I was trying to be positive about my upcoming anniversary but all I keep thinking is that there is nothing to celebrate: to me, an anniversary is a time to remember your wedding day - a day when you were so in love with your spouse that you promised to love & be faithful to that person for the rest of your life.
It just makes me sad thinking about it.
Yes - technically we are together & working on staying together- but I just don't see any reason to celebrate a wedding anniversary.
I just finished telling my husband that I do not want to acknowledge it in any way - no cards, no gifts, no going out.
He had the balls to make a light-hearted joke in response - which really pissed me off, but I let it go.
I continued the conversation with him today by asking what he was expecting on our anniversary & he said he thought that if we were trying to work it out that we would do something to celebrate - like go out or something- but that anniversaries are for the women and if I don't want to celebrate it that it's not a "big deal". Which - I know I tend to scrutinize his words - but this was a pretty crappy choice of words.
Anyone have anything to share?
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:52 PM, June 12th (Saturday)]
about your being suicidal in the past...i am so so glad that you didn't act on it, or if you did, you didn't succeed....suicide is a bit of sore spot with me...had an uncle who was only about 3 years or so older then me, anyways he was 25, i as 22 at the time...and he did kill himself...i was close to him, or as close as he would allow...i was much closer to his brother my other uncle who was only a year older than me...anyways, the guilt that goes with this for every member of the family is huge...i eventually made peace with it, my other uncle and 2 of my aunts who were also in the same age bracket...have never been the same..one of them is somewhat cracked to boot....all because of his suicide....
question: when you were suicidal, was it ever diagnosed as to what the cause was...?...
and as much as you can take the blame for 50% of what went wrong in your marriage, his cheating his 100% his...there are always other ways to cope...and never is cheating a productive way to cope and deal...
as to whether or not you were banned from wayward...have no clue...did you vent or something in there, did you get a pm from the mods???...email them and ask...
honest: yay, happy about you on your way to your masters...did you register for classes yet?
i love the picture tryn made for you...
I'm just still trying to get my head around everything.
I have to set him and myself free.
yes, yes and yes
maybe for now you should stop drinking all together....just a thought...and most certainly if drinking, take NO MEDS OF ANY KIND....dangerous thing to do!!!
about your wifes hangin out:
i do this too, i like hangin with my kids and their freinds, being freindly but still being a parent...but my kids are all still teens...maybe this is her way of staying connected to them...the flirting she does with the boys..well that may need to be curtailed...if the shoe was on the other foot and middle aged man was flirting the way she was flirting with younger people, the middle aged man would be put on the carpet...
i also think you should talk to her about this..
I am feeling torn again about not telling my SIL about FWW and BIL phone sex when I discovered it just before dday
...wow...don't know what to say about this one...
your unanswered question: without her saying the words, she answered the question...and for you i think letting it be would probably be best.....of course i don't think this is something i would be able to do...but then again i am not reconcilling...
allgood: i think when a relationship starts when you are as young as you and your husband were, to mature at the same rate, well its just not going to happnen...you hope in those relationships that the couple grows together as opposed to apart...in general though most woman are more mature then men...most women are more practical when it comes to making life decisions..men, when its about money...relationships always change because the people in them always change...times changes, circumstances change....i would think that the key would be to find common ground...separate from all of this crap and separate from your kids....start from there and work on it a bit at a time..and tak to each other about what each of expects from the other, and what each of you would like to see from each other...and what common goals do you share...what do you each dream about for your futures...as far as your anniversary goes...it is still an important day, more so because you are trying to reconcile...honor the day and you should honor each other...it may not be what it once was, but that doesn't mean that you cannot find new meaning in it for yourselves...and like me and so many of us, it really is the day that you started your family, so if that helps look at it that way...
fun: i think you too should slow down the liquor...i could understand if you have one glass of whatever when you come home...as long as you don't NEED it....as long as its one and it doesn't escalate from there....if the one drink helps in taking the edge off, then i say go for it...as long as it doesn't become a need...and then i think you should have at least 2 days during the week or weekend that you abstain.....just to help keep you on the straight and narrow with it...
the flirtiness has to go though...
so how do you feel about things after speaking to the 'c'...???
