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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's IV
hopefulwife1985
♀ Member
Member # 29216
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, September 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

the harder he tries to remember the more blank he goes
.

I think this excuse might be valid depending upon the scope and context.

Everyone's had the experience of trying remember something that keeps slipping out of reach when you know you know it.

My A was a traumatic event for me, and trauma operates the same way on a wayward's psyche as it does on anyone else. People sometimes have a hard time remembering the details of traumatic events because they are too painful to process. I am a people.

I haven't been asked for any details, but in the process of trying to gather them should I be asked, there is an astonishing amount that I can't remember but if I consciously try to relax and turn my mind elsewhere, it usually will come to me. But not always.

It also may depend on your WS's age. It seems like most of the people on here are in their thirties. Hate to break it to you kiddos, but memory does, in fact, deteriorate.


Posts: 124 | Registered: Aug 2010
Mrs Panda
♀ Member
Member # 27303
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, September 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it truly possible for him to forget? I understand dates and exact conversation but sexual acts? Where? How many times? Sexting? Content of photos sent back and forth?

I asked the other waywards this question a while back "Remember the details." I don't know how to pull up old thread, sorry.

I can remember all the details, if I want to, but 2 years later they are finally fading, thank God. The details were more engrained and vivid due to the excitement of the A. That activtes neural release of dopamine and helps memories to form more strongly.

Others I have heard sometimes forget due to medications, psychiatric disorders, or perhaps just "blocking it out."

From what you wrtoe, if his responses are "why do you want to know" he is probably withholding from you. It is your choice how much you want to know, so just be careful if you get into the sexual details. That stuff can be so incredibly hurtful and hard to erase.

Polygraph?


Me-41 FWW Him-44BH
M 13years. Reconciled.
DDay#1 Nov 2008 (OM2)
DDay#2 Aug 2009 (Confessed to OM 2001)
"The only thing permanent is change." Dr Charles Mayo,1930

Posts: 1943 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: The SouthEast
getting real
♀ Member
Member # 28912
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, September 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it truly possible for him to forget?

For me, there's a desire to compartmentalize the A now that it is over. I'm only a few months from the end of it, but I have this internal drive to distance myself from it. It almost feels like a dream, or a novel I read, or something that happened in another life... I find myself struggling to recall details, and then suddenly something will rise up out of the depths and trigger the hell out of me.

I have some FOO issues that I think contributed to this, most significantly abuse that was swept under the rug. Compartmentalization is an unhealthy coping mechanism for stuff that seems too emotionally overwhelming to deal with. In the present, I am working to break old patterns. There will be no rug sweeping this time.

I would add to this that "I don't remember" can definitely also be a means of stonewalling or dodging questions for a WS.


Me: WW, 34 Him: BH, 34 -- StillGoing
2 kids, ages 9 and 5
1.5 year EA/PA
D-day 5/01/10

Ain't it funny how we pretend we're still a child
Softly stolen under our blanket skies
And rescue me from me and all that I believe


Posts: 184 | Registered: Jun 2010
Blindbat
♀ Member
Member # 29495
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, September 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@ Hope24

Thanks for your detailed reply. I dare say there is no logical answer, but I'm struggling with my WH struggling with why he did this.

He's keen to get into IC (getting an appointment is the problem), he's saying lots of the right things and doing some of them, and our emotional intimacy is better than it's been for ages. However, he can't or won't sever contact with the OW and claims he feels unable to until he's spoken to a counsellor or psychiatrist to find out why, and won't commit even to trying until then either; he says he's 99% certain he wants to stay in the marriage because he loves me but wants to eliminate the possibility that it's just out of fear; he says he wants to make sure he's staying for the right reasons.

For various reasons too complex to go into, I truly don't think it's as simple as gaslighting, he's in too bad a mental and physical state for it to be a simple case of cake man, and his actions also contradict a conclusion of cake man. He's clearly at least as screwed up as I am, if not more.

