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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 5
Finallyawake
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Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 5:09 AM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper,

I am not sure I understand. You and your WW are going to IC for your DD? Is DD there or is it just the two of you? If this is just the two of you I really don't understand what there is to talk about. Whose idea was this?

If both of you can put your child's well being first then you are good to go.

If this IC for your DD consists mainly of your WW rewriting history by saying things like, "You have to understand, Jasper is (fill in the blank here with some other bad attribute like crazy, jealous, irrational, fucked up, abusive)" then you need to stand up right now and put a stop to this. Does the IC know that your WW is in an affair. If they don't tell them right now and in no uncertain terms explain that you will not be demonized in your wife's attempts to justify her affair.

This does not mean that you are perfect. The only goal is to agree that your DD's interests come first and that you will do all you can to support that. Nuf said. Also keep in mind that at your house your DD lives under your rules. Sure, you can agree on major things like joint expectations for school, like a grace period before each of you introduce a new SO to her, whatever (not that your WW will follow it), but in the end it's your house, your rules. If your WW does not like it that you let your DD stay up 30 minutes later than she does, too bad.

When my XW and I were sort of trying to R the MC use to say that I would always get this "What the fuck" look on my face after the repeated made up stories my XW used to bring forth on how I had caused all these problems and her affairs. If you are feeling this in any way shape or form after ANY statements made by your WW then you need to open your mouth and put a stop to it.

"My WW is having an affair and has repeatedly rewritten our marital history and demonized me in her attempts to feel good about this affair and her decisions. We are getting D. I have my DD best interests at heart and will do all I can to support this. I am a good man and a good father and I won't be demonized for her personal selfish reasons."

If this IC was arranged by your WW and she does nothing but demonize you, then you need to talk to your L. Find out whether this can be used against you in court. A supposedly neutral third party observed the two of you where your WW paints this picture of a horribly abusive H who is putting her DD in danger and all he does is deny deny deny? This IC should not be a trial or judgement on you. Every M has issues. Nothing new there. Bringing them up when you are committed to D is a waste of time. The fact that you can have your moments of introspection and acknowledge in your heart that there were issues just says that you care about making yourself better and the feelings of others. Right now the only feelings you should care about are yours and your DD's. Any discussion focused on making your WW feel better should be stopped. Especially when she is rewriting history. Don't get angry, but do not allow her to do it.


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper.

First sorry you are in our club.

Second and this you really have to grab onto.

Unless you were beating her or the children NOTHING and I mean NOTHING compares to what she did.

She has a guilt button installed in you and guess what it works because you allow it.

You know what your core goals the entire time you were married. Made mistakes oh yeah you are human. but your heart was in your family. When she was cheating where was hers.

To not fall for the trap that your have ANY responsibility for the state of the marriage at all at this point. You are not their yet.

Right now you are being way to understanding. You are giving her the benefit of the doubt. You should be giving yourself the benefit of the doubt and treating yourself as the man you know you are and rejecting the messages she is sending you.

You are a good man and father who did not kill their partner through cheating.

Please elaborate on what goes on in the IC and we can help.

Stay strong and dont let anybody question your beliefs in you.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 12:44 PM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not sure I understand. You and your WW are going to IC for your DD? Is DD there or is it just the two of you? If this is just the two of you I really don't understand what there is to talk about. Whose idea was this?
I think I was probably not too clear in my explanation. We are just beginning IC for my daughter. Actually, I wasn't sure we would ever even have her meet with the child psych at all (she's only 4). We initially consulted her just to make sure we got the right advice on how to speak to our DD about our situation, and what problem behaviors to look for.

We ended up bringing her in to meet the psych, and we are probably going to have her start doing something called "play therapy." I'm not convinced this will be valuable, but that is a separate story.

Anyway, we've also been meeting with the child psych alone just so she can get some background to our situation, and understand details which it would be inappropriate to discuss in front of DD. I just think it is a fine line between counseling us on how we should behave with our daughter, and having actual MC, which I do not want.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
lostcause111
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Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A good marriage counselour can help you berak apart and depart on as decent terms as you can.

Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
awakening1
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Member # 27360
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Someone please tell me why I value myself so little that I am still holding out a flicker of hope for R?

Because the other path has it's hurdles too. Might be better, might not. It doesn't do any good to focus too much on one path in isolation.

A good marriage counselour can help you berak apart and depart on as decent terms as you can.

Agreed. We initially went to a MC for outlining how to handle telling the kids, and potentially for play therapy. Sort of divorce/co-parent counseling. Then it morphed in some ways into marriage counseling. Now, I'm not sure what it is. I do feel like she is revising some things, but at other times, she is actually getting under the story line into what has driven her emotional reactions and acting out. Whichever path we both take, we both could stand to learn about how to communicate more effectively with the opposite sex.