We got home tonight and I went to change clothes and started beating on a pillow on the bed. She came in as asked what was up and I told her. She was with OM the entire HS time. Freshman year FWW was with OM#1, sophomore – senior year till dday with OM#2. That entire time I was listening to her tell me how I was not a good parent. How I did not even care to go see him in band at football games, but anytime I said I was coming along, she made it clear I was not wanted, and I was enough of an ass to listen to her. This was something she and DS#2 did, I would not like it, I needed to do something else, etc, etc.
While I was changing clothes, I pointed out she was in the kitchen entertaining DDs, DD boyfriend, and SIL. All of whom knew of A’s while they were going on. She walked out of the room and did not talk to me for the next hour. To make things worse, I broke out a bottle of sparkling wine for everyone to toast the last four years and all of our memories. FWW clearly got the sentiment implied and left the room.
Later she wanted to talk and wanted to know if I can be mad why she can’t be defensive. You know, she is right. She can be defensive and minimize as much as she wants, I just do not want to be a part of it. Also found out that yesterday she poured most of the booze and my ambient down the sink. Never mind that she was the one last night passed out drunk with Flexerol.
We are not good for each other. There is a reason we did not get along for 20 years.
Ok, first the hug, now the lecture
1. You MUST stop mixing the alcohol and meds!!!! Period amen!!!
2. Take it easy on yourself. You have a very very rough weekend with a lot of triggers and NO SUPPORT for yourself!!! You are faced with people who you feel are not fully in your corner, even though logically you understand they were in a hard place. But emotionally, you still feel betrayed.
Are there any friends or family members on YOUR side of the family that you can invite over for tomorrow? You have so much attacking your emotions now without a break.
Keep venting here, journal as much as you can, but DO NOT engage with WW right now when both of you have been drinking. IT will not go anywhere right now.
those years are gone ats, there is nothing you can do to bring them back...and you have the present and the future...do you want to spend it like this...or do you want to enjoy what you can.....as fucked up as things were...it is WERE....it is in the past....and i know only too well how the past does like to rear its ugly head...but its up to you to put it back in place...and calmly and rationally tell your wife what you need....i get the impression that you are not telling her what you need NOW..to feel better...and you really just need for her to acknowledge it so that you can move on....and yes it sucks that the bs needs to work so hard at as one of the other members likes to say...unfucking the donkey....
hang in there ats...do not give up yet...never decide anything when your emotions are raw...
But, Atsen, are you listening?? Hang in there!!!
and on some level, he did have a right to take those choices from me. If you know someone well enough to know they're going to make a stupid choice and if your child is involved, well, what would you do?
M3, I think it’s fantastic that you are reviewing your life and your actions – that takes a lot of guts in the aftermath of dday. However, my concern is that you are “romanticizing” your XH’s and WH’s actions. Taking on responsibility for your own, (WHERE IT IS DUE) is one thing; taking on someone’s’ actions is quite another. Don’t gang up on yourself, M3. Don’t accept poor behavior from someone who loves you as being your fault. Ok, you weren’t the best M and W – does that really justify XH’s and WH’s behavior? I don’t think so. Btw, did you ask him why he didn’t dump him then? What led you to believe that it was altruism on his part?
Not long after DDay I was sitting on the couch with WH and I turned to him and said "Well, that's it. Between the two of us we've now officially done pretty much everything you can do wrong in a marriage, and we're still sitting here next to each other and we're still making love -- that's got to be worth a lot."
Sometimes I wonder if I am getting stuck in "victim mode" in my healing. I don't want to explore that far into what I did to add to the events that led up to the affair. I think I'm afraid to, because the way I am, I would end up taking the full blame as usual, which is not true.
I have to set him and myself free
First the good – I am so sorry that you had to relive that. However, (and I know this sounds sadistic) but maybe we have to relive some moments to make our peace with them, KWIM? Or to allow our souls to do a good clearing out of toxins.
