She told me that after a lifetime of leaving jobs and an xH when things became difficult, she wants to stay and work through the issues in our M with me.
Also, after 6 months of TT and his admission that the A had been going on for 8 years, I finally told him, Enough. No More. LTA's are so unique and IMHO require a different set of rules for R
Yeah, it's kind of make it up as you go along, huh?
Do you know what percentage of marriages survive an A? About 30%. And THAT includes ONS, etc. According to After the Affair, only 40 of affairs last more than 2 years and FEW last more than 4 years.
I don't even think of my WH's A as an A anymore; I think of it as a "shadow marriage". Very triangulated.
Yeah, it's kind of make it up as you go along, huh?
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 12:08 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]
I call this...
Bite the Hand That feeds you.
I didn't want to hurt you... we can forgive, but we never will forget.
Peace to all today...
[This message edited by trynhard at 12:55 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]
couldn't help thinking (and I hope this does not come across as trying to minimize the value of her H's ability to come clean)
how much more difficult it is for any of our S's who have been involved in these LTA's to do this for us. Imagine the extent of what it is they would have to tell us in order to "come clean." Imagine the fear of our reaction or (and this I completely understand) even the feeling that they are protecting us from so much of the awful truth. My H gave me TT over a period of about 6 months and each time it hurt like hell but honestly, I don't think I could have handled having him spill everything to me at once. I know this is just me
i read this and got so angry...of course there is a better way...trickle truth is torturous...you know they are not telling you everything and insisting all the while that they are...the damage that it causes is for the most part irrepairable...
for our spouses, the ones with a past that would make one's mouth hang open for hours,...i can understand not telling it all in one shot...but never ever should they say that is all there is...the phrase i gave pfm was "i am not ready to tell you what i need to tell right now"...so i would know that he was trying to find the words and that he was no longer lying to me which is huge..we were already lied to for so long, i would think it so necessary that at this point in time, the lies completely stop...
trickle truth killed our marriage....it was the one of the major requirements i laid down for pfm...and he couldn't deliver...i needed to see that he was willing to put his ass on the line, to trust me with this worst truths...if he could not trust me, i knew i would never trust him again...and sure enough i don't...his words til this day do not match his actions...
I do value total honesty but I have to say that had I learned the ugly facts of my H's LTA all at once, I'm not so sure I would have survived the initial blow. TT for me really was an easier way to deal with his A
like i said, there was still a way to deliver all the details without lying further...how much further along do you think you would have been if he didn't lie to you, and simply told you that he needed to process how to tell you all you needed to know...i envy those who get it all...
And yes, I still do have a bit of my wall up but not nearly as much as I have in the past. Fortunately my H has been pretty consistent with his behavior and his commitment to me and our family and that has allowed me to open my heart a little more with each passing day.
I think this is key - time and seeing some real, positive changes in our S's.
i am glad that you only have a bit left of that wall...and that you are opening your heart to him again..i really believe that with his consistent efforts meshed with your open heart will finally give you peace and happiness....kind of like lovin....who to me is the epitomy of this whole concept...her head knows better and will look out for what it need to see while her heart is wide open, it is clear and loving and happy...
you sound amazingly put together...i am always astounded of how you seem to have this air of confidence and yet this huge vulnerablility at the same time...you are a woman who knows who she is...and you are a genuine loving soul...
The walls do have to come down at some point for R to happen -- but not until the time is right
i think when we first find out about who we are married to, this happens on d-day...and i like to refer to it as discovery day...because you really do discover things about this other person you never knew...you learn just who it is you are married to, the facade that you had begins to melt away and hence the discovery process begins...once the discovery process is through, at least to the point of now knowing who, for the most part, the person you call your spouse is....who they are, how they did it, and hopefully why they did it....once all the information is dealt with, and you know without too much doubt that you indeed do have all the details you require...the bs nows lays down the requirements needed to make reconcilliation possible if the bs decides and chooses to go down this path....some requirements are given along the way before you get to this point, but by this point most if not all the requirements should be in place...then it is up to the ws to meet them...these are requirements, not choices....of course they have the choice not to meet them, then the choice becomes yours..do you still wish to move forward knowing that the ws is refusing to what is required, which is usually a need, not a want but a need...anyways, its all a matter of negotiation until both can come to an agreement of sorts of how to proceed...it is finally at this point that reconcilliation takes place...prior to reconcilliation (which is alot like making a deal) is when all the particulars need to be ironed out....not during, which is why there seems to be so many false reconcilliations...for me anyways i don't believe it starts until both parties discuss and agree on the terms of the new relationship...and once all the terms have been agreed upon, then working on the marriage comes next...the first part is so that there can be a marriage the second part is so the marriage can now function and find a new working relationship....
