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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 5
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, June 7th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shocked, that story gives me chills. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. It sounds like you are an awesome dad, and have a great relationship with your son.

Is your WW aware that he feels this way? Is it something the two of you could discuss? (FWIW, I know the answer is likely "no" -- I doubt my WW and I would be able to discuss rationally).

Are there things she could be doing differently? I'm sure she would want her son to be happy when he's with her.

The whole shared custody thing is so hard. I feel so guilty about it. I know all DD wants is for her parents to be in the same place at the same time.

The thing is, I'm seeing a silver lining in the whole thing. I'm noticing that my relationship with DD is closer, and I think we both enjoy the time we spend together more, now that it is just our time, and WW isn't there. I do not plan to discuss with WW, but I would imagine she is experiencing the same thing.

As much as I know we enjoy our time together more, I also know I can't discuss or explain that to my 4-year old. All she knows is, she wants her parents to be in the same place at the same time, and hates that she is always missing whichever one isn't there.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
shockedandstuned
♂ Member
Member # 27153
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, June 9th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper,

WW will in no way give me full custody. She knows my sons wishes and thinks I am bribing him or something. Also she knows I want him so just that reason alone she will not let me have him, plus she will not get her child support. She believes if I really wanted him full time I should of stayed married and let her do what she wanted to do.
I agree my son and I have an even stronger relationship, things I would of yelled at him for doing before I no longer do and Ive noticed he is even more relaxed when he makes a mistake. Like tonight he dropped a full dozen eggs on the floor and said Im sorry 10x I just laughed and said dont worry the grocery store has several dozen more and if they run out the chickens will lay more eggs. Without the WW around I am more relaxed and more like my old humorous self.


There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.So I moved out and moved on and I am happier for it.

BS (me) 47
WW 40
1 son 11
D Day 23 Dec 09
Admitted to Affair 17 Jan 10
April 08 told her I want a Divorce
June 2010 Moved


Posts: 574 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Massachusetts
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, June 9th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shocked, I hear you on the relationship with your kid. I am so much calmer with my DD, and our interactions are so much less stressful.

That said, you know your son needs his mom, no matter how much of a psycho she is. Is there a way you can facilitate a better relationship between the two of them? Hurts, I know. And I know it isn't your responsibility to fix WW's fuck-ups, but it might be in your son's best interests.

And it will alleviate the guilt you feel for sending BS back to WW, and the hatred you feel for her. After all, you have a kid together (amazing gift for both of you), so you're attached (tenuously at least) for life.

And feel good about the way your son feels about you. You don't want him to hate his mom, but I think you should feel awesome about the fact that you were the one who had to leave, and he didn't hold it against you.

You've been dealt a shit hand of cars, and you are doing a great job with it. I've admired your dedication to your son since I joined this forum.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
shockedandstuned
♂ Member
Member # 27153
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, June 10th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the support Jasper, the WW thinks buying him stuff is how to get through. I have tried to get her to understand just playing connect 4 is better than buying stuff but she just does not get it. I am happy my son wants to stay with me full time, I am very happy. We had a long talk and I told him if he felt this way in October then I would talk to his mother about him staying full time with me. I think as long as she still gets her child support its all she cares about (money).


There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.So I moved out and moved on and I am happier for it.

BS (me) 47
WW 40
1 son 11
D Day 23 Dec 09
Admitted to Affair 17 Jan 10
April 08 told her I want a Divorce
June 2010 Moved


Posts: 574 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Massachusetts
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, June 10th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do any of your WW's still tell you shit like "I don't know what I would do w/o you"

WW told me this the other nite(her friend's H drowned), I scoffed at her words, & she got mad.

If her A taught me anything, it taught me I was very easily replaced, dead or alive.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
oftenwrong
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Member # 27822
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, June 10th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A rule of thumb is to ignore all words and only listen to actions. If her actions do not sync up with her words, they are meaningless babble to satisfy her own self interest.

We all know what sacrifice and remorse look like. If we aren't seeing it, it isn't real.


ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances


Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
Finallyawake
♂ Member
Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, June 10th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had a conversation about this with my IC today. I commented to her that I feel like every word that comes out of my XW's mouth is all about her. Even her friendliness and concern. She doesn't really care. She does it so she can tell herself she really is a good person.

It isn't real


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 10:19 PM, June 10th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Same here. All she does is try to make nice and be "best friends." I get cute texts during the day about random stuff, and calls just because "I had to tell someone, and you were the first one I thought of."

WTF, am I one of her girlfriends?

I'm amazed at her ability to manipulate, and at my ability to be manipulated.

The more I refuse to respond to it, the more I feel like my own man. I just hate thinking she is the clever one, and I can only win by ignoring her. I'm wilier than that!