Now the bad – Why the h did you watch that movie? If you knew that it had a A them and or as soon as you realised that you were going to be triggered – why on earth punish yourself like that? Why put yourself through that trauma – it almost feels like self abuse? Grrrrr
Now the good again – (((((Miracle))))))
Sorry you hurt, my friend.
Wow. I don’t know quite what to say.
Your W continues to show poor boundaries. She continues to behave in a manner which makes you feel that you are being manipulated. The people who knew about the A continue to behave as they did before IN YOUR HOUSE! And you continue to carry your W’s burden (her secret with BIL). And all this AFTER she said that she was going to support you during a tough weekend. No wonder you are self medicating with drugs and alcohol! It must feel like the twilight zone there.
Ats, I am going to say something now which is going to sound sexist and paternalistic (but I would do so even if you were a woman), so there.
This is your home. You are the man of the house. Lay down the law dammit. Set your boundaries on unacceptable behaviour (and this includes yourself). It sounds like your W is pushing you and I would question her motives. She has prob painted a picture of you over the years to her support team to justify her A – you getting drunk just reinforces that. Dont do that to yourself, Ats. You are better than that. And your DS deserves better memories to commemorate his achievement(and for your own sake, stay the heck away from any A questions this weekend - you have enough on your plate ).
Btw,Congratulations on DS!!! And all the best for the rest of the weekend.
Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.
Ats: Do you think this was just a particularly bad weekend, fllled with triggers, and is really a departure from how the rest of the R has been going? I know with myself, if I trigger, or I start to get depressed(er) I have to really force myself to remember the good stuff that has been happening since DDay, otherwise it just spirals out of control & becomes something way bigger than it should.
Just a thought.
I can feel your pain & I am really sorry. I agree with what everyone is saying about the alcohol & meds. I definitely drink more than I did before DDay, but because I have little kids I really can't let it go too far - (and before anyone gets concerned I'm talking about 2 drinks after the kids go to bed about 1x/wk) but if that wasn't the situation, I certainly see the draw in self-medicating.
But, in the end, you are only delaying/masking the problem.
I also agree that a frank discussion should be had with your wife as to her flirty behavior. My H is a big flirt too - I haven't seen it in years because we do not go out in settings where it would be likely to occur- but I've called him out on it & I would not hesitate to go ape-shit on him if I saw it again. (I have a lot of repressed hostility. Lol. That's why I love my kick-boxing class - seriously - is there something you can do like run, bike, etc. where you can just go get our all of your frustration & clear your head?)
And, I forget - are you in mc?
Miracle: it is good to hear from you. I hope you are doing better. And - in response to LostHeart's question, I assume you finished watching the movie because your children were present & you needed to keep up appearances. Am I right? If so, man , you are strong - I would've feigned illness & left the room.
I want to sincerely thank you for your response to my anniversary related question. I didn't originally post the question here because the most frequent posters are usually in just as much pain as I am, but you really gave me a nice way to think about it that doesn't feel like a total sham - about starting our family. I like that.
I am still pissed tho that my H is not able to provide me with any meaningful dialogues about these things. It just reeks of false R to me - but I'm trying to remember that he was never like this - never emotionally supportive - you should've seen him when our dog died. I don't know if any of you are dog lovers, but omg - I was devastated. I didn't think I was going to be able to stop crying the day it happened. The drive home from dropping the dog off at the place, I just looked out the window & cried. It was all my H could do to hold my hand. It felt so awkward. This was just a few months before the A started so we had already drifted apart. (Course I was unaware of this as the 1 woman in the 1 woman show doesn't get much time for reflecting upon things).
But, anyhoo, thank you.
M3: I agree with the others. The self-reflection is great - as is self-blame because it helps us feel in control. While you made some excellent points - I do think you are taking on too much blame here. As you know, there are always more constructive ways to deal with any problem than have an A. I know in my h's case he came to the conclusion that nothing was going to change our relationship & gave up. (I can get the giving up, but first there has to be some attempt to fix the problem. Complete horseshit.)
Yes, I hear everyone on the alcohol intake and I have cut way back. Friday was just a few beers with supper, Saturday a few beers during the cookout, and a rum and coke and half glass of wine for the toast after the ceremony. I have no plans, nor budget to soon replace what FWW poured down the sink. She told me that is what they did when their mother got drunk, they poured her booze down the sink or thinned it with water.
