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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 5
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 9:17 AM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know about you guys but let me explain the very weird dynamic in my fuck I dont know what to call it.

yeah my wife checked out shit I dont think she was ever in after the LTA that started so early in our M.

She may be checked out but when I step out and do my thing IE investing in my hobbies, friends, doing good things for myself, at times doing things alone etc. she goes balsitic trying to rope me back in.

So this is the fucked up dynamic I deal with. She will NOT do the things for me to fall in love with her again or show true care but at the sametime will angrily try to keep me co-dependant and in the M.

I know logic need not apply in any of this shit but man it makes no sense.

For me it is causing me to really honestly not care. I am moving past love and hate to indifference.

That is the true opposite of love and right now it sucks.

I have tried MC begged for IC tried having real conversations only to get the deer in the headlights look and little more.

If not for my kids and my new found ability to not care at all I would be gone.

I would not be suprised that many of you are in the same boat.

I knwo she is STUPID but one of the most disturbing books I ever read and it is for bad wives is "The proper care and feeding of husbands" by the infamous Dr Laura.

I do not like her at all but that one book is an insight into our WW mind. Without IC and a revaltion their is no hope for many of us if not all.

I am jealous of Fallen, Wincing sparkle and the ones that do get it here.

They are a rare breed and taught me that i accepted to little in R.

I see this NEVER changing and either need to D or accept that I am living in a sham of a M.

But now that I dont care at all about the M it has freed me emmotionally and I feel much better.

I miss and hunger for love from a woman who cares but those little eyes looking at me paralyze me dead in my tracks.

I wish you all luck and have no answers.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have read that statistically fewer M survive when it is the woman that cheats. Most cite the reasons given here. That WW emotionally check out of the M before the A starts. Also that the A are more often laced with stronger emotions from the womans side.

But I also think there is a cultural / courtship issue.

When courting women *run just fast enuf so that we can catch them*. We have all heard this. But after WW A. The WW is in a position where she must win us back. And running away *just fast enuf* just dont cut it. We are laying on the floor shrieking in pain and they jog out of the room coyly whispering *catch me!* This is not a winning dynamic for winning a BH back.

OTOH men are hunters. We pursue. And this works better for a WH in winning back a BW.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Her anwsers to why she had the A are because ol zombieman gave up on the marriage, because she thought I would never know. It's everybodies fault but her own, it's my fault, it's OMs fault, Its OMs W fault.

they are all the same-I got the same shit, damn near word for word.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I got that same shit to. Same as you. Same as 64. Probably the same as every one here.

All our fault. We work to much. (of course had we not worked as hard as we did they would have said the reason was we were not ambitious enuf) We were never *there* for them.

All OM fault. He pursued them. She was this innocent shrinking violet that that was taken advantage of by this horrible man. (this fuels the *all men are horrible* shit WW often spew)

All they family fault. They have FOO *issues* (who doesnt?) They were *abused* (some times this is fiction some times this is over stated but some times this is real - but what about those that were really abused but never cheat?)

Its all ducking responsibility. They want to be innocent and just a victim of circumstance or make some one or some thing else responsible.

Complete pig shit.

They wanted to.
They thought they could get away with it.
So they did.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Its total BS.

We coped when they got in the affair. How the fuck was I going to keep attaching to you while you gave me no love or care and constantly had OM dick in your mouth?

It is the biggest line of BS ever.

Also that dynamic is HUGE. It reverses the typical dynamic and my wife is fucking nuts if she thinks I will continue to pursue her.

Check the WW who get it on SI. They broach issues and pursue and recreat the bond. That is what resolves the affair. After that period of a few years the normal dynamic can return. The BH knows he is loved again and has value.

What messages do the actions of the wives we discuss say to us? No wonder our M are screwed with little chance of return.

The affair is not resolved thus regular relationship dynamics need not apply.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
mandownandthenup
♂ New Member
Member # 29279
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here is my issue I am into to R for 3 weeks.