Thinking of her, and St. MF, has been a real energy drain for me. I'm trying hard to find distractions instead. Sometimes I have been effective, other times less so.

If you are feeling this in any way shape or form after ANY statements made by your WW then you need to open your mouth and put a stop to it.

Absolutely true if you are convinced you are on the path to D. If you think R is possible, allowing her some room to explore, with a hard stop when she goes to far, can aid potential understanding. It's your call, and dependent upon where your mood is at the time.

Unless you were beating her or the children NOTHING and I mean NOTHING compares to what she did.

+1

Also, Jasper, a few times on this thread you have called yourself a pussy, or a girl. YMMV, but I doubt that kind of self-talk is helpful. It ain't for me. It appears to me that you are a sincere man trying to square your reality with something that does not mesh with your ideals or values. That is damn tough for anyone, and you didn't choose to get here either. Give yourself some leeway to do whatever you think you need to do to figure out your best choice, as a man, dad, spouse, and whatever other roles you have and value.



Me: BH, 43
Her: WW, 41
Kids: 2 (9 and 6)
D-Day: 11/21/09. WW tried to bust up another marriage, but got dumped. OM/St. MF apparently wasn't so saintly after all.
Drafted S papers in 1/10. Filed in 1/12. Court date set for 1/13.

Posts: 79 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Northern VA
jasper
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Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks guys.

Agreed. We initially went to a MC for outlining how to handle telling the kids, and potentially for play therapy. Sort of divorce/co-parent counseling. Then it morphed in some ways into marriage counseling. Now, I'm not sure what it is. I do feel like she is revising some things, but at other times, she is actually getting under the story line into what has driven her emotional reactions and acting out. Whichever path we both take, we both could stand to learn about how to communicate more effectively with the opposite sex.
This is what's happening with us too. I guess I just don't really want these sessions to morph into anything beyond what they were supposed to be. I'm very wary of going down that path. I'm still too angry with WW to be frank and non-defensive in her presence about the issues I have. To me, that is work I need to do on my own with my own therapist. Any discoveries I make with her in the room will be tainted by what she has done to me. Does that make sense?

Also, Jasper, a few times on this thread you have called yourself a pussy, or a girl. YMMV, but I doubt that kind of self-talk is helpful.
Probably isn't, you're right. Honestly, it's less about feeling shitty post dday, and more just the way I've always spoken. Sometimes I feel like a pussy and call myself out on it, especially when I regret the way I've handled a situation. It definitely doesn't reflect any deeper self-loathing or anything. When I know what the right thing to do is, but I do the wrong thing, I tend to be hard on myself. But it's situational. Nothing deep seeded.

BTW, what is YMMV?

Also, can't fin the post where I read this acronym, but what is FOO?


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
awakening1
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Member # 27360
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is what's happening with us too. I guess I just don't really want these sessions to morph into anything beyond what they were supposed to be. I'm very wary of going down that path. I'm still too angry with WW to be frank and non-defensive in her presence about the issues I have. To me, that is work I need to do on my own with my own therapist. Any discoveries I make with her in the room will be tainted by what she has done to me. Does that make sense?

Sure. Sounds like your anger towards her is still too strong to try to restrain enough to explore, or you want to sort things out with your IC to know where you really stand. Nothing wrong with that either; you are justified, and you gotta be honest with where your feelings are.

YMMV = your mileage may vary
FOO = family of origin (issues)

Honestly, it's less about feeling shitty post dday, and more just the way I've always spoken. Sometimes I feel like a pussy and call myself out on it, especially when I regret the way I've handled a situation. It definitely doesn't reflect any deeper self-loathing or anything. When I know what the right thing to do is, but I do the wrong thing, I tend to be hard on myself. But it's situational. Nothing deep seeded.

That's fine too. I was just wary that the tough self-talk can get in the way of figuring yourself out, both heart and mind. For example, I think WW had her mother's bitching and demanding ways scripted into her head so much that she places unrealistic expectations on herself and others, and then gets discouraged when she or they naturally fails to meet them. Her mother's voice became the voice inside her head, and fucked her up moreso. The responsible world becomes impossible, so she escapes to the irresponsible fantasyland of the A.


Me: BH, 43
Her: WW, 41
Kids: 2 (9 and 6)
D-Day: 11/21/09. WW tried to bust up another marriage, but got dumped. OM/St. MF apparently wasn't so saintly after all.
Drafted S papers in 1/10. Filed in 1/12. Court date set for 1/13.