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:46 PM, June 10th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ignoring her is the most powerful weapon in your arsenal, jasper.

Look, WW's are attention whores. They crave it. When they don't get it, they get frustrated and start to implode.

Even negative engagement counts as attention in her mind. When you ignore her, you send the very powerful message that she doesn't matter to you...that you don't even think about her.

And to someone desperate for attention, that's the absolute worst feeling in the entire world, because I'm not interested in what you have to say equates to You don't matter.

You can't think like a normal person if you're going to win this war. You have to think like a whiny little sucking whole of need.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
SourCherryDrops
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Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 2:07 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Id back up WAL on that.

Some people thrive on attention. positive is prefered, but theyll take negative as well as long as they are the center of attention.

Its sometimes hard to understand, but i find it easiest if i relate it back to children. What children want more than anything else in this world is the attention of their parents, (or other caregivers).

Children learn very early that there are two ways to get the attention focused on them... the first being to be really good. the other...to act up. Sure when they are naughty they get negative attention, BUT it is still attention, and thats what really counts.

How as a parent do we combat this? by retaining the punishment or discouragement for being naughty, and limiting the attention and or time spent with the naughty child... (weve all seen the super nanny, and sticking the kid on the naughty step, without any discussion)

Same thing applies to an attention whore. Ensure that they still have to face the consequences for their behaviour, but limit all other interaction.

.....

Jasper, perhapes it will help to think of her as a child (more likely a teenager) inside a grown womens body.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
Alex1
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Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 3:33 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do any of your WW's still tell you shit like "I don't know what
I would do w/o you"

Yes, FWW's main reason for wanting to R is that "I can't live without you". Don't know if I should laugh, cry, or move on...

I think she is sincere and out of the fog. I find myself drifting into the plain of lethal flatness.


Posts: 197 | Registered: Nov 2009
Lotsa
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Member # 28078
Default  Posted: 4:03 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Alex1,

I received this text from my WS yesterday:

"I have realised today that I don't know how to live my life without you".

I think she is sincere and out of the fog. I find myself drifting into the plain of lethal flatness.

Me too...


Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2010
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You have to think like a whiny little sucking whole of need.

Brilliant! My new mantra.

Jasper, perhapes it will help to think of her as a child (more likely a teenager) inside a grown womens body.

Very accurate description of WW. Down to the gossip magazines and shopping obsession.

Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
Finallyawake
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Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper, perhapes it will help to think of her as a child (more likely a teenager) inside a grown womens body.

This is so accurate. The things my XW said and did while deep in her A sounded just like a high school girl with a crush. Almost juvenile.

There was an article in my local paper a ways back by a woman named Meghan Daum. The article dealt with Rielle Hunter (John Edwards AP) and her beliefs on her relationship with Edwards. It was called "Rielle's Manifest Destiny".

Daum talks about the absolute fog this gal is in but a couple of lines stuck out for me.

Of course, denial is to adultery as breath is to life itself. One simply cannot exist without the other, which is why it's not surprising that Hunter's interpretation of her relationship with Edwards has may of the same "he loves me but he's afraid to love me" undertones common to teenage girls talking about boys who don't know they exist

Later on

It has to do with the way Hunter masks her recklessness and narcissism as truth-seeking, the way she hides behind a dialect of New Age self empowerment and, instead of apologizing for her actions, actually evangelizes their preordination.

This really resonated with me and aligned perfectly with the self focused communication that it appears we all get from our WW's or XW's especially if they are still in the fog. Add in all the other wonderful traits that seem to go along with this. The spending/shopping issues, the manipulative behaviors, on and on and on.

Here is the link to the entire column if you are interested.

http://www.meghandaum.com/2010-la-times-column-current-year/262-rielles-manifest-destiny


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For those of you approaching the Plain of Lethal Flatness...

It's actually a good thing, at least from your personal standpoint.

You've been feeling and feeling and inundated with feeling for months now. The PLF is your mind/body backing you off to process and heal without the constant emotional barrage.

It's okay to not feel for awhile. It's okay to introspect and stop having to be in crisis mode. Some of your best decisions for your future will be made in the next few weeks/months while you've got the clarity of not giving a shit about the outcome.

On the other hand, your wives should probably be terrified. D-day is a big make-or-break milestone for lots of BS's, where choices to R or D are made at least tentatively. The PLF is the same sort of opportunity, only dragged out and slowed down. I've seen lots of BS's who were planning to R give it up for D on the PLF, because one of the main doubts/realizations that comes with the keys to Chateau BS in the PLF is What the fuck am I fighting for? Why am I exerting so much energy over someone I don't actually care that much about anymore?

Now is the time for them to step up their games...except you won't really give a shit if they do. So, sucks to be them.

Bottom line here: You're recharging. The PLF won't last forever. More than likely, you'll move off the PLF and onto the Rage Plateau at some point. Angry is just a different way of feeling, so that's okay, too.

