He said if things didn't change (meaning me and how I can't let my walls down)by labor day, he was throwing in the towel. He said he can't take it anymore that he doesn't think it's going to work. He said "he is what he is" and I'm not going to get what I need from him because he is incapable of giving it.
Lost Heart2, I am so sorry that you H does not see the gardening as an opportunity for family interaction rather than a way to distract himself from the family. I understand his hiding in the cave, we guys are comfortable in there Learning to stay out of the cave and continue to interact with FWW when I am emotionally overwhelmed has been one of the more difficult lessons I have (continue to ?) learned.
((honest)) you were and are good enough. I am so sorry you are not getting what you wanted, and hope that as you move through these next steps that you do find happiness and the life you want.
Allgoodnames, I will be thinking of you over the weekend. Good luck with your H2H talk.
iwantamiracle, I am glad your family counselor was able to get a look at what you deal with and are frustrated with in pfm. You have offered pfm a wonderful opportunity, but it begins to sound as though the price may not be worth the small benefit given his reluctance to embrace what you have offered.
I share your concerns about secrets in the family about affairs. FWW’s adult daughters both know of her A’s, neither of our boys do. At some point in the future, when FWW and I have R’d, I think she and I will need to explain some of the history to the boys. It will not be fair to expect her daughters to hold this secret alone.
Forgivenotforget, Great story about your MC. We have a C who is not shy about calling out either of us, and that really does help.
Things are going well for us. Progress never seems to be gradual improvement, but in steps. This last week feels like we have taken another step, and I feel much more empathy from FWW. More importantly, I am seeing actions that reflect her new feelings and desires.
and just a note...we all have those moments, sometimes they turn into days, and i hope they don't get longer then that...but the point is we are all on this godforasken rollercaoster together...so if you get into a funk again....its o.k....and you will come out of it again, stronger and with more resolve then the time before....and there is nothing like some fresh perspective to put new spins on things...
i have to go right now, crazy day here, but i promise to come back and answer you...
Reading the things about how these WHs are putting ultimatums and blaming their BWs is really pissing me off. I don't care if these dudes are blackbelt, Rambo type tuff guys or whatever. They are not real men. Until they grow a pair, I'm kicking them out of the men's club and revoking their man cards. They are truly being fucktards and candy asses. I would not want to share the proverbial foxhole with any of them. The minute trouble would start they would be gone. On the other hand, I would be glad to share that foxhole with any of you women here. ( insert joke here ) Seriously though. I would not worry about you all running away at the first sign of trouble. You all have more balls than your Hs do.
Forgive is right about nofun's H and the work place coaching. Especially if almost all of the others are or have been having affairs. I have seen things like that before.
LH2. My reference to the gators is a old saying that just means a person is very busy and trying to handle several problems coming at him from all sides. Sorry for any confusion.
honest. I bet you H is NPD. The problem with all this is the fact that even trained pros have a hard time narrowing these things down. NPD, BPD, bi-polar, paranoid personality, and some others all have common traits. My W has most of the traits for BPD and PPD plus some ADD. She is not always a mess though. Just at times.
miracle. I understand about your typos. I think I know how and why it happened. I just love to see how you explain these things. I know that if I make any major screwups like that, I now have a bullseye in the middle of my forehead.
I have to go now. I need to update the men's club list.
Hugs to the tribe.
anways...the year or even more before d-day pfm was monstrous....everytime he opened his mouth was a critisism or another "chore" or "job" to do...and nothing was ever done to his satisfaction...kids tests...if they showed him a 99, he would want to know why it wasn't a 100....during all of this i would tell him he was nuts, i would fight with him, more often then not..because i knew the damage he was doing...but stupid me thought he was just working too hard...didn't realize he was fucking hard toooo....anyways, he got so bad that i i wem , practically beggin him to work everyday jus him , practically beggin him to work everyday just to get him out of the house...i no longer wanted him around...then d-day hit and i was done...i now knew that his intentions were never honorable, i now knew just how much of a monster he was....the last shred of what i was hangin on to was now destroyed....so i will answer your last question first...spending alone time with him: no, hell no....
with all of this horrible behavior, last nite i described like a freight train that didn't have brakes...he lost my kids..they didn't like their dad anymore, they didn't want him around either...after d-day when he was being the asskisser, the one couldn't do enough....my daughter became his champion...now she see exactly who he is and wants nothing to do with him...and when she was his champion she was on my case that i should forgive him...she couldn't understand why i was being so unforgiving, so unmoving and why i was making such a big deal out of what she perceived to be minor issues...my dd knows her mother well...then she found his email and had her own d-day, she felt guilty for her actions and words to me before this her d-day and went to the other extreme...she hates him for what he's done and is angry with herself for the way she talked to me and treated me when she didn't know...i did my best to lift her guilt, and i think there might be a small shred of it left....and last nite pfm blamed me for this one too...that now i am happy that she knows and hates him...total asshole he is...if i wanted her to know i would have just told her...it is his fault that she knows, these were his choices and he needs to learn how to deal with this lovely bed of his....fucktard....so as far as doing anything with him...she is not open to it...his only chance is joining in activites that i am already into with her...
now the boys are another issue...more often then not they don't want to include him in games and stuff...they still see the man he was...
and all 3 of them still see remnants of the monster, and everytime they see a remnant it brings them back to square one...kind of like us with triggers....and he doesn't get it...he thinks he should be allowed to make mistakes as he calls them...