Posts: 79 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Northern VA
jasper
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Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 3:08 PM, May 13th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow. You just described something similar to issues I believe my WW (and, honestly, myself) have. Unreasonable expectations for ourselves and for loved ones.

BTW, I notice you are in Northern VA. I grew up in Northern VA, a million years ago.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
SourCherryDrops
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Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 4:06 AM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper,

Thats why i allways try to advise new BS's to take the time to decide what you really want. Because once youve made that decision then you can use it to guide you in your further actions.

From what you've written you seem to have decided to D and that your happy with that decision ... until you start interacting with your wife. And then your doubts set in...

But realistically what has actually changed? Is she no longer seeing OM... is she asking for R? Has she shown a stong commitment to the M?

Dont get me wrong, i dont believe that we shouldnt change our minds, but i do think it helps when making a decision to also think about the conditions for re-assessing that decision.

So for instance you could say.

I have decided to persue D, I will only reconsider this decision if she stops seeing the OM and commits herself to the M...

IMHO Working something like this out for yourself in advance can help you avoid the emotional wavering that we all face...

( I face them in my choice to R, some days i get triggered or loose the plot for an hour or so and think about throwing in the towel... but i can allways go back to my original decision and the preconditions required for change )

As for the specific situation, I could imagine that one meeting with both parents together could be benificial... but not more... if the counsellor still needs more background than she could do it seperately.

Also in other situations there really is no need to get into discussing what went wrong in your marital history, or re-hasing old issues, or even allocating blame.... that shoe has already been thrown. You have decide to D, be polite, be civil, keep the discussion on relevant things.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
jsngold
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Member # 27699
Default  Posted: 6:49 AM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just want to say that I appreciate this community of men. Although our collective situations suck, it helps to hear from other men in similar situations.

This is like the worst club ever. But there is strength in community.

Good luck, guys!

You are all stronger than you know.


BH: 37 (me)
WW: 37 (her) SAB, EA (but not PA, or so she says)
Married: 12.5 years
Kids: 12, 9, and 7
D-Day: 7 Feb 2010
Divorced: 22 July 2012

Posts: 101 | Registered: Feb 2010
awakening1
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Member # 27360
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow. You just described something similar to issues I believe my WW (and, honestly, myself) have. Unreasonable expectations for ourselves and for loved ones.

My description borrows from Dr. Bruce Fisher's analysis. In his "Rebuilding" text, the follow-up "Loving Choices" text, and in several divorce seminars, he identified 4 inner voices he contends we all have - 1) the critic (inner and outer), 2) the inner children, the 3)adaptive-survivor, and the 4) wise nurturer. He contends that many of our feelings and disagreements within relationships can be traced to these voices in our head. I haven't read about this yet in detail, but I look forward to doing so.

Another semi-source is Buddhist philosophy, but I don't really think it is tied to religion. Buddhists have a term called "miatri," finding compassion for yourself. Once you develop maitri, you want to try to practice radiating that out from yourself towards others. Without being kind to yourself (but not in a cheap and irresponsible way), it is difficult to be kind to others.


Me: BH, 43
Her: WW, 41
Kids: 2 (9 and 6)
D-Day: 11/21/09. WW tried to bust up another marriage, but got dumped. OM/St. MF apparently wasn't so saintly after all.
Drafted S papers in 1/10. Filed in 1/12. Court date set for 1/13.

Posts: 79 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Northern VA
jasper
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Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 7:58 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

From what you've written you seem to have decided to D and that your happy with that decision ... until you start interacting with your wife. And then your doubts set in...
I wouldn't say that. I'm set on D. My WW and I do make an effort to get along and be civil when we are together, and can slip into old familiar ways of interacting if I'm not careful to avoid doing so.

There may have been pockets of insanity when I've considered that maybe I could try to R, but that isn't a realistic possibility. The fact is, the betrayal was too huge, and I will never be able to trust her again.

That said, yeah, you are all correct. She's still got way too much access to my life.

I probably do need to set some more distinct boundaries.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 8:46 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know, I can't find the post, but I remember that last week someone posted about how many people on SI have multiple ddays. But I've noticed a similar trend. Many of the BSs on SI seem to also have multiple marriages and relationships with spouses who have had multiple marriages.

To me, this says that, not only is it common for WSs to repeat mistakes, even after R, it is also common for BSs to find new spouses who have a tendency to engage in A. Do you guys notice this as well? Am I being paranoid?

I find it a little disturbing. I've really been trying to look forward and think about the fact that I will find a new wife (or even just GF) and start a better, healthier relationship. And I know IC will play a big role in helping me make sure I don't make the same mistakes I made in my current (past) relationship.

