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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 5
SourCherryDrops
♂ Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 10:17 AM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guys, doesn't it concern you more that your WW ever had the capacity to cheat, than the worry that she might do so again?

The capacity to cheat means our wives looked at us with disrespect, in some cases, even disdain. That's the fundamental problem. That problem does not go away simply because they don't cheat in the future.

Ive known my wife for 15 years and for the first 10 she had me on a pedastal as much as i her... in the last 2 years before D'Day she was ... temporarily insane ...

Yes what she did was highly disrespectful...and showed a calous disdain for my feelings.... but she was compartmentalising, that part of her that was making those decisions was locked up in its own little seperate box... and kept strictly seperated from her life with me.

But even that aside i guess there are some fundamental beliefs underpinning my path

I believe that people can change, grow, develop, If they want to.

I believe that trust and respect can be regained.

And at the end of the day, I am willing to take the risk, i know i might be hurt again, but if R works then what i gain will be well worth it.

But i am also nobodys fool. I know that it will take a lot of effort from both of us. And that i will struggle along the way.

And if At the end it doesnt work out, and i cannot truely R, or she wanders again, then i know that i will be strong enough to walk the other path.

whats more i know that i will have my Si brothers here to listen and empathise should i need it.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SourCherryDrops,

I appreciate your perspective, with one caveat: I think you may be saying that because she compartmentalized, it was somehow less personally disrespectful to you.

She shelved you. She deliberately shelved you. It was not unconscious. She was not taken over by some alien spirit. She knew what she was doing. She WAS thinking of you when she cheated. She lied to your face about it, over and over. There is not one person who is your loving wife, and another who cheated on you. If that's really true, I'd run like hell.

I just get concerned when I get whiff of "compartmentalizing" being used to minimize the crime of infidelity.

I'm not saying she can't change. And it sounds like your eyes are wide open. I respect your brave decision to try and reconcile. I really hope it goes well.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 10:32 AM, May 7th (Friday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
Buzz09
♂ Member
Member # 25971
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guys, doesn't it concern you more that your WW ever had the capacity to cheat, than the worry that she might do so again?

The capacity to cheat means our wives looked at us with disrespect, in some cases, even disdain. That's the fundamental problem. That problem does not go away simply because they don't cheat in the future.

This is why I'm divorcing. I don't believe she can become a decent, moral person who treats me with respect, who deeply values my humanity

My XW said "it was totally out of character for her."

I bought into it at first. Until I found secret phones.


Me BH 40
WW 41

Posts: 648 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: buzz09
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IMHO compartmentalizing is a myth. I dont believe the human mind works like that.

If you were to steal some thing from the local store. Would you know that its wrong? Of course you would. But you might to it any way. If you did you were making a CHOICE knowing full well its wrong. You are choosing to do some thing that goes against you morals.

Of course there would be rationalizing going on. You would be telling you self that the proprietor was a rich man and what you are stealing would make no difference to him. May be you even resent the proprietor because he is rich in you view. And you would use this justification to do what you choose to do any way.

Our WW choose to betray us. They know full well that it is wrong. They know full well how disrespectful it is to us. May be this last add to the excitement of the betrayal.

They choose to do what they do. They know the hurt it will cause. They know it is wrong. They know the possible consequences. But they choose it any way.

I ask one time in the BS to WS question thread. Me question was completely mis understood and I got beat up about it. But me question related to that last point on that fabled slippery slope where a choice can be made. The mistake I made in me question was calling it the *get naked moment*. So all WS think I was asking a sex question. I was not. I was asking about that choice.

There is a point where one more choice remains. Up to then our WW could back away from the PA. But at the *get naked moment* there is no turning back. I ask about HOW they could make that choice at that time. And what was they thinking then? I never got a answer.

But it seem to me this is the moment of choice. And is a important question for the WS to answer. What allow them to choose that?

Not compartmentalization. They KNOW fully every thing about what they are about to do. They know the consequences. They know the pain. Sure they justify and think they wont get caught. But the know the nature of the choice they are about to make. and they CHOOSE it.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Finallyawake
♂ Member
Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Buzz,

Read your story. Just throwing some support your way.