I feel like this weekend has been an epiphany about FWW rather than just a bad patch. I am tired of being told I am having feelings at inappropriate times. I am tired of being told it is embarrassing to have me upset. I am tired of her first response always being defensiveness.
My parents were here yesterday and will be around the next two days. I did vent with my dad yesterday as plans shifted and changed throughout the day, but they are kind of overwhelmed by it all.
The day starts back up with family coming by around 10. At 8, I tried to wake FWW to see if she still wanted to talk. She said she wanted to sleep. So I am getting a coffee, getting dressed, picking up some form yesterday and will start to get the boat ready. FWW and I will be separated today as I do the boat think with one group, and she does shopping and beach with the non-boaters. Assuming plans do not change again.
Tonight the girls and boyfriend head home. FWIW, I believe my issues have been low key and just between FWW and I. SD#1, as usual, is getting the attention for being the problem child and difficult one.
FWW and I have argued and talked about so many things over the last 8 months, I no longer know what it is I want or need for now. How do I tell her I want an adult partner? How can I expect her to change 50 years of FOO issues in 6 months or a year?
I am beginning to question R. It is beginning to look and feel more like BS learning to accommodate WS. Yes, I know there are people here on SI who say they have made it, but they all seem so very far out. Where are the people who are 2 – 3 years out, but are making it? I thought Tryn was one, but now am not so sure. Old dipstick, do you consider yourself R’d? How long did it take, are you happy with your relationship now?
Maybe the lights are coming on and I am seeing how difficult and long this hallway is to get to R, and I am worried that getting their with FWW will be more like getting DS safely through HS than a journey of mutual growth and love. I am drawn to the exit doors to try a different room with another or no relationship. I have always been comfortable with my own companionship maybe that is where I need to go.
I am wallowing and rambling again, no need to reply. I appreciate the advice so far. I really did scare myself enough with the drinking that I am putting the vodka, tequila, and rum aside for now. And I will take another piece of advice, and take a 5 mile bicycle ride before everyone is up and going.
Has anyone else had this issue?
i think right now because you are in a trigger filled, stress filled and time constraint enviroment you have not had time to process all that you need to to get through this kind of event without feeling those triggers acutely....you knew before the weekend was here that it would be filled to the brim with these triggers and stress inducers...and you decided to sefe medicate with alcohol and ambien....which in turn seems to have triggered your wife....she shared something with you that was probably painful for her...
She told me that is what they did when their mother got drunk, they poured her booze down the sink or thinned it with water.
wow...this is sad to me...and she shared it with you, part of reconcilling is sharing that which is painful, and she shared with you instead of finding another outlet for her own pain...which is part of what got you here in the first place i am thinking...
ats and allgood: your ws's are broken people who do not have the skills needed to cope, to communicate affectively and the manual on how to make you feel better...and as much as it sucks that you have to show them, that is exactly what you must do....in all marriages or i should say in all relationships there needs to be give and take, and both parties need to communicate what their needs are to the other person...and sometimes allgood this requires you to spell it out because when it comes to this stuff they are just incapable, almost to a stupid level....in their own way both of your ws's are working on it, not your way, not the right way, not even a way that is working the way they think it should...but they are trying...and they both think that they are trying really hard...and i get the impression that they feel like their backs are up against a wall, and that is because it really is...and they do not know how to cope with it..coping is not what they do best, coping in healthy ways is not what they do, its how they got into this mess in the first place...coping is a skill, and its one that needs to be learned, ats you are not coping well now either...turning to drink and meds at the same time is a dangerous coping skill that needs to be adjusted..there is nothing wrong with taking meds when you need them, mixing them with alcohol is unacceptable for you or anyone for the matter..the consequences can be deadly...
coping...it is ultimately what we all must learn to do, coping with all this new reality....and it sucks that this was heaped upon us, but it was and nothing is going to change that...so we learn to accept it and cope with it.....