He says he knows the A isn't reality and even if he did go off with her it would implode within a couple of months, but he says he has a strong emotional connection with her - although it was a PA, the EA side of it seems to be the bit that's problematic. Clearly he also has a v strong emotional connection with me too.

He knows he's not coming on holiday with me next week if he's still in contact with her yet it doesn't seem to be enough to get him to extricate himself. He himself can't (or won't) answer why he seems unable to sever contact when he knows it's not going anywhere.

How long am I supposed to put up with this when he's doing (almost) everything right except NC? (I should add that the EA side he says started about 7 months ago, I reckon more like 8-10, the physical as far as I can make out involved 2 ONS's one month apart in the late winter, then exploded into a full-blown intense PA in mid-May, D-day was mid August). Does anyone have any thoughts?

[This message edited by Blindbat at 3:12 PM, September 11th (Saturday)]


Noli illegitimi carborundum
Not yet as divorced as I'd like to be :-(

Posts: 713 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: The Land of Chocolate
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, September 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blindbat - You either accept that you are sharing your husband or you kick him out until he agrees to go NC. You cannot control him. You only can control what you are willing to put up with.

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 8:54 AM, September 12th (Sunday)]


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
anotherstatistic
♀ Member
Member # 26184
Default  Posted: 8:23 PM, September 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you guys so much for your input. It looks like its a mixed bag but leans more so to the side of "he's full of sheeeit"...

This is a man who can remember Football stats for specific players who played before he was born...He is 41 but can still remember specific stories from his childhood and teenaged years, something i am incapable of doing myself...lol.

He has also told me that he is afraid to say yes or no for fear that when i ask the same question later he'll give another answer????? (this one really got me)

I caught him in a blatant lie and he back peddled out of it...it didnt hit me till days later that it didnt sit right. I asked OW about it and she told me the truth, when I confronted him it was devestating. Not just because of what he lied about but that he bold face lied to me and he almost got away with it. I think this is what that above fear comes from. He knows he has more lies and doesnt want to get busted cause he knows i am burning every word into my head now (i am one to let things fall out of my brain to save space...lol) and he knows that i dont "keep score" and collect things to pull out as weapons later.

I have made some small discoveries recently that just dont jive with me. A year later and im not sure i have it in me to bother getting into it with him. I have brought it up however, and he has ignored me. Literally just blown it off. we have hardly talked in two days because of it. I refuse to converse with him when my questions go unaddressed, so 180 again...

I did make him go over it all with me again just recently (only the 3rd time since dday, too) and he was less able to recall than ever. Not even details he had already mentioned. He has never given me anything on his own. Only when I have "forced" it out of him. He calls me an interogator...i always giggle inside at that one.

Do I give up now? Is it a lost cause? I am so sick to my stomach again. UGH!


Me-BS 36 Him-WS 41 (just plain wrong)
hisD-17, myS-13, ourD-3, ourD-born 3/17/10
D-day- 7/29/09

Posts: 397 | Registered: Nov 2009
Hope24
♀ Member
Member # 9344
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, September 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@ blindbat

How long am I supposed to put up with this when he's doing (almost) everything right except NC?

Not another moment. IMHO, he's not doing *anything* right if he won't go NC.

This is the definition of cake-eating, my dear. He's not committing to you or the OW. He refuses to make a decision.

He has somehow gaslighted you into believing that he has serious psychological issues that prevent him from breaking it off.

I cry "foul" on that.

Time for you to play hard ball.

You are sharing your husband. You deserve so much more than that.


She packed up her potential and all she had learned and headed out to change a few things.

Posts: 7603 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Poolside
Blindbat
♀ Member
Member # 29495
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, September 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He has somehow gaslighted you into believing that he has serious psychological issues that prevent him from breaking it off.

Actually he hasn't despite his best attempts - I told him straight off that that one wouldn't wash He tried to claim he would go NC if that was what the doc advised, but if the doc advised he needed to talk things out with the OW he would do so. Yeah, right.

