boy i wonder if i did start drinking just how bad my typing would be...
I'm not going to check any threads on SI while I'm working on this, and I'm not going to accept any PM's -- but I did start a journal which will be open to read, if you're feeling voyeuristic.
Honest, you are so very, very right. Baby steps. It's going to be a long process, maybe all summer, maybe longer. I know I can't handle more than 30 minutes at a time. And I can't do it every day.
As for Baby Paddy -- she's as charming and beautiful as ever. I am also beginning to suspect she's disabled. She has a sacral dimple, and now I've noticed she isn't developing proper muscle tone, particularly in her legs. She can't support any weight on them, she doesn't give any resistance when you move them. They're floppy. And she can't hold her head up as well as a baby her age should, and you can't pick her up under her arms, though her arms are stronger than her legs.
Remember the other book I recommended? Everything Happens for a Reason . . .
Dip: The hardest thing about dealing with BPD, from my experience, is that they can act so "normal" a good part of the time, that you forget they have a problem and then WHAMMO, they go into the scared behavior BUT with such illogical logic the you can get sucked into it. Also the "idolizing" vs "demonizing" behavior, the black and white thinking is so hard to deal with too. Even when we understand it, it is so very hard to deal with. Does your WW know of her diagnoses and accepts it? That would be a big plus in her recovery or at least in dealing with her fears.
EJ: It's good to meet you. You are in my thoughts and I will reread your posts to see if there is anything I can say to help.
Miracle: You are not too short!
I actually was surprised when I read that you said that I was an optimist. WH always told me I was never happy, that I was always depressed and looked at the bad side of things. I'm realizing more now, especially after DS 15 said about ADD and my WH, that WH's impulsivity (is that a word???) I was always trying to be the voice of reason. Impulse buying, and yes, Ats and Dip, about business ventures. Sometimes I may have been TOO cautious and WH's impulse and enthusiasm with some business deals did work. (sometimes? lol, more often than not)
Maybe, dip and ats, a lot of women are more cautious about those things. Maybe a lot of us are wired for more security because of the kids. We may be afraid to take a chance. I always said to WH (pre A) that I would live with him in a cardboard box, if it was just me and him, but with kids, I'm more careful. WH said I didn't like to travel, but dragging around 2 small children through touristic spots is not fun!
I still think I'm a pessimist, for some reason. Afraid to enjoy the moment because I'm waiting for something bad to happen to ruin it OR I actually feel guilty if I am having a good time!! How sick is that?
Nofun: I am so very sorry about how Mrnofun is reacting. He still doesn't want to own up to his stuff. His retreat and "punishment" by refusing intimacy is so passive/aggressive it's infuriating and so hard to deal with.
As Tryn says, I think that the WS's need to decide if they want to commit to M. They may not know how to do or say the right things, but if they are really willing in their hearts and open to trying new things, it is a tremendous start.
Nofun, I don't know who said it on this forum, but I thought it was excellent advice: if you are feeling the same way without deviation for months and months (no going back and forth with emotions) then you are starting to really know your answer.
Perhaps, you really need to tell WH that this is really his last chance. You BOTH are going to try your hardest, and if that doesn't work, you'll KNOW in your heart you gave it your all and then some.
Believe me, you have to heal from this no matter what. Divorce is extremely painful even if you want it. It's a very very tough road and you will definitely be travelling down the path alone, more alone than you are now.
Be kind to yourself and believe it or not, be kind to WH. Just the act of being a good person can help purge the angry, mean, and vengeful thoughts we have. Kindness to WH doesn't mean being overly nice, but not being mean, sarcastic, etc. It's a gift you are giving yourself to be the person you know you are inside and not allow WH's actions cause you to change to a cynical, bitter person. Focus on YOU, not him, but that doesn't mean being selfish. KWIM?
With WH, it will be a slow work in progress. All I know that has worked a little for me is I can only change what I do. I told WH that I would silently do something and be resentful that no one was helping. I told him that I was no longer going to do that. He said THAT"S GREAT.
I told him this when I was calm, we weren't angry etc and it has worked and I feel better.
I'm suggesting, that perhaps you guys can pick something and work on that....KWIM? Act like you are working together.