the matters of the infidelity need to be resolved for the most part first before you can now work on the marriage...because for the bs, the bs cannot work on something without have some sense of security in the fact that there is a marriage worth saving, that the actions that hurt so much will no longer be, that now the vows that were made at the time of getting married will be honored, cherished and done so with total reverance and dilligence....and it is at that point to me anyways that reconiclliation is active and in place....
now part of this process is letting go....letting go of the fear ...that fear can grip us, paralyze us and keep us from moving forward..but the fear is not real...it is merely an illusion of sorts....because holding onto will not protect us, it will still hurt....holding onto that fear will never let us find peace or happiness...letting go of the fear and trusting in god and in yourself is what is needed....trust yourself to know that if this ever happens again you have an immediate plan of what to do, trust yourself to know that your head will look for what it needs but your heart will not be closed off to love, because holding onto the fear does exactly that....knowledge is power....your head has the knowledge, let the heart have the joy....and YES I KNOW THIS IS SO MUCH EASIER SAID THEN DONE.. doing this takes practice, doing this take vigilence, doing this scares you....but doing this can bring you what you desire most of all, what you need most of all...to be loved wholly and completely and know that you are the one and only for your spouse....to have what you thought you had when you first took those marriage vows....only this time around you have the knowledge of knowing who you truly are married to.... the first time around you never really did....even though we didn't know it at the time...knowing it now makes a difference......
o.k. done ramblin on this point, again i hope it makes sense...its that neverendingseeitinmyheaditis....
ats: i love love love that you and your wife had that talk...the communication skill you posess and your openess to her and all she says is truly remarkable...so yay for you....and i am happy that through this communication you are placing some boundaries....even though you are not making them requirements you are at least making them, or should i say requesting them and so far she seems to comply....and i am happy for you.....i still get the sense that you don't believe yet and are holding some major reservations but still giving the benefit of doubt which is smart....i also get the sense that your heart is open, maybe slightly guarded, but not much if at all.....
I didn't want to hurt you... we can forgive, but we never will forget.
you know when they say i didn't want to hurt you i believe them...they really didn't, nor did they ever believe that they would get caught...but the fact that they never once thought of that possiblity is i think what gets us all....how could you take such chances and believe that it would never come out, there is no such thing a foolproof when the deed is based in fear or evil....even if it takes years as it did for all of us, it comes out....and even in cases of death, the truth always comes out,..sooner or later the bs will have to deal with this knowledge.....and then you wonder how they ever have been happy living this way....it is not a happy existance....
and yes we can forgive and yes we will never forget....
as much as i would really love to forget, short of alzhiemers....that is not a viable option..
(edited for lots of mistakes, and i am sure i didn't get them all, i type sometimes faster then i spell)
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 2:03 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]
i read this and got so angry...of course there is a better way
It gives me some strange resolve. I'm amazed by them. How could I have been so calm? I was so hurt I was practically on fire.
It's time for WH and I to start talking, really talking.
He keeps asking me what I'm thinking. I probably haven't heard that out of him in 5 years.
He told me he started crossing the intersection of the street he walks down to work in a different direction "because he has new habits now."
He raged about how our alcoholic neighbor was never going to get better because everything out of her mouth was a rationalization.
He took care of both babies by himself one night last week.
He made it through a visit with his mother without getting drunk.