The good. My FWW is more affectionate, caring and overall nice to me. She lets it go pretty easily if I start to lose it and she tries to help. She took entire blame upon herself for A. She wants to push forward and rebuild the marriage.

The bad. She doesnt like me asking questions about the A.

I have about 30 questions to ask. I ask about one or two a week. She answers them. But at this rate it will 7 months later to get all questions answered. i might be insane by then.

My reluctance is because we have several good days together and then I feel comfortable asking them. I feel if we have 6 good days in a week and one bad we are still making progress.

Should I just ask everything at once that is left to stop my personal torture?


Me BH 38
Her WW 36
7 & 5 Yr Old Children
DDay 7/02/2010
Together 20 yrs
Married 9 yrs
Reconcile going well

Posts: 11 | Registered: Aug 2010
Lonerider
♂ Member
Member # 9205
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mandown,

What does your WW think? Doe she want to spread it out like that?

What is you gave her written questions, and got her to promise to answer them in a few weeks?


BS me 43 years old
WS her 45 years old
married 14 years, together 20
2 kids
D-day 7/15/05

Posts: 4225 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: western NY
mandownandthenup
♂ New Member
Member # 29279
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lonerider

I dont think she likes answering them at all. i never asked her. Just thought it was my right.

But I do like the written question idea.

But as usual I'm in a quandry. My FWW sending me dirty text messages of what to anticpate later tonight. So I am sure I will push it off for another day. But that in a nutshell is why i am in this perpetual cycle.


Me BH 38
Her WW 36
7 & 5 Yr Old Children
DDay 7/02/2010
Together 20 yrs
Married 9 yrs
Reconcile going well

Posts: 11 | Registered: Aug 2010
resigned
♂ Member
Member # 12903
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mandown-that sounds like torture.
If she'll agree to talk, I say ask all the questions you have.

But you'll continue to have more questions for awhile. Whatever answers you get will lead to more questions.

And you'll ask the same questions again and again. Your mind needs to process this alternate reality that has been heaped upon you.

She can see the whole picture, you can't. You need to see it and she should help you to see it.

Good luck with that though. I haven't had much luck getting all my questions answered.


Posts: 453 | Registered: Dec 2006
CluelessGuy
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Member # 28491
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Why? Cuase most of our WW's have completely checked out emotionally from the M even before they start their A's...

Not saying it fits every situation, or that no BH makes it back to greener pastures with his WW. but they are pretty few and far between.

I thought i was bucking the trend for a long while, until i found out that FWW as i was calling her then hadnt really re-commited to the M at all.

I think she was frozen in the spotlight for the first few months, and tried to maintain the status quo, which meant telling me that she wanted to R, making a half hearted attempt at R whilst wallowing in her own self pity, only eventually to eventually realise that she was not willing to do the things that i was asking, i was needing in R... you know hard stuff like appologising, showing empathy, and being honest.

This. Sucks, don't it?


BH - early 40s
XWW - early 40s
Two kids

D-Day - Easter 2010
D-Day 2 - July 18, 2010

Divorced - Nov. 26, 2012


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2010
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mandown,

Have you tried MC? You seem to be walking on eggshells. You have valid needs and wants. Why are you scared to voice them to her?


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35371 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
mandownandthenup
♂ New Member
Member # 29279
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Clueless guy

i think that was meant for me.

my FWW has apologized plenty, I get empathy, and I get honesty. My kids tell me everything.

My FWW admits to checking out emotional for months even though I did not see it. Now she has realized her mistake and told me that still had feelings for me. She came to me for R. I was not living with her and was moving on.


Me BH 38
Her WW 36
7 & 5 Yr Old Children
DDay 7/02/2010
Together 20 yrs
Married 9 yrs
Reconcile going well

Posts: 11 | Registered: Aug 2010
mandownandthenup
♂ New Member
Member # 29279
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wifehad5.

I am afraid to ask them because what we are working on seems better than it has been in years. I dont like how we got there but I feel I might cause problems in a R that looks like it is going well to me.

Mutually agree no MC for now.