All my prayers and thoughts are with you M3
honest: i love being short, i always have....it enabled me to have boyfriends of all heights...i like a man taller then me, at my height thats pretty easy...
i do not see you as a pessimist at all....the eternal optimist, the person who sees the good in everybody...pessimists cannot do that...i would think by now that you would know that if your husband says it is so then that automatically negates it.. .....i would think that at this point in time you could look back at all the things he said to put you down and realize what he was trying to do...and how much of what he said was either based on keeping you under his control, fighting you for power, or elevating his already huge ego....
m33 - My prayers are with you and Baby Paddy. I was so sad to read that you think she may be disabled. I'll be praying for positive results.
Honest - I too think you are a strong positive woman. You have your head on straight and are very insightful. We will all be ok...we SI'ers are a strong bunch.
I want her to acknowledge and try to understand how I feel
Ats - I want this too but I'm starting to doubt it will ever come to be. I actually make myself anxious over this trying to figure out what I am doing wrong that I can't communicate so that he can understand how I feel. Can someone be that selfish that he can't think of anybody else's feelings but his own? It's all about him! Do I just chaulk this up to "it is what it is" and will never get any better? I'm asking myself if I can live with someone that doesn't "get it."
I have lived with this pre-A but I hurt too much now to sweep the fact that he doesn't care how much I hurt under the carpet. What does this say about the kind of person he is? Do I just settle? These are the things I am asking myself.
Geesh, I hope I made some sense...it seems like a bunch of ramblings...
right now your ws does not get it, can he, yes if he wants it and works for it...he needs to step up, thats why i like the idea of requirements as opposed to wants...i gave my list of requirements to pfm with a very clear timeline of what i expected and when...he chose not to meet that requirement, my head is clear on my decision as is my heart...do i still hurt, yes...and i even had my moments of could i accept the man he is now, forget all that i know he never told me, could i move forward who he is now...and then i find something new that tells me to stay the course....i pray every night for guidance, and i may not like the answers i get, but i do get answers....everytime i may waiver i get a clear signal to stay the course...because the things i need most from him the things i require from him are still not there and may never be there...so i bide my time, i wait for the day i can walk away or rather throw his ass out...that day will come eventually...until then we are a family because that is what i need for now...as a mom, that is my need...i need to put my childrens needs above my own, not forever though, just for now...
i don't know if this helps at all...but it is my rationale...
and btw thanks for the compliments...i do look young, that one i agree with...
What kind of requirements? I'm lost on this.
come clean about everything
a timeline that contains it all
the only one he met was ic...we did do mc, but i backed out, he needed to fix so much of what was broken within him, it was a waste of time, until he was whole again he nothing to give to me in a marriage...and had he at least met the other requirements i would have then taken it to the next level...
and i did get a timeline, several in fact but each of them contained lies...including the last one..
no contact was broken early on
and the rest is still non-existant
and i gave him 6 months to do this...well here we are a year and a half later, and still has not met them...
I did give him my requirements and they needed to be adhered to immediatly. He actually gave me most of what I asked for except he still will not answer some of my questions. They are the hard questions. I still think he lies and therefore I will probably never trust him again.
I think he's doing the IC thing for me, not him though. He is just going through the motions. I stopped the MC because I felt he had too many issues and MC was not helping, IMO.
i told him that if there were questions that he could not answer he needed to just tell me that he cannot answer this at this time...so this would tell me that he will answer it as soon as he can process the question to be able to answer me with total truth and in a way that he could bring himself to tell me...i literally spoon fed him what to say, he still chose not to be honest and to lie...
from what you have posted your husband has not done this...
i totally understand the stopping of mc if he has to much that is broken...i felt the same way...i also understand the pov that if he is there just for you and not himself he won't get the help he truly needs....but this is where a really good ic comes into play...as long as he opens up to the ic and is totally honest with him, progress will be made...and if progress is made his being in ic will turn into him being there for himself and for you....
your husband obviously wants the marriage...i really believe he is "life" stupid...i don't think from the sound of him that he gets it, or was ever taught how to be a real man who loves really loves his wife...i don't know what kind of example he had from his foo...but at the age he is there is alot of unlearning to do, habits to break...and his being in an enviroment that promotes cheating does not help....