He noticed his sister asked me about OW and came over to make sure I was OK.
He stood in the absolute chaos of two fighting boys, two crying babies, meat on the grill, guest coming over, dogs stealing the corn, and didn't lose his temper and did at least 50% of the work last night -- AND asked me what I was thinking -- AND said he thinks I'm secretly planning to divorce him because I dont' talk to him.
I hope it goes well, as well as these sorts of things can go. I'm not going to post or check SI until its done. Or see my IC. Or talk to anyone. I need to do this with no outside influences. It might take all summer, I don't know.
fnf i wasn't aware that this ever changed!!
i fully understand your point of view, and i also was not aware that you never asked...and no you are not a coward, you know who you are and what you are willing to deal with...be proud of that...there are so many people who hide who they are, who go with what others believe....i admire that...always be true to yourself...its kind of how you can be true to other...and you have been a true freind to me.....
m3: YAY.... ....you are amazing....keep us posted on the talk....i agree with you completely, not only is he ready but i feel you are ready as well...
miracle. Honored to know me. Wow! That was a very nice thing to say. Had you polished off a few mudslides when you said that?
I'm not sure m3 would want to think of me as adopting her baby. She seems like way to good of a mother to let a crazy old fart like me into her little girls life.
The business deal is headed in the right direction. My W started saying she was sorry about how she acted, yesterday afternoon and into last night. Sorry she was stupid, bla, bla, bla. She means it, but if I do something like this again, she will repeat her actions.
I guess what reall pisses me off about this is the fact that I am very careful and over analize these deals. I am always open and up front with her about all of this. Do not lie, deceive or try to fool her into thinking things are risk free in this. I go over everything I can show her to make sure she knows where we stand. I do not try to sell her on it, just present the facts, good and bad. She will agree to do it and then sometimes turn around just before or after closing the deal. Crazy? Yes.
forgive. Men are pigs. Just not all of us. It is nice to know that you women here actually do value us guys here. I sometimes wonder if you all just tolerate us, feel sorry for us, sort of like you would a stray dog. Just don't think about fixing us, please.
m3. Speaking of babies! Do I have to ask? You are getting lax with your reporting duties. Is she anymore spoiled than she was the last time we had a update.
nofun. Hang in there. This is a long trip. Come her and let everyone help with your pain.
Tribe. I know yesterday I said this place is magic, but what I should have said is that the people here are magic. That is where the true magic here is. In the people. Now could someone cast a spell that would improve my spelling, please.
Hugs to the tribe.
as for theose mudnd told him..so yay mrs ats...
as for theose mudslides...nope...no booze, just me....
listen, if your deal goes through and you make lots and lots of money, i'll let you adopt me!! ...my original dad sucked a moose egg and was always broke...so i would be happy to be adopted by you...although that would have made you like 10 when when i was born...the youngest dad ever...i don't mind having a really young dad, as long you don't mind having a really old daughter...
and before you ask, no i aint drinkin now either...
FnF and Miracle: Just as there are all kinds of people, there are different ways that each of us can deal with the pain of the betrayal. I understand and appreciate both of your points of view. TT was the worst for me, but I do agree that I possibly couldn't digest EVERYTHING on Dday, but would have wanted WH to answer me truthfully when I asked him questions over the following days and weeks and months. I didn't ask for nitty gritty details either, just basic facts. So perhaps, for me, the middle road would have been better. The false R killed me.
Miracle: I hear the pain you have and wish there was something that I could say to help you.
One thing I have realized, is that although WH has not given up OW, there have been ways that we are starting to communicate better, which is better for everyone involved whether or not we ever really could R (if he gives OW up, and that's just the start) It's something I can learn if I ever have another relationship, if my relationship with my mother and my kids. I am learning that it's all right to ask for help and not try to be superwoman and then feel resentful because my kids don't see I need help (Really, I TAUGHT them I WAS superwoman!!! LOL, "I can do everything, by myself!!" (sarcasm intended))
Ats: I am so very glad that you and your WH are communicating again. I knew that you were going through a rough spot, and actually from what you posted about your discussion, it's a blessing in disguise. You were both able to recognize a problem and how you both were hurting and trying to make a plan for dealing with something like this in the future. BRAVO!!!! All of this is a process, not a straight road.
