He said he sent me flowers because he could tell I needed a pick me up. My feelings are all over the place. I go from wanting to D to wanting to R. God I hate this roller coaster, I'm getting dizzy.
Thank you Tryn
And Thank you Tribe for being here for all of us!
not a one of them set out to intentionally hurt us, we were supposed to never know after all....not a one of them set out with hurting us in mind....
not a one of them gave us a second thought...and there in lies yet another problem to overcome..we were never considered when they did this to us...
the fact is that all of them did it because they could, none of them set out to hurt us, and all of them i don't believe ever thought that things would get to the epic proportions it did, i am betting that each and everyone of them basically lived day to day on the fly of whatever came next...except for sex i don't believe there were too many other expectations put on every affair...there may have been a few, but not many...and then habit...most of them became habit far more then need....the need was evident but the habit greater...
no i don't think we held grudges, or hold them, i think we just cannot get past someone we chose doing this to us the person they chose to love...facing it completely, accepting it completely and finally that ever elusive forgiveness, we all want it, because it signifies healing...achieving it though is a journey, a process and it cannot happen just because it is willed...the will part is only the first step of many...
I feel I’m taking without giving at the moment. A drain instead of a radiator. And this at nearly 4yrs out. Sorry folks.
i think we just cannot get past someone we chose doing this to us the person they chose to love...facing it completely, accepting it completely and finally that ever elusive forgiveness, we all want it, because it signifies healing...achieving it though is a journey, a process and it cannot happen just because it is willed...the will part is only the first step of many...
"I get to see how I've destroyed the person I promised to save.
I get to see how the sparkle that used to be in her eyes is gone and know that I put it out.
I get to watch her try to function on the most basic level and still have a hard time with that.
I get to live with her pain as well as my own and know I caused that pain for both of us.
I get to answer 500 questions if the line in the store was long and I was gone longer than she thought is needed.
I get to answer questions openly and honestly only to be told that the answers or questions don't matter anyway.
I get to realize that the miracle relationship is gone and whatever we salvage if we salvage it at all will never again be the same. And that's because of my own thoughtless behavior.
I get to know that whatever I feel really doesn't matter anyway cause its a lot less important than what she feels.
I get to go face to face with what a piece of shit I have become and know that even if I get back to the person I once was it might not matter anyway.
I get to think about all the above things and realize that if I stopped breathing right now her life would end up being a lot better."
What can I say??? This FWS really hit bottom and his remorse is raw and his sorrow for having betrayed his wife is evident in each line. This is what we want and what we deserve. Until our S's come to this point, we cannot be sure of their feelings for us. We cannot be safe.
...as opposed to they did this period...not to us, it was just something that was done...
To me, holding on to a grudge implies feeling resentment over something that someone did to me, and this is simply not the case in my spouse’s affair. What I can feel is sad for what has occurred in my life, for a painful event that I had little opportunity or knowledge to avoid. I can feel angry that others were given access to the intimate parts of my life without my knowledge. I can feel ashamed or embarrassed that I did not better recognize dysfunction in my most important relationship. I can feel fear that a spouse who is unremorseful or unwilling to do the internal work necessary to ensure there is no repeat this behavior.
In this paragraph iwantamiracle you very well sum up what I think are especially true for a lta.
… all of them did it because they could, none of them set out to hurt us, and all of them i don't believe ever thought that things would get to the epic proportions it did, i am betting that each and everyone of them basically lived day to day on the fly of whatever came next...except for sex i don't believe there were too many other expectations put on every affair...there may have been a few, but not many...and then habit...most of them became habit far more then need....the need was evident but the habit greater...
I would only add that this was conditional love. Conditional on the expectation that ego stroking and affirmation continue. There would be no "difficult" discussions about finances, children, or other life issues. I can see in the phone records when one of the OM would piss off FWW with a criticism about how she was doing something, or pressuring her to do something differently, and she would quit talking to him for a week or so.