When can we trust another woman, especially given the continual lies and betrayal that signified the end of our respective marriages?

I am way better too, but the thought of opening myself up to a woman again makes my skin crawl.

Sure, hang out, have a good time, but commitment? No time soon.

BTW, I just have to say it speaks volumes about you to say you miss your stepson. He deserved someone like you in his life.


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The core of my wife is what it was and is likely to stay like that forever. I have changed and am happy with who I am.

I have boiled my wife down to this. Selfish and anything to relieve the guilt. She transfers this to me and I refuse it.

Often in the past in my days since d-day i wasted way too much time on her and working on the marriage and thinking OMG the kids.

You have to come first even with kids. Even in a good relationship you come first. The fundamental differenace between me and my wife is this. She is selfish with NO consideration. I am becoming selfish with consideration for those I love.

The main point of this is this for guys still worrying about your WW ... stop. take care of you!

Until you do you will enable the same realtionship you had before.

I wish you strength my brothers.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
Just Crushed
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Member # 24852
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well...good discussion guys.

I understand both POVs from SCD and Razor on compartmentalizing. My take is that when a person is in an A they CHOOSE not to focus on their spouse or the betrayal they are committing. They KNOW what they are doing, but they distract themselves with the A and justify it w/ [insert lie here]. So they do compartmentalize (by not focusing on the betrayal), but they also KNOW it is very wrong.

IMHO, I donít give my WW a break because I think she compartmentalized the A. She needs to own it either way.

Guys, doesn't it concern you more that your WW ever had the capacity to cheat, than the worry that she might do so again?
The capacity to cheat means our wives looked at us with disrespect, in some cases, even disdain. That's the fundamental problem. That problem does not go away simply because they don't cheat in the future.
Yep, the capacity to cheat just blows my mind. I am struggling deeply with this. This was the first time my WW cheated and I caught it a week before it was "consummated" (as far as I know). However, my WW always had a capacity to lie, bend the truth or do things that I would consider immoral. Not big things, but just things that indicate she doesn't care too much about others.

[This message edited by Just Crushed at 11:20 AM, May 7th (Friday)]


BH
*details in Profile*

Posts: 843 | Registered: Jul 2009
shockedandstuned
♂ Member
Member # 27153
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great post guys, post have been really detailed and helpful. I am sorry we are all here but I support you guys. My WW is now playing games with the D, she is trying to get it all, she wants all my money and then wants more. Everything is about the money, she dont care about how me not having any effects our son.


There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.So I moved out and moved on and I am happier for it.

BS (me) 47
WW 40
1 son 11
D Day 23 Dec 09
Admitted to Affair 17 Jan 10
April 08 told her I want a Divorce
June 2010 Moved


Posts: 574 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Massachusetts
shockedandstuned
♂ Member
Member # 27153
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great post guys, post have been really detailed and helpful. I am sorry we are all here but I support you guys. My WW is now playing games with the D, she is trying to get it all, she wants all my money and then wants more. Everything is about the money, she dont care about how me not having any affects our son.


There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.So I moved out and moved on and I am happier for it.

BS (me) 47
WW 40
1 son 11
D Day 23 Dec 09
Admitted to Affair 17 Jan 10
April 08 told her I want a Divorce
June 2010 Moved


Posts: 574 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Massachusetts
Lotsa
♂ Member
Member # 28078
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, May 7th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guys, doesn't it concern you more that your WW ever had the capacity to cheat, than the worry that she might do so again?
The capacity to cheat means our wives looked at us with disrespect, in some cases, even disdain. That's the fundamental problem. That problem does not go away simply because they don't cheat in the future.

Yes, that bothers the absolute crap out of me.

For me, there are 2 issues:

1. WS's capacity to cheat and the fundamental flaw in her character that allowed her to make the CHOICE to be unfaithful in the first place let alone do it again and again.

and

2. How apparently easy it was that WP was able to do what she did while at the same time maintaining she wanted a lifetime commitment with me.

My take is that when a person is in an A they CHOOSE not to focus on their spouse or the betrayal they are committing. They KNOW what they are doing, but they distract themselves with the A and justify it w/ [insert lie here]. So they do compartmentalize (by not focusing on the betrayal), but they also KNOW it is very wrong.