allgood: tell you ws exactly what you want from him for your anniversary...don't dress it down either...because if he does what you initially told him which was to ignore it basically...this will end up crushing you yet again...your ws needs you to spell it out for him...he's seem to have needed this from the getgo...and then always complied...yes it would be nice if he could figure it out on his own...but we already know that this is not in his realm of reality...if you tell him what you need and he complies...isn't that whats important...he cannot change into this other persona overnite, and he might not ever change where he will instinctively know what to do....he just may not be capable.....so accept this part of him and just tell him what you need or want or desire...then its in his hands whether or not he can comply.....plant those seeds...
lh2 and allgood: the movie...i have been doing just fine with affair scenes in movies, hell i still watch my soap opera...someone is always cheating on someone....that was not what bothered me...it was that one scene that the husband attempted to make his wife a "hole" that got to me...that is the biggest hurt i have suffered in this mess...knowing i was a hole in such a disgusting way....i know i was a hole for most of my marriage, but i never felt like one for all of that....that one nite where i was hysterically crying was no mistake, i was the ultimate hole...i was not a human being to him with feelings, i was the "hole", that nite i knew i was a hole, that nite changed me...that entire event changed me......i lost of peice of who i was that nite...so when seeing this scene in the movie, it brought it right back to life....i kept my cool, was completely seething within...and most of what happened next in the movie was a blur....i couldn't concentrate on the rest of the movie.....it didn't help that the movie just got worse from that point on and really stupid....before that scene though it was kind of funny, even though you knew there would be something going on with the husband and the ow....the cast was amazing...but the movie sadly was not....and aside from that i won't hide from stuff like this..infideltiy is everywhere, can't hide from it, cant' avoid it...and i would rather face it head on and conquer it....i am not so raw anymore....still have not wrapped my head around all that had happened, i don't know if i ever will....there is just so much stuff....but i choose to move on, i choose to be me again....and me...well, she doesn't hide...
lh2: how are you my friend?...how are you commemorating your daughter with your kids?...(((lh2)))
At 8 months out, I too wanted to leave... But look at me today. This horrible thing that has happened to me... and it still hurts sometimes... but with that, I have someone that is loving me in a very good manor.
Today, I am no longer afraid to leave my W.... If I am not treated with nothing ohter desirables, I am leaving... I commit to the same for my W.. I am doing the same... 100% desirables...
All learn at Retrouvaille.
I did not take notes so I am not gonna post replys to anyone ... at this time ... I will try and keep up with the thread and post replys tho ...
sorry I have not been around ... no good excuse just been pre-occupied ...
anyway you all have been in my thoughts and prayers ...
I was not at my best; I threw my wedding band at her and told her to stay for the week. She and SIL could have fun carousing for guys; maybe both give BIL a call.
My folks were here this evening to talk about DS#2's upcoming trip with them. They could tell I was hurting. We talked, and as I explained the situation to them, I really felt like I am done. I feel like I have been leading and dragging FWW along. She continues to gaslight herself and others.
I am off work tomorrow and it is tempting to see if I can get an appointment with the attorney. Filing is not the same as divorcing, and I could at least get things started. There is still time to take up the offer from my employer for free housing for myself and DS#2, he would actually be closer to his school next year.
I have almost 20 more years to work to retire; 25 – 30 more healthy years are not unreasonable. I can start over. If 25% of people are involved in affairs, then the odds are that if there is a next time I will find one of the 75% who are not. Lord knows that I now know what to look for.
FWW has done tremendous self-discovery, and is a better person, but is still a person who lied to me for years, has had 4 affairs (one involving her BIL) and a couple ONS (that I know of) in her life. It is just that for me it does not feel like she will ever be able to do enough. I feel awful for what this will do to the boys in the short term, but I was only willing to R for the kids, not just stay together.
I am not sure where I am on Tryn’s chart, my self-esteem is actually better than ever. One of the odd dynamics coming out of all of our counseling is that I now understand that I was nowhere near so bad a person as I had been lead (willing?) to believe, and FWW is nowhere near so good a person as she had believed.