UKgirl, I am sorry you are having a bad patch, and I am going over to read your new post. ((UKgirl))
I hope an alligator did not get old dipstick.
Everybody at the Atsenaotie household survived the 4+ hour trip up and back to DS18’s college orientation. As I mentioned, this was the city where we lived for 11 years prior to where we live now. This is also where FWW had 2 ONS and an EA with a coworker, and twice arranged to stay overnight with OM#2 at a hotel while visiting friends and family in this city. The orientation was stressful with looking at what all of this is going to cost, too much information, coordinating schedules, entertaining DS14, driving past the hotels where she stayed with OM, attending a presentation just like the ones FWW and her ONS partner used to give. As difficult as it was, we have re-claimed this city from the taint of her affairs, and our relationship had another opportunity for growth.
We have a lot of history in that city, and I at least have many happy memories from there. I will not re-write FWW’s perception of our M at that time for her, but for me there were good times. Yes, we had fights and sometimes struggled to be a loving couple. We attended MC (2x), and FWW IC that failed us miserably. OTOH, we held parties at our house that our friends and we enjoyed. We took family outings to the beautiful parks, I took kids canoeing, boating, and camping. There were stores where we loved to shop and hang out. My work at my employer was some of the best I will ever do, and I published and presented on that work. There were two houses we remodeled and landscaped. We were both involved in our community. We decorated at holidays and FWW was often in the newspaper stories about the X-mas and Halloween decorations.
After this weekend, she has convinced me that she now feels some anxiety and disconnected if we do not have touching and intimate contact, that she is enjoying initiating hugs, kisses, and other contact. I am surprised and delighted with FWW’s new need and desire for physical contact. I had thought she was just “managing” me, or meeting my needs out of duty.
Yesterday when we all got together at lunch I became overwhelmed with all of the college related and emotional stresses and had a temper tantrum. Essentially, I said to her “you all do whatever you want and I will just see you this afternoon”, and then I stormed out to sulk on campus. FWW was the mature one. She worked through her shock, anger, and then fear to seek me out in a very non-confrontational manner and integrate me back into the plans for the afternoon. The rest of the afternoon, she was attentive and reassuring. In the past, I would have said nothing, swallowed all my anger and anxiety and been surly for the rest of the day. FWW would have become angry that I had an attitude and withdrawn. Acting out (in this case my temper tantrum) when stressed is a step forward for me, but I now need to recognize and process those feelings. This will be easier since FWW is proving to me that there will be a safe environment in which to do this.
I am very lucky to have a spouse who is doing all of the things we talk about as being necessary. Sure, faster would have been better, I still can ruin a week by ruminating about what she did with whom for a four-year period and I am sad that our M was not as fulfilling for her as it was for me, but I think we are doing the right things to move forward.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:21 AM, July 1st (Thursday)]
A grudge might be a persistent feeling of resentment. I moved from resentment to acceptance.
I would say before I attended Retrouvaille, I had huge resentment… anger. My language of love is mostly physical… my wife making love to me was a form of validation. My not ever having sex with any other woman was my way to show my love to my wife. To discover she was having sex with others caused me to have this fixation that I should have enjoyed the sex with other woman… It should have been my rights to have sex with others too…. and since she had enjoyed the sex of other men and I was not, I hated that. I hated her for that! I resented the OM so much for taking what was mine. He took from me, he stole from me… ALL those NO’s I got, because he was getting YES. Those no’s were the sacrifice I made in my marriage that I was fooled into thinking that was the norm. It was sex I would never get back. OM really has no idea how close he came to his own death. It was a big deal for me a couple weeks ago when I saw OM in person and did nothing. I thank God for taking me out of my mental illness… I have survived Infidelity and take pride in that now. I even made a choice not to even say anything to my W about seeing him because I choose not to bring a subject up that reminds her of her failures in life. Point is… I’ve moved from hate to acceptance.
