The discussion is what it is, and he may have, as suggested, just been joining in.
IMO, his reaction to your disapproval is the real concern. Lying is never good, but especially in the aftermath of infidelity and TT. Trust between a BS and WS is so fragile. Maybe this changes after full R, but for now I bristle even with “untruths” that are joking from FWW. She understands this and is careful not to do this, or to apologize when she realizes she has.
I understand you being upset allgood. Lying, lack of remorse, unwilling to process disagreements, none of these bode well for a relationship, let alone one trying to R. The discussion should not have been about exactly what you heard and if you were right or wrong, that doesn’t matter. The discussion needed to be about how you feel, and helping you get back to feeling loving. Hey, in my last sentence I think I sounded like Tryn, he must be rubbing off on me.
i skimmed, too tired to go into all of what is there...
energizer bunny allgood...i wish...we do have most of this down to a science though, we do it every year...some years though have more people then others...about 40 of the people are teens...i may need a very stiff mudslide at the end...
we have one family sleeping over, and then we are leaving about 10 ish for the airport...busy busy busy...
allgood: your husband sounds like he is in complete woe is me and the defensive one...niether of which is productive...i am sorry allgood, he does seem to be slow on the uptake...but he is still on the uptake path, try to remember that when it seems as though he stuck his head up his ass...
ats: the sex stuff, you do know that this is not a good tree to climb right...i gots some question for ya, although i may not be back to here to hear the answers for a bit...i will backtrack later on...hopefully i remember....
are you and your wife each other's first, (for sex)
or either one of you first for the other...
if not, if you both had other partners especially your wife prior to each other...how did you feel about her previous sexual relations....were you o.k. with it?...
for me...its not so much about who was better in bed, or did things better then me...it was more along the lines of she did "it" for him...and that he loved her better...actively loved her better...sex is just sex...hell if i wasn't any good to him sexually he never would have married me...but obviously something was just better with her...and i would say that that was that she was "it"...which to me is huge...i have also had other partners...some better then others...but for me pfm was the one who was "it" for me...of course that is changed now...the person who i believed was "it" doesn't exist, and he never did...because the "it" factor is the whole package...and pfm most certainly doesn't have the entire package... ...but for you ats..your wife clearly thinks "YOU" are the "it"...which is so much more then sex...and the sex when you feel and believe you are with the one is "it" for you is different, better much more satisfying...and now that your wife is getting to who she is, she is realizing that not only are you "it" but that you fulfill her...at least this is my impression...she still has work to do, she is a work in progress, but she is making strides....and you really have to find a way to let go of your feelings of inadequacies about this issue...
major hugs going to all....and to those of you having an especially hard time...the hugs come with a little extra squeeze
have a peaceful week...i probably won't be on again til next week...stay safe....
Nofun: thank you for your kind words. It's funny, when I posted about that I always take the blame, it was more of a statement that it's an unhealthy thing to ALWAYS tend to do. I cannot fix everything, I think it has more to do with wanting to have some control over an uncontrollable situation. Somehow to feel like life is "normal", but we can't have control over anything really, except our responses to the situations. That is the way I should try to focus on, not trying to "fix" it, per se.
Ats: thank you for your thoughts. I can use all the prayers I can get! I am so glad that you and your WW are progressing. Your posts really show the progress, work, and the painful and rewarding process of working on R. It also sounds like the two of you as individuals are discovering more and more things about yourselves personally, about each other, and as a couple.
Allgood: I'm so sorry that you heard that!! As some have pointed out, your WH is in a working situation where a lot of A's are going on. It's also a "guys' club" where they all put on the tough guy act, or try to act like they belong in the "brotherhood". It's like a secret soceity, too.
I believe, that your WH was acting like "one of the guys" with his comment. BUT, and this is a big BUT, when you told WH what you heard and you were upset, his reaction to you is what is important. You triggered badly and was hurting. He acted like a little boy and just became defensive and was worrying about the "Fraternity" more than you. That's why you are upset.
He should have tried to calm you. Explain why he talked like he did and try to be understanding that you are upset PERIOD. It doesn't matter WHY, or whether or not you "should" be upset (what my WH always tells, me "I shouldn't be upset about xyz). He didn't validate your feelings.
This is the issue you should discuss with him. It is NOT the details of what he was talking about, but how he reacted and treated you.
M3: You and Baby Paddy are in my thoughts and prayers. Please keep us updated as to how she is doing.
Although I'm not at the point you are past dday, I can relate to a certain degree. WH cheated on me when we were dating, and had some excuse for it and my IC at the time said it was probably true, but it was more or less swept under the rug. I triggered for years and years and never fully trusted him. Many times on the roller coaster. The irony of it all is that when I finally decided to trust him again, dday happened.
I feel that it is probably normal to feel as you do.
There are so many problems with a LTA. Many of us have put a big investment of our time, love, and lives into our marriages. We have been with our spouses for more than half our lives. More than we were with our parents. We have invested soooo much. If there are children involved, it makes it worse.