2 weeks ago the therapist gave some ideas on what he could do, one of them was to write a card or letter to dd...i told him he should do one to each of them...not one over another, if one finds out that the other got a letter and he didn't that would create more problems...
he didn't do this til the other nite and he didn't tell me til we were there last nite...he said he didn't think he had to tell me, after all don't i keep telling him i don't want to hear his shit...well i still get the shit and i still didn't get the stuff i need to know about...so i told him that this was part of co-parenting...that this could be something that one of them might come to me with and wouldn't it be smart if i was prepared for it...but what i do i know...(isay that all the time)....so far though, my kids have not said a word, and i have no clue what he wrote to each of them....
the nite before father's day i was playing a game with scrawny boy and asked him if he asked daddy to play, he said no, and he didn't want to, i told scrawny boy that the next day especially was father's day and that daddys feeling would be hurt, are you sure you don't want to ask daddy, he said yes i am sure..so then i put it back in his lap and told him, well then i guess you will have to tell him because you know he is going to ask to play...and sure enough pfm asked...but scrawny boy backed down and said yes....i told this to pfm later on in pvt...pfm got mad, he wants me to talk to him...well fucktard, i already told him my pov befreohand...more then that i cannot do, he wants me to find out why...scrawny boy wouldn't say why when i first questioned him...thats it i am not going to push, i think that would be a mistake and that is his style, not mine...and scrawny boy is in the middle of "those" teens years...sometimes he just being a teenager..cause last nite he started to talk like now scrawny boy has issues....i'm like no, he's just a teenager...
the other issue that was brought up by both him and the counseler was his right and ability to discipline...both think i think he shouldn't and that is so not the case...i told him over and over, when one of the kids talks to him with sarcasm he needs to say something but it needs to be simple straight to the point and then DROPPED...something he doesn't do...they are kids, pick and choose your battles, he choose them all...so the counseler got to see this too...and finally just said it so well,....he needs to let the chores go and prioritize his kids, spending quality time with them...what does pfm do....he looks at her and asks...well how are these chores going to get done...do i have to do them all myself...all i could do is shake my head...he's not getting it...AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH ...i could go on and on and on....isnt that sad..
enough, i am tired just writing some of what goes on....and i think at this point you must be too...
sorry you asked yet???
don't have time need to run...
allgood: you can't post it to her there, but you could share it with us...please!!! need as many laughs as i could get
Fun: as soon as my bosses found out about my situation, they really reduced my case load
Me too. Just tell them. They will keep your confidence; I think it's illegal for them not to. I told my boss, she told her boss, they were both blown away, and they've both known my WH longer than I have because he used to work here and this is where I met him. Anyway, they've really "held my hand" so to speak for the last 6 months and I'm where I need to be at work and they're going to keep "holding my hand" as long as I think I need it plus a little more.
Why does it crack me up to see you using the word "HO"?
Baby Paddy -- I spoke to her doc on the phone and they said I'm probably right. They don't need to see her sooner, she has an appointment in 2 weeks anyhow. Apparently this is something that doesn't go away if it exists so it's just a situtation where I take her to PT if she needs it.
We have many games like bicycle we play with the babies; that's how it finally hit me. Her bicycle wasn't really improving and she still can't "stand up" on
my lap, etc. I saw a mom playing with a three month old while I was having coffee yesterday afternoon and I pointed out to my friend all the differences between that baby and Baby Paddy.
But Baby Paddy is very loved. She will be just fine. (ETA and she's also gorgeous and sweet and smart.)
((miracle)) I've got nothing to say to all of that except "jeesh". Good luck with all that, chickadida.
[This message edited by m334455 at 11:15 AM, June 25th (Friday)]
welcome back ats...you were missed....
FWW and I have been errrr... busy.
They are not real men. Until they grow a pair, I'm kicking them out of the men's club and revoking their man cards. They are truly being fucktards and candy asses.
old dipstick, I will second that motion. All in favor? btw od, is that a fox hole or a foxy hole?
husbands family are all fucktards...his brother is making sil's life a living hell....
so iwantamiricle, you are implying pfm's problem may be genetic?
was going to be that the only thing "beneath her" was someone else's husband
hmmm, that would work for FWW too since she says she was usually on top
But Baby Paddy is very loved. She will be just fine. (ETA and she's also gorgeous and sweet and smart.)