Today, when I think back about my W loving other men, yes I cry and hurt, something new to me in my 49 years of life. But when I fantasies about us baby sitting our future grandkids, large Christmas together, Thanksgiving dinners, vacations with our kids and there future families… happiness overtakes me. Happiness also comes with knowing we keep our wealth together… we keep what we have built together.. our houses, our 401k’s… Ira’s.. Furniture… And today, I am being treated so well. We enjoyed the evening playing together… I also take pride in the way I treat my W. I also take pride in fact we both could have run away… quit like most people do.. but somehow managed to dig deep into our souls, for me to forgive, for her sorrow, and move ahead positively.
How did I get to today? For me, it took Retrouvaille. It took coming to SI to read, to give input, to get help... I did not know how to communicate to my wife in a safe, loving way. The fear I had to say things. She had not recommitted until that weekend. It helped us by being with real people, not knowing there situations in anyway, but we all came together as one wanting the same things, a happy marriage relationships. These great volunteers have taken what is known throughout history and life as fact to make for the best possible marriage and put it into a presentation, with exercises, only you and your spouse do. I try and share what I have learned, but it is not easy to post… It is based on communicating by sharing feelings… Resolving conflict … and most important is loving each other.. those desirables…
Today, the way we treat each other by following those desirables that I posted… If my W decides to be selfish again, then she is self destructive beyond solvability. Who knows what may come my way in this life again, but I can only control my own behavior. And yes, I now have the strength to divorce and find a single sweet lady like those here.. Yes, just a lady just like M3 (I could be a coach again with all those kids!), Honest (Pure sweetness), Allgood (hot skinny girl with income power), Iwant (woman of super strength, angel and open honest to perfection).. forgivenotforget (not a chance because your R’d), UKgirl (worldly interesting and food that will make my way into my heart!) nofun (I’d bet really she’d be the most fun), njgal480 (hottie is my bet.. every NJ gal is..), Lost Heart2 ( a big heart I’d love to have).. did I forget anybody here? Yep… I am not afraid any more… I think I’m getting my lion back… lol…
AST.. you are a good man.. you will get that lion back... I wish I lived close to you.. It would be fun to boat with ya...
Dip.. hope all is well
I hope everyone has a great 4th… Peace out..
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:47 AM, July 1st (Thursday)]
FNF-- I love the word obscene. I keep thinking how sick a person must be to want their AP to be friends with their spouse and so close to their family. It wasn't a double betrayal in the sense that one of my friends became an OP but that my WH engineered it so that his AP and I became friends.
I mean -- she was my "mom mentor!" you know, when you have your first kid and you go to other women with children just alittle older than yours for advice? Aagh.
This AM I brought up Mel Gibson and his now ex-AP/girlfriend/OC Mom and do you know what my WH said? "Poor Mel Gibson"
At first I thought this behavior was out of character for my WH, but the truth is it's perfectly in character. He's a philanderer, pure and simple. He's not sorry. He never apologizes, even if I trigger. He may express concern for my feelings, but it's pretty darn obvious that he's not sorry at all.
It's a darn shame. He does want to be married -- he's a cake eater. I'm his backup plan/safety net.
The sad thing is, I don't think I saw it for so long, because he is a different person with me. And he really is really shy with me. I think something about me brings out his best version of himself, the person he WANTS to be.
The way I experience him as a person and the facts I know to be true about him are so at odds with one another and I am continually experiencing such cognative dissonance, it's just carzy-making.
So that's where I am today.