This probably describes my way of thinking on the topic best. Of course my WS knew what she was doing was wrong. Regardless of how she tried to justify it in her head it was so wrong and I don't know that there's a way back.

But for me, I can't even start to deal with trying to reconcile the disrespectful choices my WS made until I am able to get my head around this foreign concept of how someone can engage in two diametrically opposed behaviours.

Maybe the compartmentalisation argument is just a cop out and I agree with OIAL that it can be easy to use such an argument to minimise the crime of infidelity. I am not convinced that my WS is not just doing the same thing.

I believe that trust and respect can be regained.

Yes, but for me it can never be to the same level that it was before the A. And I don't know that such a reduced level of trust or respect can ever be enough. But that's just me.

Thank you gents for contributing to the discussion, it has been particularly helpful and useful for me to get different perspectives on the issue.


Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2010
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, May 8th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After 6 months of MC, reading, talking, I understand why within my FWW she was able to have her A's. This knowledge does scare me, and her continuing ability to adddress these interal issues is a key factor in whether we R or not. Lately I have worried she will not be able to do the hard work, or do it fast enough.

Primarily FWW's A's showed her lack of respect for herself. Her actions showed no respect to me, but I do not see this as a concious choice. I was simply not a part of the equation, it was all about her. My role in all of the mix was no more than another factor to schedule around like the kids, work, his BS, etc.

I posted elsewhere that I am no longer the man FWW married or cheated on. I have changed for the better. I am on a new journey, and I am watching to see if FWW comes along. If she does I am interested in getting to know her, if not, then I have already started to walk away.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
quedagh
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Member # 24195
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, May 8th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ditto on atsn,

Xww does have many issues-- and the ultimate lack of respect wasn't for me; I was collateral to the damage she was doing to herself. She had lost all respect for herself and once the A started, she shattered herself internally. I do not own that, nor do I have to. I also lost all respect for her. She knows she has to earn that back.

Xww is having to do the work on herself, now, especially if she wants me back-- She has to address her personal issues and the damage she caused me and the kids. She has a long way to go.

The D put me in a safe position. I don't have to wait for her-- she has to catch up.


Divorced and safer, mostly.


Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2009 | From: Recovery Land
Buzz09
♂ Member
Member # 25971
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, May 8th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@finallyawake - Thanks for your kind words.

When can we trust another woman, especially given the continual lies and betrayal that signified the end of our respective marriages?

Good question. I think that was worse than D day. The continual mind fuck.


Me BH 40
WW 41

Posts: 648 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: buzz09
shockedandstuned
♂ Member
Member # 27153
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, May 9th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well WW went out last night came in around 230 am.WW got up said she was going to MIL/FIL for breakfast and left. I guess I am officially person no Grata at the in laws. My Mom passed many years ago and I really enjoyed spending Mothers Day with MIL it allowed me to still enjoy this day without too much sadness. Well so much for being able to enjoy this day.

I cannot believe just how many more things I have lost because of my selfish WW. Its not bad enough I lose time with my son, my house, and my financial stability now I am loosing once happy holidays or memories.

Just having a bad day and to make matters worse this week would of been 15 years. I mean technically we will make 15 years as we are not Divorced yet but this week will especially suck. I will need some additional strength this week just to survive.


There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.So I moved out and moved on and I am happier for it.

BS (me) 47
WW 40
1 son 11
D Day 23 Dec 09
Admitted to Affair 17 Jan 10
April 08 told her I want a Divorce
June 2010 Moved


Posts: 574 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Massachusetts
Finallyawake
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Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, May 9th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shocked,

Sending strength to you. I was told once that every holiday the first year you D is tough because it is the first time you do these days alone, not married.

You dealing with the holidays while in the process of getting D from an unrepentant, unfaithful spouse who you still live with is just plain brutal and ugly. I know because I did it too. Just try to stay busy today and make it to tomorrow. I am not going to blow smoke up your ass and tell you to have a great day. But just try to have the best day you can. Make it about you today.

I made it. You will too.


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
shockedandstuned
♂ Member
Member # 27153
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, May 9th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Finallyawake

Thanks i am trying, you are correct this really sucks.