Me BH 38
Her WW 36
7 & 5 Yr Old Children
DDay 7/02/2010
Together 20 yrs
Married 9 yrs
Reconcile going well

Posts: 11 | Registered: Aug 2010
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 1:57 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just be very sure to watch out for resentment on your part. I can tell you from our experience that things I did like you are doing has coused some resentment on my part that has caused unnecessary rework.

Another thing to remember, is that one of the reasons you're in the spot you're in was because instead of voicing her needs, your wife kept them in, then shared them with someone else. Be very careful here.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35371 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what wifehad5 said

My FWW sending me dirty text messages of what to anticpate later tonight.

It got to the point in my M prior to dday that if W was initiating sex I was wondering what she had done or what was coming and had trouble enjoying the ride. If I was angry or she wanted something unreasonable she would soothe me sex. She would then disassociate from the act, get it done, we would never have resolved the issue, and she would have one more example in her life of using sex to manipulate men rather than engaging in communication.

We now (currently) go through periods where neither feels very sexual towards the other, but we are hashing through our crap. With the sometimes painful, but intimate communication, the love grows stronger.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 2:21 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Check the WW who get it on SI. They broach issues and pursue and recreat the bond. That is what resolves the affair. After that period of a few years the normal dynamic can return. The BH knows he is loved again and has value.

Whoa, whoa, lc.

Couple of points:

1. My wife is remorseful. It took close to 3 years of intensive therapy for her to get there in real, tangible ways that were actually useful to me.

2. My wife showing me her love and determination to stay did not restore my sense of value. I recovered my own sense of value. I did that. It was not something she could take away from me, so it wasn't her place to give it back to me. That was all my work and completely independent of her.

3. I think you've forgotten how angry I was not too long ago, and for how long I was angry.

A remorseful, proactive wife makes a big difference, but it doesn't make shit better. You make your own shit better.

You do it by whatever means necessary. You realize you're burning daylight and you get down to the dirty work of healing, of remolding your life to find value that isn't contingent on "wife" or "marriage".

My "marriage" healed as I healed because its failure stopped consuming my consciousness. When I started to feel better about my life and my recovery from the shock I'd been dealt, I was able to re-prioritize the marriage to accept the good things it brought me without getting strung out over every little way it failed. Know what I mean?

My goal from the beginning was a whole and happy *me*, not a whole and happy marriage. Don't get too sidetracked by what your wife can do for you to help the process along. Assume she's going to do dick and keep moving forward.

Here's an irony: By the time my wife was capable of showing meaningful remorse in a way that would have been useful to me, I no longer needed it. To the point that her remorse makes *me* sad. I mourn that she's got to do so much work to pick up the shattered pieces of herself. It's no balm for my wounds, because my wounds were self-healed.

Always remember: you control you. You make your own choices. You steer your life.

Make peace with it or get buried under it, it's still your responsibility.

That's why your only obligation is to heal yourself and find your happiness, and you are morally obligated as the keeper of yourself to do whatever it takes to get there and use whatever resource happens to be at your disposal.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good points WAL for sure.

I agree with all you say.

But their has been two key differences between your W and mine.

One in IC. That is a form of effort and something i wish my wife would do for her own damn good.

Two is she started talking ... real talking not the impossible real conversations we have.

Those two differences are huge and way more than my wife has ever done.

healing or not and yes I am much better the kid angle kills me.

That has been the one thing that has made this more than anything impossible.

I know for me I should leave but love the kids so much i cant bring myself to do it


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
zombieman
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Member # 28996
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL, I hear you loud and clear, im trying damn hard to work on me and make my life better and find value in myself again. But my WW is very similar to Lost Causes' in that she will not do IC, does not want to deal with the A on any level. My major issue is the lies and deception and mistrust.