What scares me about the trend I see, is that it makes me worry and wonder if there is something that attracts BS types to people who have high potential for being WS types.

Does this happen?

Obviously, if it does, it's something I will work in IC to address, and make sure I don't make the same mistake.

However, it also really depresses me, and makes me wonder if I am somehow a person who attracts this type of person. I mean, this isn't a pattern for me, but it's a pattern I've noticed on the board. Is there something about me that makes me a BS type? That possibility scares me and makes me feel weak. Ugh.

Am I overthinking?

[This message edited by jasper at 8:48 PM, May 14th (Friday)]


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
awakening1
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Member # 27360
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't think you are overthinking at all. It's one of the big things my IC has lined up for me to do when I decide I have had enough. I dare say he almost seemed impatient with me last week, and was ready to jump into how to make a better choice next time. It's a big part of the Rebuilding book too.


Me: BH, 43
Her: WW, 41
Kids: 2 (9 and 6)
D-Day: 11/21/09. WW tried to bust up another marriage, but got dumped. OM/St. MF apparently wasn't so saintly after all.
Drafted S papers in 1/10. Filed in 1/12. Court date set for 1/13.

Posts: 79 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Northern VA
oftenwrong
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Member # 27822
Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was betrayed horribly before this long term relationship. It nearly destroyed me.

Coming out of that devastation, I became a little wiser. I learned what warning signs to look for and what to do if this situation ever came up again.

Eventually I learned to trust again. To slowly take down the barriers with my X. She cheated on me as well. I weathered this situation so much better because I have been thru it before and I knew exactly what needed to happen.

You will love again. Even love deeper than you did your previous relationship. Always be mindful that no matter how wonderful they make us feel, it can go the opposite way as strongly.

You are not being paranoid. Infidelity unfortunately is becoming more and more common. With techniques to catch the cheaters in the act becoming more available, more people are finding out about cheating.

I know my next relationship I won't bring my mistrust or paranoia out in the open. But I will verify any suspicion I may have.


ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances


Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You guys are right. And I guess I don't need to read SI to know I am going to have trust issues forever now that this has happened.

I guess this just confirms the fact that I need solid therapy.

The fact that we've been together for nearly 15 years, with no indication that WW had this in her, makes me very nervous about my ability to have a healthy realtionship when this is all finally over. This betrayal was a shock after so many years. I never dreamed WW would do this. I'm going to be hypersensitive. I'm afraid it will turn into insecurity.

I have a lot of work to do.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:30 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And I guess I don't need to read SI to know I am going to have trust issues forever now that this has happened.

Jasper, I'm 3.5 years out, and I want you to know that at least for me, this is not true.

I don't have trust issues anymore, and I'm still married to my wife.

I thought exactly like you are right now for a long time. SI is probably still full of my posts where I stated I'd think like that till the day I died.

I don't. I healed.

Now, is it the same sort of trust? No. Because I'm aware of the possibility that infidelity could happen in a way I wasn't before. But I'm not troubled by the possibility. I don't dig into my wife's e-mail. If she's an hour late from work, it doesn't even cross my mind to wonder what she's doing. I automatically assume that she's just delayed t work, even without a call. I don't worry about what she's doing at home all day while I'm at work. I don't check her phone. I don't verify anymore. I honestly and sincerely believe that she's doing the honorable and right thing when I'm not looking over her shoulder.

It took a long time, and it took a ton of work on her part, a ton of calling, e-mailing, proving that she was doing what she said she was doing, not continuing to fuck up. In other words, she had to prove to me that she was the sort of person who could be trusted.

She did that with time, consistency and effort, without expectation, and long after I told her I didn't need her to do those sorts of things for me anymore. She did it on her own initiative (not at first, believe me. We had more than our share of her not "getting it" for the first year plus, including broken NC with the xOM at 18 months out.)

I just want you to know that there's hope, whether it's with a remorseful wife or a new partner. You won't be feeling this way forever.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 10:15 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL, yours is an excellent story. I don't think it will be mine.

If she were to come back now, I would always suspect that it was because the OM ended things.

My M is definitely over. My WW chose the OM, so too much damage has been done. I'm not willing to make the emotional investment.

Too much damage has been done.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, May 14th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay, then you're not going to keep the marriage. I hear you.

Then trust me that you'll heal if though the marriage won't. It'll take time, but when you meet someone new, they'll do the same sorts of trust-building that happens in most new relationships, and that'll help you, too, even though the new woman isn't the one who betrayed you.

We're men. We're resilient.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
oftenwrong
♂ Member
Member # 27822
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, May 15th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We're men. We're resilient.

Yes! We are much stronger than we think.


ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances


Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
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