He's due home later this evening (no idea when, the later he is the less optimistic I am) but I've drafted a letter to him basically saying separate until you can NC. Not sure when or if I'll send/give it to him, but it will also depend whether he takes the opportunity he has tonight or tomorrow to "do the right thing". If he does, then no need to send, if not, then it's only a question of timing. I want to be very sure I'm truly committed to my course of action before I do anything irreversible, especially since patience isn't really one of my virtues, but I'm reaching the end of my tether. The time for tough love is approaching very fast, methinks.


Noli illegitimi carborundum
Not yet as divorced as I'd like to be :-(

Posts: 713 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: The Land of Chocolate
lostall
♀ Member
Member # 6490
Default  Posted: 6:07 AM, September 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

From what I see there has been no answer yet to Gardenmom's Q. Although I did not reconcile, I will try to answer as best I can:

>>>Did anyone go through a phase or something where you kinda self sabotaged the R process?? Like making bad choices, being unavailable emotionally, ... [snip] He is not back in affair mode, but I am not sure what is up. He keeps saying nothing he is doing is good enough. ( I honestly don't see what he is doing other than ending affair 3 months ago) <<<

It sounds to me like he is not willing/able to put in the hard work of R, yet doesn't want to come right out and say so.

First thing would be to call him on his behavior. Simply tell him that you see he is: 1. not putting in a real effort to R and 2. not coming right out to tell you he won't try to R.

Don't let him wiggle out of this: if he says you're imagining things, or if he says nothing he does is good enough, don't engage. Just simply state his behavior and state that you see it.

Next, ask him why. Why is he not putting in the effort to R? Is it because he really doesn't want to R? Or is he afraid - and if so, exactly what is he afraid of? Tell him to think about it, and set a date and time that you'll talk about it and you expect an answer.

Make it a date, preferable for the two of you in some quiet environment, and then let him answer. Don't accept wishy washy stuff - let him know you expect a real, thought-out answer.

Chances are, he is acting on fear and half thought-out impulses alone and he will only actually stop and think when you give him that little nudge.

Hope this helps.


FWS
Divorced

Posts: 960 | Registered: Feb 2005 | From: Europe
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, September 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

13 months out & I can't stop thinking about "their" relationship.

For investigative reasons I am fb friends with OW - tho she doesn't realize it. So, I am bombarded with photos of her - everyone of which is sexier than the next.
She loved him. He said he loved her, but denies it. Either way - they snuck around for 1 1/2 years before I caught them. So, the attachment, whatever you want to call it, was certainly there - as was the compatibility.
I just can't stop thinking - why would he want to R - I was not being affectionate & caring to him before the A (neither was he. I was exhaused with work/kids and he didn't seem to give a shit so I emotionally & physically checked out- sex was probably every other week if I could avoid it for that long.)
Now - we are both making more of an effort to be kind & attentive & we are having sex 3-4x/wk - but to be honest - I'm usually not that into it because my feelings for him remain damaged. I'm sure he is aware of this.
OW would take him back in a heartbeat and doesn't seem like she's moved on. (Even bought him a cell phone after DDay & they remained in contact for 2 wks til I caught them again.)
So - and PLEASE BE HONEST- what possible reason could a WS (who is transparent & has given up going out sociall yfor the most part, but not exactly the poster child for a remorseful WS) have to R under such circumstances. I know he loves me. I know he prefers to have an intact family (tho he knows I would never do anything to interfere with his relationship with the kids). But, it just seems to me that he had a great, fun exciting relationship with a much younger, sexier woman who absolutely adored him - why would he really want to be with me - older, but still attractive - but not the kind of person that exudes sex like OW (and btw is not a skank,at all. She works & is good at her job. She appears to be a devoted mother, etc.)AND I'm just not that "into" him at the moment, tho he knows I love him. (We've spent most of our lives together.)
I guess my thinking is that he had certain needs - the thrill, the adoration - the great sex - that he's not going to get with me because our relationship was strained pre-A and remains damaged to date. Seriously - I'm not going to ever look at him again like he's the best thing that ever happened to me - so if that was something that is important enough to him to have an A - how could he resign himself to such a fate by R with me?


