how I was feeling. In the past, we have had long conversations about how he feels attacked during these times. We've covered it in MC and on our own. It's been a problem for us for years. How do I talk to him. He has admitted that he's not sure there is a way to talk to him where he doesn't feel attacked.

So... I start off with telling him how wonderful I think he has been in the past few months and thank him for it. And that I just want to share with him what a difficult time I am having recently - feeling heart-broken, and having racing thoughts and just wonder whether I have all the pieces?

I can visibly see him withdraw from me and put up a wall.

I ask him whether I have the whole truth and whether there are lies of ommission. Very coldly he responds "You have the truth - what more do you want. Those lies were a function of being in an A. Could you find inconsistancies if you go over every detail - probably!"

I ask if other woman flirt with him and proposition him "Yes, all the time"

Ask if he approaches these situations and work differently because of the A and his understanding of it now - "No, I don't do anything differntly. I don't have some new way."

Ask if he thinks there is something he does to invite all the propositions since I find it unusual. His answer "No and I'm sorry you think it's so unusual"

Really this is just an example of how these conversations go. He is almost defiant and provacative on purpose. It's very hurtful, but it's as if any conversation is adversarial and so that is his posture and that is how he reacts to questions.

I will tell you, I am very careful as to how I speak. I try never to be accusatory.

This is just one topic - he does this about everything.

Then - he'll come back later and tell me he is sorry and talk about the subject or not.

I can't understand why he would be so hurtful when he has seemed remorseful and caring.

He will often throw in there, "We are better now so it's not an issue (the other woman at work)"

This irritates me because for 4 years before the affair (ever since he came home from Iraq) - I tried to talk to him. I knew something was going on with him. And talking to him was like talking to him last night. NOt about US, but about him acting as if he were attacked and thus spiteful, rude, adversarial comments.

I am trying to work on bringing up my difficulties with him because our MC tells me I can't suppress all of this. I need to get it out and share with him so he can help. But it scares the crap out of me that I am going to get THAT person.

I will say that he has improved this and more often is open. But what do I take from these difficult conversations? Is that the truth? Is that how he feels? It just undercuts everything? Please help me understand.

I guess my questions are - is this common in men or FWS? My real fear is that at different times he tells me what I want to hear and that the rude behavior is REALLY THE TRUTH? Is anyone else this hurtful? Has he gone back into a fog? After a period of time - do FWS seem to revert?


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
floridaredman
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, April 26th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

roccodom

I guess my questions are -

is this common in men or FWS?

I see that your DDays were 2 years ago. I know that feels like a long time,but in reference to R it is still somewhat short.

No this is not a common response. I am tending to believe that your husband has a hard time dealing with the shame of what he has done. Bringing it back up reminds him of how horrible he was back then and he is embarrassed. So his response is a defense mechanism to get you to back off.

Humility plays a big part for a WS if R is going to happen. You must be willing to face that, yes I did do that, I was horrible and I am ashamed of that. However your WH must not let his shame make him feel that he is under attack. It is simply you trying to understand WHY? Which either does not really know or he does know and is ashamed of the answers.

My real fear is that at different times he tells me what I want to hear and that the rude behavior is REALLY THE TRUTH? Is anyone else this hurtful?

I was not that way. I was remorseful and answered my wife's questions honestly and truthfully. I was ashamed, but I knew she hurt more than I was ashamed..so she needed my answers to heal.
Again, his rudeness is a defense mechanism to get you to back off. He is not comfortable baring his raw soul. Maybe because he doesn't like what's there.

Has he gone back into a fog? After a period of time - do FWS seem to revert?

If he is still in contact with anyone he had the affair with work wise, yes he could be tipping back into the fog. His waffling behavior could be from that if he sees a former affair partner on a constant basis.

NC is essential for waywards. It is like an alcoholic who has gone sober. If he works in a bar he will be tempted and most likely drink again..

If your H is not in contact with anyone, then I will say that he is having a difficult time facing his own demons and until he does..he will continue to lash out at you because he doesn't want to face them. He knows he should.

Have you tried asking him for a timeline or putting your questions on paper so he could answer them and then you two could discuss them at a set date?

[This message edited by floridaredman at 12:17 PM, April 26th (Monday)]


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2412 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
nothereorthere
♀ Member
Member # 20530
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, April 26th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Tell him to "flip the script".

I have tried doing this when I trigger and my FWS tells me I can trust him and gets mad because I don't always trust him since he had his A. His answer is that he dosen't think he would react like me. Feels like manipulation to me, am I right? Also, feels like he dosen't get it. Why would he tell me I should just trust him after he cheated and lied to me?

[This message edited by nothereorthere at 12:18 PM, April 26th (Monday)]


Posts: 81 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
Crickey
♀ Member
Member # 27434
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, April 26th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WH still has feelings for OW. It hurts. Is true R even possible if he still has feelings for her? It makes me feel like there is still a 3rd party in our M.


Staying together and getting better....most days.

Women are angels, and when someone breaks our wings,we continue to fly...on a broomstick. We're flexible like that.

Posts: 205 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: United States
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, April 26th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

roccodom,

I don't have much to add to what floridaredman says, but I just wanted to let you know that it isn't this way with all WS. There have been things here or there that I have gotten defensive about, but I don't believe I have been rude or hurtful as you describe your WH doing to you.

Write stuff out. Let him answer it on your own time.

I can't recall what you have and haven't done to date, but some actions by you might knock some sense into him. Defensiveness in a WS is normal, but the WS should be able to get over their own defensiveness eventually and be able to see that they need to put the needs of their BS first.

Reverting? Always a possibility. I know your example conversation in your post is that, just an example, but he shouldn't be saying these things.

It just sounds like he isn't getting it. He still doesn't understand how much he screwed up and how much it is affecting YOU. He needs to get over himself...


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6051 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
floridaredman
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, April 26th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have tried doing this when I trigger and my FWS tells me I can trust him and gets mad because I don't always trust him since he had his A. His answer is that he dosen't think he would react like me. Feels like manipulation to me, am I right? Also, feels like he dosen't get it. Why would he tell me I should just trust him after he cheated and lied to me?

It appears your H is not actively putting himself in your shoes. His answer is a gaslight. Unfortunately, until he can really see the damage he has done..he won't get it. It is severely illogical to trust someone once they have done you harm.

Once trust is broken, it has to be earned back. Not given freely.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2412 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
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