Just hold on and enjoy the rest.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

yep, spoiled teen girl.

makes sense now.

I think she is sincere and out of the fog. I find myself drifting into the plain of lethal flatness.
that's

exactly the dynamic we have-she tries to care so much now, but I have checked out-just the opposite of how it was during her As.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
toby
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Member # 10337
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On the other hand, your wives should probably be terrified. D-day is a big make-or-break milestone for lots of BS's, where choices to R or D are made at least tentatively.

Mine was scared shitless during my PLF. Funny, how things work out...when you stop giving a fuck.

ETA: WAL...I finished reading your novel...Damn good reading!!!


Posts: 1493 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Texas
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, toby! I'm glad you liked it.

Writing it was a big turning point for me. It helped me crystallize so many of the thoughts that had been swirling around in my head.

I think of it now as the last nail in the A coffin. When it was done, I was finally able to bury the A in the past/feel like I had come to terms with it and what it "meant" (to me, I mean -- if anything in the world is ultimately absolutely meaningless, it's infidelity.)


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
lostcause111
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Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL glad you peak in from time to time.

Key point for many fellas here is negative and positive reaction say one thing you care.

The Plain can be a good thing and to be honest I think their are too different plains. One where you suck the pain up keep it inside or one where you reclaim your life and let go of everything at least for a while.

let go and being you again and the happy spunky person you were before marriage can go a long way in saving it or getting the strength to get out.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
awakening1
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Member # 27360
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, June 11th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good article on Hunter:

to say what goes unsaid about the whole "visualize and you will manifest" approach to life: It works, but only if your amazing energy includes amazing powers of denial

Denial is one interpretation. Fantasy is another. Fog is another.

One thing we touched on in my last JC meeting was the willingness to disregard societal norms. I don't know how many times I have heard my WW say "I don't care what anyone else does," or "I don't care what anyone else thinks." She has refused to read "Not Just Friends," or any other book on affairs, because "No one else is going to tell me what this affair means to me."

This sort of behavior was something that, at a younger age, and in other contexts, I admired in a sort of contrarian/anticonventional way. I have a bit of it myself, admittedly.

However, in this context, it comes across as childish and ignorant. And continually, willfully so. It does not surprise me that it was fueled by her discussions with a college dropout (albiet a physics major), while I have law and business graduate degrees.

My WW's powers of denial were fueled by her mother's affair with her now step-father-in-law. She needed to use them as a coping mechanism to help her individually. She is now using them as a coping mechanism to destroy our marriage. Many of us need to learn different coping mechanisms to build healthy marriages - right now, she is unwilling to hear how to do so. And I can learn for myself, but I can't make her take advantage.

I commented to her that I feel like every word that comes out of my XW's mouth is all about her. Even her friendliness and concern. She doesn't really care. She does it so she can tell herself she really is a good person.

It fits the selfishness of engaging in the A, as well as the low self-esteem that results and the transparent way to band-aid it over.

I'm amazed at her ability to manipulate, and at my ability to be manipulated.

It's become a habitual pattern for most of us. It's a foolish, loser's game, but one we know all too well.

The more I refuse to respond to it, the more I feel like my own man. I just hate thinking she is the clever one, and I can only win by ignoring her. I'm wilier than that!

If you ignore her, how is she being clever? You are opting out of her loser's game.

I've seen lots of BS's who were planning to R give it up for D on the PLF, because one of the main doubts/realizations that comes with the keys to Chateau BS in the PLF is What the fuck am I fighting for? Why am I exerting so much energy over someone I don't actually care that much about anymore?

Yep, that just about sums my feelings up. At least, it sums up where I want to be right now, and where I feel like I am slightly more often than not.

You have to think like a whiny little sucking whole of need.

Like the metaphor. I've typed/thought "bottomless pit of need," and "black hole of need" a few times myself.

Down to the gossip magazines and shopping obsession.

Mine too. Also, jewelry catalogs and the jewelry shopping channel.

Of course, she probably sees my sports viewing focus as teenage boy escapism too. What she doesn't see is how I can use it to bond with my son, and show him different things that apply to coaching and the other life lesson's I learned as a boy from my dad and my coaches. Not seeing that in People or with the sparklies.

ETA: Hang in there and stay strong, shocked. We hear ya.

[This message edited by awakening1 at 2:20 PM, June 11th (Friday)]


Me: BH, 43
Her: WW, 41
Kids: 2 (9 and 6)
D-Day: 11/21/09. WW tried to bust up another marriage, but got dumped. OM/St. MF apparently wasn't so saintly after all.
Drafted S papers in 1/10. Filed in 1/12. Court date set for 1/13.

Posts: 79 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Northern VA
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