DS18 was born with bilateral clubbed feet. He and we have had to accommodate that, but as you said of Baby Paddy, he is sweet and smart. Well, maybe not so sweet lately, but very smart. I did not realize until after dday how much his feet devastated FWW. I was just happy he was intelligent and otherwise healthy. I would take a physical issue over a mental issue any day of the week, but I understand how distressful it is to have something not perfect with your wonderfully perfect child.
hmmm, that would work for FWW too since she says she was usually on top
Do y'all get mind movies? Every time I start to get one, it just short-circuits. Imagining them together is so ridiculous to me. To the point where if I actually walked in on them together, I'd be mad, don't get me wrong, but I really think I might actually say "Don't you realize how ridiculous you look together?"
I must be very strange. sorry. Somehow ATS's "her one top" comment made me envision OW on top of my WH and then my sense of the ridiculous popped in. I know what she looks like naked, I know what he looks like naked, I know they did it, they liked it, they looked forward to it and plotted it and planned it and who on earth knows maybe I'm in false R and they're up to it still -- but it's still just ridiculous. Maybe that's a form of denial? My guess is that it's the best sex ever for my WH and that just blows me away. Maybe he and I are just THAT mis-matched.
ETA -- It IS a form of denial. I've been thinking of that ever since I wrote it and it is. Oh, now I'm very, very sad. Now that Baby Paddy has been born and "crisis mode" is over I have to really deal with this. I can't keep pushing it away. Sigh.
[This message edited by m334455 at 12:12 PM, June 25th (Friday)]
I prefer "skank" personally.
You have the right attitude. WH and I are on the same page about Baby Paddy. No worries there.
Do y'all get mind movies?
My guess is that it's the best sex ever for my WH and that just blows me away.
I had a real problem with mind movies; in fact, it triggered some embarrassing behaviors for a while. After FWW finally gave me the additional details, and I recovered from the acute pain of that disclosure, the movies have pretty much disappeared.
My understanding from FWW was that bits and pieces of sex with her OM when conditions (excitement, secrecy, safe location, no performance failures) were just right resulted in some of the best climaxes she has ever had, but that by and large the sex was average, just OK. I do believe that the shared physical contact and orgasms fuel a significant part of the biochemistry that perpetuates the seemingly unbelievable behaviors of people in affairs.
I never had confidence issues about sex with FWW, but I will admit I find myself wondering how I am doing now. It was a blow to learn that she has not had the emotional connection to sex that I did. We are trying to work on that as a part of our R. A healthy sex life we both enjoy is one of my requirements for R.
I have had every kind of mind movie my pea brain could come up with. They are a bad thing for sure. If they happen during sex it can cause a real problem for a guy. It can "deflate the ego" so to speak. Thats right, not only did she get it from OM, but because she did that, now H can't always give it to her. Crappy deal!
I had a different kind of mind movie the last time we were having dinner in a nice resturant. I started thinking that she did the same with OM several times, and thinking that to outsiders, they probably appeared much the same as we were appearing that night. I guess she figured something was not right as she asked me what I was thinking. I told her I couldn't remember. She of course said how can that be, you were just thinking it. I said, well it is complicated. She recoginized both those lines as things she said to me about her A, and changed the subject.
Allgood. I would guess that everyone will tell you not to mess with OW. My track record and attitude about all this NC stuff pretty much keeps me from instructing anyone about this. I am a face to face kind of guy.
It sounds like you and m3 both have some very nice bosses. That is really nice to hear.
ATS. Thanks for backing me up. Tryn and you are the CEO and President of the men's club, for sure. I'm the old bouncer.
To answer the other question. I should leave this alone. But... I did mean what I said about how I felt that they would be worthy comrades in a bad situation. The fact that they are all a lot nicer looking, and smell better than their Hs, would just be a added bonus. I think I had better stop talking about this subject. I am just digging the foxhole deeper.
miracle. Nobody can type as slow as I do unless they fall asleep while typing. I do not spill very gud either. Eye wish we had a spill cheeker.
Anyway - I subsequently realized that if she's complaining about the hypocrites at her former place of employment - she must've already gotten an earful of remarks about her HO-ness. Plus - I really didn't want to lose my source since the self-absorbed OW posts everything she does all day long... (Painful to read sometimes, especially as to the picture after picture of her wearing practically nothing & having to read everyone's comments about how sexy she is, blah blah blah. And before y'all say I shouldn't look at the photos - the comments to the photos are surprisingly informative -ppl are just having regular conversation about where they've been & what they're doing while commenting on someone's photo.)
Allgood - I absolutely loved your response but I think it's a good idea just posting it here - I doubt you want to stir anything up and reopen a securely locked door. Too bad, it really was perfect.
btw od, is that a fox hole or a foxy hole?
Nobody can type as slow as I do unless they fall asleep while typing. I do not spill very gud either. Eye wish we had a spill cheeker.
And another good one by Dip! You guys are too much. Love your sense of humor!!!
Honest - just letting you know I'm thinking of you and sending lots of hugs.
Wishing you all a great weekend! Hugs to the tribe!
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 3:21 PM, June 25th (Friday)]