but i do believe from what you have told me that the man loves you, he just doesn't know how to make it into a verb yet...will he ever?...i dont' know...but i do know that you do need to give him a little leeway with time to find out for your own peace of mind where having regrets is...
and i also believe you need to find a way to purge that anger and hurt...it won't go away but it will at least stop the festering..
just my 2 cents
nofun. Thanks for the info about miracle. So she is short, pretty, young 40something, and has a flat tummy. Damn, the more I learn about her, I don't know if I should adopt her or ask her out. Whoops! We are both M and SI is not a dating site. I guess adoption is the way to go.
honest. You hit the nail on the head. They act so normal it does make you forget there is a problem. She knows she has a problem but will not or can not deal with it. Last night I pointed out that she always felt this certain way about most things and that she was incorrect in viewing things always like this. I told her that thinking this way made her unhappy and she was not being fair to herself and cheating herself out of a happier life. I also said that she was doing the same to me. She said that she was the way she was, and she could not change how she thought so there was no need to try. She had a very fearful and hurt look in her eyes as she was saying this. It was sad to see. I wish she would go to C, but I can not force her to.
ats. Thanks for telling me the story about your W and the fears she has about the business stuff. It is sad that these people let fear completly rule their lives. I really do appreciate my W's imput in these matters. She often will notice or think of something I missed or did not consider to be a big factor. The problem starts when she gets scared and starts bad talking everything just because of fear. It is hard to deal with.
Hugs to the tribe.
I can't even process what was said. He wasn't being mean....just said he can't give me what I want.....not to share my husband.
I started to say I wanted to see something that shows he loves me, and he started going on about how I always needed him to hold me up emotionally. I depended too much on him that way.
I have to let him go.
I'm just so incredibly sad. I'm not devastated the way I was dday, close, though, just unbelievably heartbroken. I had hope before. All the hope is gone.
This sadness is so different, but it's incredibly deeper, to the depths of my soul. I was still "pretending" in my head that he loved only me and was with her because he had to. That he still had my back. I still had someone to rely on. I know, I know, I'm supposed to rely on me and I do, I alway have ALL my life (I'm an only child with a sober alcoholic father and a BPD mother)
I know I can go on, I will have to.
Dday I was knocked flat on my face and couldn't even sit up. I kept getting knocked down and was told it was my fault. Now, I'm knocked to my knees, but seem to be stuck here. Is it so wrong to want to depend on someone? Someone you loved and thought loved you? To feel fulfilled because you thought and believed you were loved? Am I really crazy?? Did I depend on him too much in that way...emotionally?
I really am.
Please allow this to be the absolute last time you hit a "new" low.
There's nothing wrong with holding out hope that flies in the face of reason. Many of us here are guilty of the same. Miracle said something to me the other day that applies here as well: you gave it your all - now you can know in your heart you were given no choice but to walk away from the marriage and this is something your children will know as well. I hope, when you calm down, you will see that there's no shame in what you did, no weakness, but strength in trying to hold your family together against incredible odds.
What your husband said to you was partially what you wanted to hear - that he loves only you - however, what I hear are the words of a very selfish, manipulative man and some serious cake eating. He is making YOU feel bad from walking away from him because he still loves you, despite the fact that he is CLEARLY making R impossible. I thank God the man was at least honest enough to tell you he would never divorce ow. The reasons he offered were either designed to hurt you more or soften the blow. However, the reasons do not matter. NC is step #1 before anything else & he is unwilling to go NC.
It is time to let go of the hope Honest. Not 180 & hope he wakes up. 180 for you with no looking back. You deserve better.
Again, I'm sorry.
I've been reading your posts & I feel for you. I can actually visualize your H sulking around the house. Are you going to try Miracle's list with him? As our Hs are so similar, I can say that my H does a lot better with specific things he needs to do. When I get annoyed with him, I think about the things he has been doing that are difficult for him and that he's doing them for me. That makes me feel better.
As for me: up & down the roller coaster. Had a great time with the H last weekend on our little getaway - just the 2 of us. But, it also saddened me because I still felt some distance and was disappointed that I didn't have that completely "in love" feeling with him. Just more work to do, I suppose. I'm just not sure his IC/our MC has a road plan. I may need to check in with him soon for a personal appointment & ask what the game plan is.