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, September 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgoodnamesgone - Maybe he still loves you.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
onlysolution
♀ Member
Member # 23160
Default  Posted: 4:40 PM, September 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

why would he really want to be with me - older, but still attractive - but not the kind of person that exudes sex like OW

There are many different parts to love and a relationship. He probably did find something with this OW, but there are probably many parts to your relationship with him that he has realized that he cannot give up. Friendship, stability, shared memory, companionship, trust, life-long partnership....all these things are difficult to replace even when someone at first seems exciting and fun.


FWW: Me 52
BH: 54
Married 34 years
Recovery - Over 4 years

Posts: 448 | Registered: Mar 2009
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 6:10 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for your responses. It is a comfort and I appreciate it.
I feel myself detaching - not all the way - but I know I'm not in this R 100%. I tried to explain it to my H last night - that I feel like I have to be ready to leave this relationship at any given moment (meaning that there's a breach in NC or another A, etc.) so I can't get too comfortable. (I realize this is not a health approach. I'm working on it.) That my H had a 1+ year affair and I didn't know really blows away my ability to trust my judgment. Sure, he acts different after Dday - things are definitely better - but for 2wks after DDay he maintained contact with OW & I had no idea - no apparent difference in my H's behavior - so who's to say that's not happening now?
On top of it all, my H doesn't openly discuss feelings, so most of our talks are 1 way - with me just putting it out there - how I feel or what I think we should do etc without much feedback .
Anyhoo.... the saga continues. But, thanks for the comforting words again.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
nofun
♀ Member
Member # 24546
Default  Posted: 6:34 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

allgood = my H stayed in contact with OW for 2 weeks after dday and when I found out I went balistic. I believe they have been NC since.

Maybe OW isn't really what you perceive her to be. I had a perception of OW that wasn't reality. Your H is with you because YOU are the one he loves. I still have a hard time with this also. And it's doubly hard when H doesn't express their feelings. I totally understand what you are going through.


BS (me) 56
WH 61
M 36 yrs
OW - 55 - Howdy Doody Look Alike
3 Awesome Adult C
DD 6/7/09
LTA 12 years.
Confused: D or R???

Posts: 987 | Registered: Jun 2009
DevastatedUKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 29109
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, September 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi there. I just wondered whether any WSs experience this/have a similar thought process.
I can easily associate EVERYTHING in the whole world with the OW (a bit like a 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon type of thing) no matter how tenuous the link. FWF on the other hand dissociates everything from her. FWF tells me he never wants to think about her again however we are learning the lessons from the A and not rug sweeping or anything.

So, for example, if I hear about a band that, through facebook stalking the OW, I know the OW likes, that band will then become a trigger for me and all I have to do is hear that bandís name and I will start obsessing about OW. FWF on the other hand can happily listen to that band and not make any association with OW (even though he knows subconsciously that OW likes them) or trigger at all (obviously I wouldnít come home from work to find him listening to a band he knows would be a trigger for me! Where he knows what my triggers are he tries his best to avoid them/protect me from them). I appreciate that compartmentalisation plays a big part in As.

Do any other WS out there find that they can do this at all? i.e listen to bands AP likes/eat food AP likes/talk about/to mutual friends of the AP etc etc and just see them for what they really are, separate entities to the AP?

Many thanks.



Me: BFiancee 31
Him: FWFiance 31
Together 12 years, engaged for the last 5
A = 4 ONS with same OW in 2008 (friends with 'benefits')
D-Day: End of Feb 2010

Posts: 143 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: UK
JustDone
♀ Member
Member # 9742
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, September 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do any other WS out there find that they can do this at all? i.e listen to bands AP likes/eat food AP likes/talk about/to mutual friends of the AP etc etc and just see them for what they really are, separate entities to the AP?