M3: I'm glad that you feel that you and your WH are coming to a place that you can talk. It does seem that your WH is making progress. The only thing I would suggest, is that you work on things a little at a time. But, talking is great and a move forward. I am so happy for you.
Dip: I feel for you about having to deal with your WW's BPD. I believe my mother is borderline also, and it's a very tough thing to deal with. The only good thing that came out of this whole sordid A, is that there was a shift and I have learned to deal with my mother after all these years. One thing that has helped tremendously is the book "Walking on Eggshells". The main problem with BPD is fear, and that is probably what you were dealing with with your WW and the business deal you were working with. It's not a fear of you, or your abilities, but perhaps, the fear of the unknown.
Miracle: I understand about fathers. My IC and my mother both agree that my current WH is very much like my father....the charm, promising the moon, etc etc etc. My father's charm came from Alcoholism and he was a "sober" Alcoholic for 35 years. He also was always broke and I ended up paying for his funeral since he didn't have any life insurance.
IC says my biggest problem is the fear of abandonment...and lo and behold that's what the important men in my life have done. <sigh>
I have always relied on myself and have been a "single" mother for over 34 years (neither WH's were really there physically or emotionally, even when we were married) I took care of everything: my mother (BPD), my eldery grandparents, my kids, my self, working full time, going back for my masters, taking care of the house inside and out...fixing things around the house, etc and BBQing!! (I'm not good at it, though!)
All these years, I think the resentment just filled up inside of me. I'm trying not to let go of it. As I was powerwashing the deck this afternoon (yes, I do that too) I realized, I should just let go of the resentment and just make decisions to do what I feel is needed to be done, and not feel like I was doing a job that someone else "SHOULD" be doing. KWIM? I should try to enjoy the moment.
DS 15, who has wisdom beyond his years has helped with some of his poignant observations. He said, "I think Daddy has ADD like my brother, DS 11" and I realized he was right. Also, during the winter, DS 15 wanted to learn calligraphy, so I picked up a book and some pens and we proceeded to teach ourselves. I was getting frustrated because I wanted it to be perfect and DS 15 says, "Mom, this is supposed to be fun. It's 'art', enjoy the process." So I let go and did enjoy it then.
Now, if I can only apply that to my life, and enjoy the "process" and the "work in progress" I'll be better off.
i still get the feeling that you the eternal opitimist is still holding out some hope, even a shred...i worry about you...you are so hesitant to let go...and be careful, this communication that you are starting to develop might not last...your ws is extremely manipulative, and i don't put too much past him...be prepared for it...
and btw speaking of masters...whats the story?? have you signed up for the classes yet?..( i know im a little pushy )
m3: i forgot to mention it earlier...i started reading that book...i was blown away by some of it already...so far, according to the first few guidelines she has written about whether to go or to stay...the pfm he was prior...according to this book so far i should have left him years ago.. ...i like the way she poses these direct questions...and after asking one in particular, i can see how you could have an immediate negative answer...and obviously its one of those questions that the answer means i should leave....ought to be interesting to see how this turns out...
I also fantasize about leaving him with the kids so he can see how tough it is to be the one doing everything. I never 180'd him and lately I feel a strong urge to do so, he is on the fence and won't even say the words I Love You to me and then I think do I want to be stuck here in a loveless marriage or do I suck it up for the kids...are these common thoughts at one year out? I don't come here as often as I did because I feel I wallow more in self pity or trigger more after being here, but I don't really have anywhere to go for advice...my close friends are far away and I never told any family. We are still in counseling, but I still have a hard time opening up to him out side of counseling we go about every three weeks.