Very nice photo.
m3: a quick read over your post and this stuck out:
He may express concern for my feelings, but it's pretty darn obvious that he's not sorry at all.
do you think it might be more along the lines of someone who just doesn't want to make more of it, so that he doesn't have to face it all, deal with it and the worst see, really "see" the pain he caused with his actions in your life....
i think sometimes these ws's just don't want to face themselves....its not so much about not being sorry, or not giving as much support as we feel we need, i think its more along the lines of not wanted to look in that proverbial mirror....to live with the knowledge that they caused the person they supposedly love most in this world such pain, misery and destruction....knowing that you destroyed another's soul....even though our souls are very much intact, they are in pain...our egos are destroyed...but thats another post...the point is that he just may not want to acknowledge all of who he was.....
just a thought
ukgirl: i responded to you in recon....and i wish i could give you these irl, over a cup of tea
and honest i think you need to come out and play a bit, do some posting....do not retreat to far within....its one thing if going within is healing, its quite another if it a full fledged retreat my friend....come share...come vent...even post just a few words or hugs...you must keep touch, keep coming up for air....breathe it in....take it in and know you are loved and cared for....you are a precious soul who deserves so much better, and you will achieve whatever you desire, but it starts with a little bit of will.....and yes we will still fall, and we get back up stronger then we were before...
o.k. gotta go do more getting ready for the big shindig on sun....
UK... It's not nice to let that man look down your shirt! You look fantastic! I hope you come out of your Funk...
I'm glad I'm others not afraid to post a pic...
Me running away all that pain
[This message edited by trynhard at 2:20 PM, July 1st (Thursday)]
do you think it might be more along the lines of someone who just doesn't want to make more of it, so that he doesn't have to face it all, deal with it and the worst see, really "see" the pain he caused with his actions in your life....
Beats the heck out of me. Good question. I don't think he wants to ever deal with anything -- which explains the A (s?), drinking, over-eating, drug use, retreating into the TV etc. etc. Anything to kill the pain, KWIM?
As for what he's feeling, Plain of Lethal Flatness ... so I don't care too much.
I posted in General that I've decided to switch IC's. I'm hoping it will give me some clarity -- but I also think I've reached a life stage where this is a better route for me.
Yep... every cheater wants it put in the past... it is just so ugly.
Do you think Retrouvaille is useful if you D too? I would think it would at least get everyone on a more productive page for parenting, etc.
It's not really my kind of thing or H's kind of thing -- but I DO HEAR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN REALLY TALKING IT UP. sorry. didn't mean to shout.
honest: check in...
UKgirl: I responded to your post in recon. I loved the pic of you in Fun and Games. It truly shows your wonderful sense of humor that you have shared with us here.
Fnf: thank you for sharing that post by that WH. We all would love to hear all of that. Sometimes when I come here and see what some WS's say, it hurts so much that mine still blamshifts, acts like it's all my fault, "he only put up with me all these years because he loves me"..... You are so right, OBSCENE is the word!!
And when the WS seems to vascillate so much and confuses you with TT and inconsistent behavior it's so hard to know what to do. It has a lot to do with a post that Miracle wrote about wanting to hear WS say certain things that we interpret things the way we want to, or even if they say the things we want, it may not be backed up by actions and WE WANT TO BELIEVE IT SO BADLY that we go against our gut and even logic.
That's why coming here and getting reality checks and 2x4's is so great.
I also, LOVE the serenity prayer and often say it.
Ats: I am so extremely happy to hear that you and your WW are working together toward healing and building a new relationship. Thank you for sharing the steps that you guys are going through. It is a process and a lot of hard work, but it seems to be paying off.
My not having sex with any other woman was my way to show my love to my wife.
This is what hurts the most for so many BS's. I felt that if WH really did love me, he wouldn't make love to another woman.
Thank you so much for the wonderful compliments you gave to the LTA ladies. We can always use a boost.
And you look great in your pic! As does Ats and Mrs. Ats and I love UKgirls photo.
When I look at those pics in Fun and Games and see how beautiful and handsome the WS's are and how absolutely gorgeous the children are, I wonder what the hell is wrong with these WS's!!!!! Don't they see what gifts they have!!!!! Are they truly blind???