In my case she did tell me some positive things, sat there one night and sobbed about what a mess it all was, how sorry she was. I thought she was defogging. Two days later via a keylogger I found her asking POS if he wanted to meet her that week. The meetup never happened as I busted her, rang POSOMs W and went all out again to shut it down. Now before that I had hope. I was moving forward a small amount everyday. I was excerising, eating well, really focussing on myself, starting to not feel like a zombie. Almost believing her stories that she hated POSOM and realised he had used her. And then she fucked it all up again. Then she spent two days begging, promising again, two weeks after that she has 'changed her mind' about all the promises she made and if the A is brought up, she goes really darkside, its scary just how nasty she can be. So really as much as I want to believe her (again) I just can't help thinking it is all just bullshit and it does my head in daily.

So I guess my point is how do you make your own shit better when you have to keep one eye open at all times to make sure you arent being played for a total fool, how do you stay the course and wait for the WW to show some remorse when you have no idea if it will ever come or if she will pack her bags tomorrow and leave and in the meantime doesnt change any of her crap that existed prior to the A and treats you like a doormat.

To me it's a glass half full/half empty situation. Half full, I play it nice and show her im not going to be bitter forever and hold this against her and one day she does show remorse and that she can be trusted and maybe actually gets it and starts behaving like the good person she tells me she is. Half empty, I play it nice and show her im not going to be bitter forever and she continues to be a insensitive bitch and I never know what the hell is going on in her head and I live a life of fear and mistrust (I won't do this for long for my own sanity).

I know for me I should leave but love the kids so much i cant bring myself to do it

It sucks so much, it just makes me want to vomit that she has put me in this position.

[This message edited by zombieman at 4:10 PM, August 17th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 88 | Registered: Jul 2010
Mighty
♂ Member
Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here is what I found in my R. You all struggling aren’t alone. I’m now 16 months past DD#1 and have been through a lot of what you are going into. My wife did the crap like zombieman’s being hateful and vindictive, broken NC’s, etc.. Like lost, my wife hated getting asked questions and quite frankly used sex to pacify me into worry about rocking this “good thing”. My wife terrible things after DD#1. My wife insisted we work on other marriage problems without really dealing with her affairs directly during my first R. I think you are doing good zombie by keeping an eye open and shutting down the A. I did the same. I do feel like you’ve got to at least try to wedge yourself into their relationship and get them apart long enough that your WW can reflect on her own thoughts instead of the whispers of the OM. If she’s going to continue the A, at least she’ll really have to put effort into it. Through this phase though, you need to work on you.

In the beginning of the R, I screwed up massively when it came to working on myself... I tried to work on me to fit her image of what she thought I should be (or at least what I was hearing) with the thought that this would “win her back”. I ended up in a false R by discovering more lies and a continued EA (DD#2). After pointing out her justifications no longer applied to our current marriage, I concluded her selfish behavior and had zero to do with whether or not I was trying to be the man she thought I should be.

I changed tactics and started living for myself. I did it for me to survive. I started becoming the man I wanted to be.. I no longer focused on her or the marriage, just myself and my own healing and growth. It didn’t mean I left the marriage... I became a lot more vocal about it though and very clear on what I’d tolerate and what I wouldn’t. Rocking the boat was no longer a problem for me... I was willing to blow the bottom out and let it sink.. I let my actions speak for me: New banking account under only my name, hiding and shifting assets where she couldn’t touch them, selecting a lawyer, and taking our other house off the market and fixing it up for eventual occupancy. I even scheduled a big expensive vacation and flat out told her I wanted the kids to have one last happy memory of our family before it dissolved; even booked us in separate rooms. I shattered her fantasy world and bitch slapped reality into her in two nasty months of me acting in my own interest without any consideration of her. She hit rock bottom and started to lose it emotionally. I was moving on with my life and she could follow or be left behind.

Here’s what evolved over the last 8 months of this new ?R?: My wife started seeing me as a man and respecting me. She chose to follow instead of leave. She went total NC on the EA and is re-discovering who I am now. She grew afraid of losing me and started trying to win me back. She started owning her shit and is now in IC (something she refused during the first R).