It is very hard for someone to control saying and doing unloving things after infidelity. I have not done anything unloving for months now... I am very proud of that fact... but, last time I did, I just picked up and forged ahead continuing to do loving things... It has been a long time since my wife did unloving things to me, or said or did something out of my boundaries. It also takes your H to want to do the same. Is he? Has he made that commitment to love you until the day he dies? Have you asked him for a commitment? If he is unsure, then that is a CHOICE he makes... This is BLACK an WHITE. For me, I took nothing else but a YES commitment. If NO commitment, I was going to D. It took my W 8 months before she made a 100% commitment. EJ, You both made a commitment last year, I think, but somehow it sounds like you may have have some problems in Execution.
You need courage to seek your own happiness right now. Go Get it!
I also fantasize about...
he is on the fence and won't even say the words I Love You to me
fear is I passed hpv
ejs5, I want to give you some encouragement today! You can survive Infidelity and achieve happiness. Reach down into your soul and tell yourself you are going to make it... one way or another... Go make a good day today! Do it.
One of my favorite images that I created was done when I was thinking about you ej... my feelings exactly too
Peace to all today and just try doing something special for you spouse today... see what happens.
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:51 AM, June 23rd (Wednesday)]
I think do I want to be stuck here in a loveless marriage or do I suck it up for the kids...are these common thoughts at one year out?
ejs5 - I am one year out also and I think about this everyday. My H before the A never said I love you. I was used to this. After the A he said it a couple of times. Pre-A, I always said it, the I Love You's flowed freely. Now I can't say it because I don't feel it.
It's so hard and painful.
Today my H told me that he mentioned to the IC that he was missing t-shirts. I told him that I threw all his t-shirts out that said Vegas on them. And then I asked him if he realized how hard it was for me to see the words "vegas" and the date written on the back of that t-shirt. I told him how difficult it was for me to think of him with OW there for a week. He got defensive and said "no, I don't see it. Those were my t-shirts and I buy these at every convention I go to." I started to cry and said "you will never get it". It's all about him. I said the thing that I wanted to hear was, "I'm sorry, I understand." Instead he told me that he didn't understand, turned around, walked out of the room and said...well now it will be another 2 weeks...(meaning another 2 weeks of no sex).
I cannot stay married to this man. He seriously does not get it and he never will.
I cannot stay married to this man.
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:58 AM, June 23rd (Wednesday)]
Adopt you? I will think about it. You will be pretty hard to explain to my W. I doubt you will look like my very old daughter. You are probably so young and pretty that people will think I am your grandfather.
honest. Thank you for the nice words. Yes fear is a big factor in how my W is acting. This is common with SAB. They feel scared & cornered, so they lash out at inapproprate times. I have to remember that she does not see things the same way I do. Hell, she does not see things the way most people do. You would think I could catch on to this by now. She jumped ship on this deal again last night. I stayed calm and tried to explain that I understood her worries about all this. Of course my logic was met with emotional non-logic. She did settle down and is now behind me on this deal again. For now.
nofun. Sorry that happened. Those shirts needed to go. I would guess that he not only was mad about what you did, but by the fact that you did it behind his back. That would be real ironic considering what he did behind your back. Hang in there. There are better days ahead.
i get the impression that he is in some sort of denial to himself of who he was...and what he did.....no, he doesn't get it, whether or not this will change i cannot say, and unfortunately right now neither can you, which is what makes this whole damn process so damned hard...i think you need to give this ic a bit of time, at the end of that time, if your husband is still not able to "see", then maybe it would be time for you to move on....because if never 'sees' what he's done, he will never "get it", and if he never gets it, you will never be happy and that is just the way it is....we bs's need to know that they get it or we cannot find peace....and yes it all sucks....
and yes it hurts...so it hurts and it sucks...what are you going to do about that...??? are you going to bury the pain, or are you going to feel it so you can heal it....and right now you need to take steps on healing yourself, because your ws is incapable right now, and he may never be capable, i am hoping for you that in time in ic this will change, but this is not something you should count on or depend on...
ejs5: i am so sorry that you are still in so much pain, and unfortunately we can all relate to that...i think tryn has given you some excellent advice...the only thing i could add is that mc every 3 weeks is not enough, and you both should be in ic as well.....mc and ic once a week, each...you have too long of a stretch in between to be of much use....and if your "c" is not a good one, get a new one....