M3: I think it will be a good idea to change IC's if the one you have isn't working out. I'm sorry to hear your post and how down you are feeling. I understand the crazy making. WH's family overseas keep telling me that WH is better when he is with me. He is happier, acts nicer to people, etc. It's like I'm his conscious or something, he doesn't know how to be empathetic or kind to others or something. He always seemed to be on his best behavior with me (I guess except the past 2-3 years when OC #3 was born)
Please keep posting and venting. We are here to help.
ETA: WH has not really called all week. Calls yesterday to tell me he'll be on TV again. He calls today to ask if I saw him (had to watch it on the internet) I only put it on for DS's. When he called and asked how he did (NPD needs his supply)....well, I NEVER put anyone down, I always find kind things to say and am honest. I believe in "Thumper" (of Bambi), "If you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all"
So, my answer to how did I do? "You spoke well, but are you feeling ok?" He says that others said he looked tired and he was getting over the flu. So I added, "Well, you looked jaundiced, you know yellow? You better have a blood test to see if everything is ok. I hope you feel better. Take care, I gotta run."
Well, he did look yellow, but it was probably the color on the computer!!! But I know I put a seed in his brain. I'm sorry, but I was being a little devilish.
What's driving me crazy now, is that now I feel like I'm the OW!!! I'm trying not to think about WH for a while, to give myself a break.
I am trying to keep my neighbor's mantra in my head, "I act like I date myself. I'm not waiting for someone to buy me flowers, if I see flowers in the supermarket, I'll buy them for myself!" She keeps a healthy balance of taking care of her family, working, the house, and tries to be good to herself in little doses like that.
Miracle: Good luck with your party.
Allgood: I hope you are doing well.
IF I am to blame, then perhaps I have some CONTROL over the uncontrollable. KWIM? If I convince myself it's my fault, then perhaps I can fix it....
This has been me, and I understand completely what you are saying. I wanted so much for FWW's A's to be my fault, so that then I could fix the problem and know it was fixed. I had no trust in FWW to do what was necessary.
But she has. She did these things, I could not make her do these things. They were done on her own schedule. All I could do was honestly show and tell her how I felt, and tell her what I needed to feel safe, to feel loved, to get past our past, and to hope for the future.
IF I am to blame, then perhaps I have some CONTROL over the uncontrollable. KWIM?
This makes perfect sense. I think this way too. I think this approach will only get you so far tho, so be careful.
I am also going to super- gently suggest you stop talking to WH. I am assuming that you still need you "fix" on some level - and I totally understand that - but I think you are just delaying your healing. I'm glad to see that you are limiting your content with him; maybe you could now start reducing the frequency. Again - the point is not to hurt him (tho that would be a nice side effect), but to help you continue to detach from him so you can move on.
As for me - I could be better. I'm hatin this week. I see my H's efforts, but don't really care. I'm not reaching out to talk to him on the phone, I'm delaying returning his calls, I've been cold when we are together. So, I'm sulking. I'm taking some time off next week & we are taking a mini-get-away with the kids, so I'm sure I'll turn it around before then.
O!!!! THE A-HA moment!!!!
I literally just now figured out why I've been sulking. It's because my H is doing OT again this weekend. It's a trigger for me & lately I've been thinking that the reality is that this is going to be happening more & more frequently, with him ultimately changing his hours to working overnight. This has always been the plan, and I've dreaded it, but now post D-Day, I see things differently. I already spend so much time alone & now it's going to just get worse. I think that's what's been fueling a lot of my negative self-talk about what's the point of R & maybe I would be happier with someone else.
Great! I have to say I hate it when I'm in an extended funk & I can't put my finger on why - it just makes me think I'm crazy.
And Fun: I'm glad you got flowers! I'm actually a little jealous. How are you guys doing?
Miracle - thanks for always being there. (Didn't want to ignore you. )
Tryn: you crack me up.
And, it was nice to see some people's pics. I wish I could post some so you guys could put a face with the name, but I need the anonymity.