The new R is hardly over, but now at least the conditions are much, much different than they have been in the past. I’m in control of me and she’s in the position where she has to win me back or face being single and potentially having to get used to the idea that I’d remarry someday and the kids may call someone else “mommy”.... (that was a massive blow to her motherly ego)... It’s a waiting game now; Is she changing because she wants to change, or changing out of fear? And I’m still working on healing myself...... she no longer can except by working on her own issues. Can’t say our marriage is going to work out, but I’m no longer in that hell you’re in zombie.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, August 17th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I guess my point is how do you make your own shit better when you have to keep one eye open at all times to make sure you arent being played for a total fool, how do you stay the course and wait for the WW to show some remorse when you have no idea if it will ever come or if she will pack her bags tomorrow and leave and in the meantime doesnt change any of her crap that existed prior to the A and treats you like a doormat.

Might's post is a great start down this path, I think.

Look, I hear you man. My wife was breaking NC at 18 months into R. Out of the blue. It set us back to square one. Why? Because I'd started to trust her, to think I could handle it and still harbored the illusion that "we" could repair it: I'd forgive her and life would go on as it always had before.

In one of those stupid twists of fate, her breaking NC was actually a high point in my healing...because it shattered my expectations. My expectation, you see, was that deep down, she'd made a series of catastrophic decisions, but she still loved me. She was broken, but she still could be redeemed.

Breaking NC sent the message loud and clear that I didn't matter. She'd seen my devastation on D-day. She knew I'd put a shotgun in my mouth one week later while she and the kids slept.

She knew that, and still chose to throw it away over the cheap thrill of sending an e-mail to her lover at 18 months out. Because she thought I was stupid and would never catch her.

That one stroke revealed to me in stark clarity exactly where I ranked in her universe.

My life was worth less to her than a cheap thrill.

That awareness gave me the fortitude I needed to say fuck her and fuck fixing this marriage. Take what I need (sex, seeing my kids on a daily basis, not devastating myself financially), and leave the rest. Focus on me, because I'm the only one who cares about me.

Your WW does not have your best interest at heart. She's a used car salesman trying to make a quick buck, and you're her mark.

Here's the thing about used car salesmen: you can do business with them if you understand the basis of your relationship and don't pretend that they're your friend.

So I looked out for me. I took what I needed. I dispersed my need fulfillment amongst friends, family and co-workers. I went to grad school. I wrote novels. I did my job.

I still played my role of husband, but at the end of the day, it's just a role, just like "programmer" is a role I fill in my current job.

And if she decided she was leaving, if she burned it down, I didn't give a shit. Somebody else would come along to fill the role of "wife" just as easily as I could fill the role of "husband" (if that was what I wanted.)

The more I filled me up, the less I needed the marriage. There weren't a ton of needs for the marriage left to fill. It was useful and optional in my emotional reality.

It wasn't until I got to that point where I could absolutely take it or leave it that her remorse, when it came, developed a sort of value. She had to woo me because I didn't need her. My lack of need kept her on tenterhooks, because she also knew I was just as willing to go as to stay.

If you read my wife's posts, one of the points she comes back to over and over again was that when she really began to "see" my posts, her gut-level reaction was "I have to show him! I have to show him all I've learned and the work I've been doing!"

Because I had stopped asking a long time ago. I had stopped looking. She *had* to show me, or it was all going to break down eventually, because I'd stopped driving the bus.

If your wife isn't in desperation mode, terrified that you're going to leave at the drop of a hat or right after your youngest's HS graduation, chances are she's not doing the work. Any WS who isn't terrified at 5:30 every day wondering if today is the day you decide not to come home, hasn't gotten it. They still believe they haven't lost anything, or if they have, the losses are only temporary and you'll get over it eventually.

If they're asking, "How can we fix this marriage?" They haven't gotten it.

The question should always be: "What do I have to do to convince my spouse that marriage to me is a more attractive option than anything else?"

If you're doing the work to make yourself attractive to *them* in the name of saving the marriage, you're cheating the system. You're being co-dependent by thinking you clean up the mess they made for them. You're telling them that, yes, you agree that you *were* at fault for their affair.

Don't degrade yourself like that. Don't settle for less than you deserve...and we all deserve to be adored by someone else for just being ourselves.


Machiavellian idiot savant

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