dip: young...me....no more...i will be 50 in november, i dont think of myself as old yet though, but not young either...i am a short person, would that help the cause???? all of my kids are taller then me...actually most kids pass me around the age of 12.. ...and it really amuses me, because its still when they are young enough to get a huge charge in being taller then me....and they constantly compare, it so amuses me....o.k. i got off track yet again...
and i am not a drunk, god help me, i have no excuses...i am who i am...
and you didn't even notice my new word??
tryn: that is one of my favorite pictures that you've done, it was good to see it again..and btw you sound wonderful...you sound very put together, and you sound like you are finding your peace, and with it your happiness...i think you can clearly see it too...so YAY!!
I started to cry and said "you will never get it". It's all about him. I said the thing that I wanted to hear was, "I'm sorry, I understand." Instead he told me that he didn't understand, turned around, walked out of the room and said...well now it will be another 2 weeks...(meaning another 2 weeks of no sex).
This is so similar to the conversation FWW and had just two days ago. I want her to acknowledge and try to understand how I feel. With her it was not T-shirts, but a dress she bought for an event with OM#2. There are pictures of her in this dress with OM#2 at this event posted on a website. I hate that dress. I told her I wanted her to get rid of the dress, trash or sell I do not care. She became defensive. In addition, during affair time she took off her wedding ring and put it onto her right hand. A joke, her wedding ring is on the wrong hand because she married the wrong man. Problem is she cannot remove it now. She bought a replacement ring for her left hand, but it is not the wedding ring. I want her to have the wedding ring cut off, repaired and worn. She was again defensive, she has tried, can't get it done.
The difference for us is that two hours later we were talking again. She told me she did understand why I wanted the things I asked of her and my feelings. She promised to get these things done for me. I had pointed out that touch is my primary love language and that we had not done the most intimate touching in over three weeks, well she has initiated and we are making up for that plus
What you describe, walking away, no sex for two weeks that was FWW and I for most of our marriage. It was not healthy, and it ultimately resulted in her As.
Can you draw up a list of the things you want from your FWS and bring these up at MC to create a plan for implementing? If he cannot or is not willing to start trying to implement you identified needs, then the questions is how much can you tolerate.
For me, it makes sense to R, or try to R for the sake of the children and family, but it does not make sense to just stick it out in a loveless marriage. This is just my thought, there are different approaches and I do not mean for this to criticize anyone’s decision.
as for theose mudnd told him..so yay mrs ats...
Yesterday DS18 was again irresponsible and did not follow through with something FWW asked him to do. This morning WE grounded him from use of a car until we see better behavior from him.
Dip, I appreciate your frustration with your wife’s vacillation and fears over business decisions. We had a couple of opportunities over the years to take some risk and begin our own business. FWW was frightened of the risk, but rather than tell me that she found other reasons to not follow through. Right now, we have another opportunity presented. I have looked into it and I am on the fence about the risk versus return. It is interesting to me, and shows she is changing her thoughts, that FWW is researching this issue on her own in addition to talking with me. She says she does not want to make a decision again based on fear only to regret it later.
Last night I made hotel reservations in the town where DS18 has college orientation next week. As I started looking, FWW became very involved in the process. After we were done, I asked if her being involved was to ensure I did not pick the hotel where she and OM#2 had met on a couple of different occasions when she had gone to “visit friends” in this town. She said it was, and talked about how angry she gets with herself now that reminders of her past behavior keep popping back into her life. We both are a bit nervous about this trip since she and OM#2 stayed together there, and she invited OM#1 once too. OM#1 was too cheap to drive 4 hours up and back and get a hotel to spend a couple of nights with her.
m334455, I will be thinking about you. Your recent posts sound as though you are preparing or ready to begin addressing some very difficult issues with your FWS.
honesttoafulat, you are right about the slow adaptation to negative behavior. Sort of like that story of the frog put into a pot with the heat slowly increased. He never notices that he needs to jump out.