DevastatedUKgirl, yes I can do that. Believe it or not, if you stop watching the OW and don't see what she does like it will be a LOT easier. Time will fade her likes and preferences and replace it with your likes & preferences.

One day it will be just a band and just a place. My xOM lives in a State where my MIL lives and where we vacation. For a while I triggered while there, (I once even drove past his house!) now I don't. My xOM works in a city I frequent. It's just a City now.

Time (and distance) heals and I wish you the best.

-JD


Forgiveness is giving up the possibility of a better past.

Nobody forgets what happens, the secret is learning to live with it.


Posts: 2763 | Registered: Feb 2006
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, September 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dont know what to make of this.

Intercepted comment WW made to #1 GF.

Background. GF on #2 M. Pursued current H. Comments made by me WW about this make me think this was done so as to get health coverage and financial stability. WW tell this GF that I am a abusive H (not so) and that she was happier with OM than she could ever be with me. GF is allways complaining to WW about her current H. GF complains current H drinks to much and that he *stalks* her (remember this is her H).

Here is the comment from me WW to GF.

If ever another man starts chatting with you and seems nice and is available and doesn't drink -- I hope you pursue him. [GF H name] is such jerk
.

IMHO this seem to indicate WW believes A are at times justified.

WS opinions?

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3074 | Registered: Sep 2007
GroundZero
♀ Member
Member # 27853
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, September 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor - maybe there is context I don't have here, but I'd have to agree with you that it sounds like she still believes As are acceptable and/or justified in certain circumstances. More concerning for me is that it seems like she has the groundwork laid for that mentality to apply with you as well - e.g. you are abusive, and she cannot ever be as happy with you as she could be/was with OM.

Is she telling you these things or are you hearing them unvarnished through a VAR/email/keylogger? If she's telling you, WTF?

It does not sound to me like she has done the work within herself to fix herself - regardless of what she thinks about you. It sounds to me like she still has an effed up notion about whether As can be justified.

I can tell you without reservation/"fog"/revisionist history that my xH was a drunk and emotionally/sexually abusive at times. Not that he was without merit or that I did not contribute my own problems to our marriage. But NOTHING he did or didn't do justifies the choices I made. No matter how alone, scared, whatever I felt. Nothing.

Based on my own effed up thought processes back when I was involved in the A, it sounds like your WW is nowhere near that revelation herself and I'd venture to guess she isn't working toward it either.

Funny though that a prerequisite for her friend to pursue another man be that he

is available


Out of clutter, find simplicity; out of discord, find harmony; in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity. Einstein

Posts: 1777 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: Land of the Sweet Lovely Kiddos
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, September 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

groundzero.

The comment was intercepted via a keylogger. So I cant bring this up to her with out letting her know HOW I got the info.

WW and GF have many talking points. Sort of a *hate men* or *all evil in they lifes are caused by men* thing.

Right now I am working on HOW to perceive this new information. And what to do with it and about it.

Thanks for the reply.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3074 | Registered: Sep 2007
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, September 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DevastatedUKgirl -

if I hear about a band that, through facebook stalking the OW, I know the OW likes, that band will then become a trigger for me and all I have to do is hear that bandís name and I will start obsessing about OW. FWF on the other hand can happily listen to that band and not make any association with OW

I compartmentalize like that, but it is something I choose to do. For example, one thing the AP and I talked about is James Bond. Now, I love James Bond movies. I am not going to give up everything related to James Bond, even as a consequence of my bad behavior, because that gives too much power to the AP. If I did stop something I liked because of the AP, and if the AP ever found out (which would never happen!), he could interpret that action as, 'ah yes, I affected her so much that she had to stop doing ___ so that she wouldn't think of me anymore'. As it is, I don't think about the AP when I watch James Bond movies. I don't think about the AP in general.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
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