Today, I am no longer afraid to leave my W.... If I am not treated with nothing other desirables, I am leaving... I commit to the same for my W.. I am doing the same... 100% desirables...
your ws's are broken people who do not have the skills needed to cope, to communicate affectively and the manual on how to make you feel better...and as much as it sucks that you have to show them, that is exactly what you must do.
But also, you yourself, must also understand how to be a good partner...
While I was changing clothes, I pointed out she was in the kitchen entertaining DDs, DD boyfriend, and SIL. All of whom knew of A’s while they were going on.
You have yet to pardon your W... you will never get back what you lost... Never. And a good relationship does not make statements that hurt your partner. It really is about today... now...
And yes, if you cannot pardon, cannot forgive.... Then I agree, you must D... your happiness depends on this.
And that chart.. self esteem, Performance to me means healthy brain... and yes, you will find another woman... another partner... we all have different investments with our relationships... For me, not sharing time with future grandkid, my son and daughter means much to me...plus everything we built togather is meaningful. But the main thing is this... my W wanted and is trying hard. For her I think she stayed with me out of fear, but now we, enjoy each other. I changed too..
Good luck to you ats... I am sorry you are in so much hurt and pain... 8 months is still so fresh... I know it all too well... I also know with change comes happiness too.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:16 PM, June 13th (Sunday)]
First… forgiveness is a choice… It is not a feeling… You can make your brain do these things…
1) Make the choice to forgive
2) Make the deliberate and irrevocable choice not to tell anyone what they did.
3) Be pleasant to them should you be around them
4) If conversation ensues, say that which would set them free from guilt
5) Let them feel good about themselves
6) Protect them from their greatest fears
7) Keep it up today, tomorrow, this year and next
8) Pray for them
See each and every one of us can do all these things. It takes some brain strength and you may fail occasionally. But you get good at it in a very short time.
Studies that show what people in healthy marriages do:
- Shared Spirituality
- Have a support system of other couples who strongly believe in Marriage
- Frequently Affirm each other
- Spend quality and quantity time together
-Communicate and Listen easily and well
- Approach conflict constructively as a learning experience
- Have a mutually satisfying sexual relationship
- Are open to change
- Have s sense of commitment and faithfulness to one another
- Have unity based on shared values and goals
- Have a sense of Play and humor
- Have a deep sense of Trust
- continue to experience Forgiveness
- Value service to each other
These are Desire Builders
- Positive attitude
- “Present and Future” Focused
- Cooperative attitude
- Positive “self Talk”
These are Desire destroyers
- Negative attitude
- Continueing Negative behaviors
- No communication
- No reliance on God or lack of spirituality
- Holding a grudge’
- Name calling
- Negative “self talk”
- “Must win” Attitude
- Living the past
When you first meet someone new... you have all the above in a natural way... over time, things change and you lose vision, lose those happiness feeling because what you thought was "better" ends up not being so good... we fake things when we meet someone new.. we don't tell them our natual hair color... about our teeth we got fixed... the bad things we did in history.... and all this comes out over time... We must then fight to keep Desire destroyers from taking place... Both partners in the relationship must be aware... How will both know if you both don't learn these things... please, Retrouvaille is good and will help... do it.
Peace for all!
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:32 PM, June 13th (Sunday)]
i think you will regret these actions if you do not take a little time to think them through...throwing a wedding band is not calm and rational...its anger, pure and simple anger...which btw you have a right to feel....but not to act on.....act on your beliefs, act on faith, act on facts, act on time....time is your friend, as much as it is an enemy it is your freind....i just do not want to see you take actions that you will end up regretting...and i don't mean a week from now, but a year from now or 10 years from now....i think you need to give it a bit more time, and you both need counseling....and if after giving it your all...after when your emotions are not so raw and you could be calm and rational, if then you want to proceed to the path of divorce, then go for it...but not until you could honestly say that you will not have regrets about this later....take the path of least regret always...
Give yourself some time. There is nothing wrong with going to the lawyer just for info, but don't file as of yet. As Miracle has pointed out, your posts have been sounding positive.
I suggest, rereading some of your latest posts to make sure of your feelings. You have every right to be angry, upset, devastated, betrayed, etc!!!