There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.So I moved out and moved on and I am happier for it.

BS (me) 47
WW 40
1 son 11
D Day 23 Dec 09
Admitted to Affair 17 Jan 10
April 08 told her I want a Divorce
June 2010 Moved


Posts: 574 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Massachusetts
SourCherryDrops
♂ Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 3:40 AM, May 10th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was going to write something very similar to what JC did when he described the way that they Compartmentalise.

Its not as though they are two completely seperate personalities, rather they know that its wrong, and rather than think about how what theyre doing will affect us or the M it is pushed from their mind. This pushing things out of your mind gets easier and more effective the more practice you have at it.

I also agree with the comment from atsenaote, The biggest lack of respect in all this was for herself... she threw away all her own moral beliefs, she put her life on the line to do what she did, and at the end of the day she didnt even get what she was looking for.

Finally i was thinking about the question from Razor about the 'get naked point' ... While i agree that that was probably the very last point where they had an option to back out.... i really think for almost all WS's the decision was already made before that... That consumating the A is pretty much just a forgone conclusion.

Or at least thats the experience i have with my FWW... there was pretty much one point where she was at the fork in the road... she could choose to cheat or choose not to ... im here cause she choose the wrong path.... But once she was on that path she could have stopped and turned around but it was easier to just keep going....With my FWW its very clear where that decision point was... for others it may not be so clear.

However despite her being at that decision point she was allready feeling disassociated from the marriage, her feelings of self worth was at an all time low, She was already rewriting marital history, And so she repeated the behaviour that both her parents had shown her... while i call it a decision point in hind sight i can see that the chosen path was also virtually a foregone conclusion.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
Lotsa
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Member # 28078
Default  Posted: 4:25 AM, May 10th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

she was allready feeling disassociated from the marriage, her feelings of self worth was at an all time low, She was already rewriting marital history

While I don't wish to rehash what has already been said about the issue of compartmentalisation, your comment SCD resonates with me.

In my case, I feel that my WS was somewhat *destined* to have her A as a result of her own self-desctrutive behaviours and her rewriting of our relationship.

On reflection and discussion with WS, the major problems in our relationship were due to her withdrawal etc AFTER she had commenced the EA that led to the PA. She somehow twisted these post-commencement EA problems to justify her subsequent decisions and choices.

That's not to say there were not other issues in our relationship pre-A, but the issues that *tipped her over the edge* (so to speak), essentially allowed her to justify what by this stage was a self-fulfilling prophecy to have a full blown A.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as if this is that uncommon with WS's...

ETA - An example of an issue that *tipped her over the edge* was her continued staying out late without any phone call / inability to be contacted by phone and then when called on it by me became a huge issue of resentment and a feeling of self-entitlement on her part.

[This message edited by Lotsa at 4:30 AM, May 10th (Monday)]


Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2010
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, May 10th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Based on these descriptions of compartmentalizing (justify with lie, push morality out of your head), it seems all cheaters compartmentalize. Makes it no less personal, no less deliberate, no less disrespectful to the betrayed spouse.

Just because you have no self worth doesn't mean you necessarily throw away your morals and treat your spouse like shit. There are, sadly, many many people in the world with huge issues with self worth. But in general they don't go around cheating on their spouses. Some of the kindest, most sensitive people I know suffer from severe depression.

Compartmentalization simply means that the WS doesn't give a shit, IMHO.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 11:12 AM, May 10th (Monday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, May 10th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This to me is this.

Perfect was I .... no NOBODY is.

But as silly as it sounds I was watching some movie and the girl asked the guy did he do x y z? he was like yes. He was like "yes". The lady he was taling to "than she is fool in leaving you".

That is why personally I have issue work on them but know in my heart of hearts espeically in the beginning when i was working on the M and trying to make the M perfect i was a fool.

The issue never was about me. She was going to find ANYTHING to make the affair ok. Oh LC left off the touthpaste cap again.

I think often we can become victims of the cop out and own too much of the affair when we know we worked hard and did the rights things most the time.

We just had weak self esteem and the affair can expose that like nothing else.

So in the politest way I can say this is let go anything your WW believes about you.

You always believed in the M and you. Do not let anybody sway you from that truth.


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