Making a decision to stay is not just because of love. We are older now, and are more practical (and hopefully wiser) If each of us were to get remarried today to someone different, we would see the red flags waving and definitely pay attention. We would not knowingly marry, for example an alcoholic or drug addict, whereas much younger people might still consider doing it since they are "in love".
I feel that maybe a lot of us, seeing this side of our spouses and the pain they caused us are staying not just for love, but because of a thousand other factors.
If we decided to stay, by being practical, I think that we still have many moments that we ask ourselves, "Is this worth it?" Is it worth giving up our heart and soul again to someone who betrayed us, and may even do it again?
Maybe we decided to R because we love our spouse so much. I know I still do even after all he has done. We don't want to give up the spouse or our lives. We want to give our children a stable home.
But we still ask, "Is it worth it?"
I have seen testimonials from many people on SI that it is worth it.
We are often willing to do the work, some WS's are working too, but it is a long shot, that is a sad fact.
We should keep working at it as much as we can, so when it isn't working we can walk away knowing to the depths of our soul that we gave it our best shot. On the other hand, we can get the best reward in life, an R with a person who has also worked on themselves.
Something I have learned about myself throughout this process and reading on SI, was that I was more than willing to give R a shot. If WH was working as hard as I was, maybe we could have made it, but more importantly, I think my self esteem would have been better. Even if we couldn't work it out, I would have felt that WH gave me enough respect and validation at least to TRY.
But one partner doing all or most of the work is not going to lead to R and a new relationship. It is just doing some patchwork on the old relationship, the one that was the festering ground for the A in the first place.
Since WH will not try, I know in my heart that if I didn't have kids and I was younger, I would leave in a blink of an eye. I am worth more than the way he treated me! No human being should have been treated that way, especially by one who professed that they loved you!
I just started rambling!! I can go on and on.
I hope everyone will have a wonderful 4th of July.
I know I can't ask her to give me details about sex with OM. The rational me knows it is a non-issue. Still, she enjoyed herself with them in ways she has not with me for years, decades.
We are not each others firsts. She was married once before me, had 2 girls from him, and was active since high school. I too was experienced, though not so much as her. Her previous experiences never bothered me.
She says when we met and married I was her prize, she wanted me. She says she wants me again. I know she is doing everything she can, she is doing the hard work. But it hurts so bad that she found affirmation and satisfaction with OM.
We talked tonight. She is trying to learn to have a deeper connection with sex. She is reading tantra and books on intimacy. She says that she is enjoying our physical contact, that now it is important to her.
I know the dynamics are different in the A versus the M, it still is emasculating. I don't care what she did with who before we were dating. It hurts that other men met my wife's needs emotionally and physically. But I can get past this. It is not the future, it is the past.
It is also difficult for me to understand how she was with OM#2 for 2.5 years with no feelings of love. Six months of flirting, then daily texts and calls, weekly meetings for lunch or work, and once it began, meeting for sex about once a month. She did it because it was expected, he watched his watch and never pushed for more meeitngs, most were just an hour or two, no afternoons together. What the hell was the meaning of it all?
Oh, yeah... I forgot... the main thing he says about the affair years...is that he was insane... it was insanity.. he can't understand it himself...so, how could I understand it?
[This message edited by njgal480 at 5:42 PM, July 4th (Sunday)]
Miracle: God Bless. That's all I can say. And, enjoy your mudslides & vacation.
Mini-update for me: after speaking with him again, it became clear that he seriously didn't know what I had heard on the vm (too long to explain how I arrived at this conclusion - so just trust me that it's so & not just my wishful thinking. Lol). So, the part about his lying was off-target, but you are right - it should've been about why I'm upset. I said this to his IC last time we went - that he has never validated my feelings in general. If he didn't agree with my perception of things, he couldn't acknowledge that I was nonetheless upset by something. My H didn't understand why I was upset because I knew about this situation before. I told him it was different now & it was hard to hear him talk about it like that. (BTW - as far as the group atmosphere - my H wasn't saying the things he said because he wanted to look like he fit in. This is really how he thinks/acts. He really is one of the guys. I told him I didn't think this was a good atmosphere for him to be in. He basically said that he doesn't care what other people do - (FANTASTIC) - he knows it's wrong, but what is he going to do stage an intervention?
And, that what other people think or do has nothing to do with him.
Basically fought (his view) or discussed the issues (my view) for an hour on the phone, with no real resolution. Still my gut that he doesn't get it.
He worked OT again yesterday & had a few hours between shifts again which is a major trigger for me. He called shortly after the 1st shift; however, to be honest, I wanted to call again just to check on him (though I was planning on being less obvious about that motivation.) Anyway, he doesn't answer the phone for any of the 10x I called inside a 1/2 hour. (yes - I was getting a little worked up...). So, he finally calls back & is all angry like "why the Hell did you call me 10x?" I tried to explain the whole trigger issue & he knows this is the case when he's doing OT and that it upsets me when I can't get through to him under those circumstances. His response is basically that I'm always upset & it's never going to get better. I agreed that I was also worried about that. I later texted him something to help us think more positively about it, we both said "I love you", etc.