Last night something occured that just struck me as odd & I decided to ask my H about it because it was really bothering me. He gave an ok enswer to it, but was clearly annoyed that he was questioned. During this conversation he essentially voiced his opinion that I will never be able to get over this - here we had a nice weekend & I got upset while I was there & I'm still getting upset a few days later, etc. He said he knows it's all his fault, but he just didn't think it was going to be possible to move on. I told him that we each have our crosses to bear & while I could understand his reaction to being questioned, he should understand why I needed to question. (And, btw I was very matter of fact with the question & did not interrogate. I listened to his answer & that was that.) I then told him that by deciding to stay together we are both accepting a relationship with limits - it's just not going to be 2 people in love anymore. He just thought that was sad. And, I agree. But, I think it's a pretty fair assessment - at least at the moment as I'm still trying to figure out who he is. (BTW - did I screw up that wolf in sheep's clothing last week? Lol. I think I said sheep in wolves clothing. I hate it when I mix up things like that. )
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:14 AM, June 24th (Thursday)]
i am so so sorry for your pain honest, i know that hurt all too well....and i know that little piece of you that holds on to the shred of hope, i called mine the cinderella wannabe....she was and is my totally favorite character, so much so that when we went to disney 8 years ago, (my first time) i cried when i saw her, i identified with her completely...only child, father marries someone else with children who seem to get it all whilst i got nothing, and i wanted that prince charming, actually i still do ...anyways, we all have dreams and fantasies, it is part of the human existance...we want better, we desire better, we dream about better...we even work out all these scenarios in our heads of what we want and how to get it, we all hear in our heads what we want to hear...there is not a soul who doesn't do this...we all know when we ask a question what we want to hear, and unfortunately what is said and what we hear do not always match, and then there are answers that are given that are exactly what we want to hear, but the actions do not add up to the words....your husband honest knew and knows all the things you "need" to hear, and because of this you heard more then what he said, your perception and your desires heard "hope", and there is nothing wrong with that...its not burying your head in the sand, it wanting what you should have had along...facing what it is, well its painful, it changes everything and life as you know it is over and that is not an easy thing to face much less live.....
we humans more often then not will do most anything for love...as long as it doesn't go against all that we believe in, like murdering someone (although, there are a few who would) we do whatever it takes within what we think is reason....and within reason to one may not necessarily be within reason to another...but we are not here to judge but to support and to understand and give you as many cyber hugs as we can, and sometimes we are lucky enough to give them irl.....
we are here for you honest...always
allgood: your husband is the ever present pessimist, he has to be, it is how he is protecting his heart from you...he is really convinced that you will not forgive him, nor will you be able to get past this, and finally you will throw his ass out...he is trying to prepare himself by building his own walls of protection...and its almost understandable...when we are all not in these sich's, before d-days we all had very different takes on what we would do if something like this ever happened...and then we all had that little bit of "not me"...this would never happen to me, at least not at this level....i am sure all of us at one time or another thought about affairs as a couple of weeks, maybe months...certainly not years and years....much less dual lives at the level these lta ws's are guilty of.....this is stuff for those made for tv movies...and never did you ever picture yourself truly picture yourself in this sich...and whenever these made for tv movies were watched, i am sure you all were like me, full of the damnations, and vows of how you would do things differently then the heroine, we would be much more unforgiving and downright vicious...and this is what our ws's listened too...so now here we are living it.....and he is merely waiting for that person you said you would always be in this sich....especially you allgood, you are a divorce attny, and i am sure you came home with story after story.....mr allgood is waiting for that shoe to drop and doesn't believe who he see's you are yet....the irony in that one..
I then told him that by deciding to stay together we are both accepting a relationship with limits - it's just not going to be 2 people in love anymore. He just thought that was sad. And, I agree.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:55 AM, June 24th (Thursday)]
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:14 AM, June 24th (Thursday)]
I've decided that I need to start living in the present. I do have an awful lot to be thankful for & enough damage has been done - enough time has been wasted - I'm going to try very, very hard to stop dwelling on what could've, should've been.