But, I'm still pissed because I see that the changes that have pleased me are just surface changes. To his core, the same beliefs are there. Frightening. And, so if I call him out on it, I get reamed for not getting over it and if I ignore it, I self-destruct.
I do actually believe that the A is over (which is BIG for me) and that he loves me, but I don't think he can make the changes that would give me the security to put this behind me.
Enough for me.
I hope everone has fun with friends & family today.
I feel like I "was" a doormat. But not now. I have so many ups and downs. I find that when I am in the down turn, if H will talk to me about the A, it brings me out of the funk.
I think with LTA there are so many unanswered questions that will never be answered. H says he never loved her, never considered actually being with her. He said the sex wasn't even that good. So what was it? I even asked what did she have that I didn't? She wasn't even good looking.
I am still on the fence too. I have not told him "I love him" since Dday. He asked me yesterday if I "like" him. I told him for everyday I am still here, yes, "I like him". I told him the day he comes home and finds me gone, he will know when "I don't like him anymore and that I just couldn't take it". I'm afraid that is what it is going to come down to.
12 years is a very long time to have an A. It's so hurtful as everyone here knows.
I have no answers only that I have the very same feelings, questions and thoughts as you, so hopefully I'm not crazy either.
njgal…Do any of you do this also? Yes
Am I crazy? Why am I still so ambivalent? Why can't I make a decision ?
NO you are not crazy… Let’s talk from a more technical perspective. WE have experience a brain trauma. You have been injured. Society has set you up for this to happen. For 1000’s of years, people have evolved to be monogamous. I think the reason is because that is proven to be most healthy so humans live on. Cheating causes greed, diseases… You cannot ever discount the fact that God also wants it this way. So much is unknown about the brain but I know many chemicals exploded, released, still being released.. These chemicals force you to protect yourself from more hurt. Let me give you an analogy. You might have once touched a hot stove burner to see if it is hot. You got burned. Now, your brain will not allow you to touch it again. That protection memory is stored in the Hippocampus. Today, to protect yourself, you place your hand just over the top without coming in contact. NJgal.. I think you have made a decision of sorts.. you have decided to stay married. YOU MADE THAT CHOICE to stay and not divorce during the past three years. It likely was a choice out of fear to start.. me too btw… And even today, you are not at the attorney’s office, you are not separated; you are not making plans to divorce. You have brain thoughts. I think it is natural. Your Brain must have have these thoughts to desensitize... I have the same exact thoughts. My IC says that it take a long time. He told me that in 5 years, I will look back in time as this being a bad point in our M. Your brain will heal with “good time”. Good time is your H doing all the desirables that I post…
I made something once on that… lol http://www.flickr.com/photos/44718929@N07/4162148699/
I think we must all look at ourselves and take great pride. We have taken a path that is the most difficult. Our brains are telling us to stay away, but we have made the decision to give someone a second change to change a start being a good person. It comes at great risk. The risk is that so many people make the mistake and got caught in lust… another fact of mother nature... (I did something on that too lol.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/44718929@N07/4171889856/ ) We made the choice to fight the power mother nature. Mother Nature tells us to find a new partner… We don’t. We must now be wise to know when we are abused again. That comes with good solid boundaries we are never afraid to warn our spouses, defend... Some here know.. Honest… Iwant… both have great courage and strength to know it is time to start planning to find a new partner…
Opps.. sorry for my preaching today.. Let's go shoot some fireworks and have fun.. lol
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:24 AM, July 4th (Sunday)]
ETA: She has been upset all day becasue last night I suggested that just because she feels horrible about her A does not mean it will not happen again. All day she told me everything was fine, then she says she thought I would have more respect for her by now, trust her.
Gosh, why wouldn't I trust her. Just becasue she had 4 OM and lied all day today about how she felt?
Now her biggest concern is I have been drinking and got my pills out.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 12:37 AM, July 5th (Monday)]
In many ways he is now and ideal husband.
But he did not come completely clean and he did not go NC – saying that it would fizzle out once she “got the message” he wasn’t leaving me. And then he lied for two years. Although he did all the begging and crying and asks me to believe how much he loves me and will never hurt me again. A few weeks after d-day he said “I will never lie to you again”. He lied!!
If I had not been a SAHW&M…… there’s a good chance I wouldn’t be here now. But I’m damned if I’m going to add poverty to my current state. He has always insisted the affair was nothing to do with me and it was all about him. I can reason that too, but it doesn’t stop the feeling of being rendered insignificant or second choice.
Ats: Trust takes a long, long time to re-establish. Everything is fine with her. She has dealt with it and has had her epiphany – her life has to change if you are to stay together. Like a Christian convert. “Look! The new me!” You are still new to this game, so it’s inevitable you are on the side of caution and cynicism. While you were in the dark, you trusted her when she wasn’t to be trusted. Now you know, you don’t trust her when she is at her most trustworthy! Hang in there. Unless there is more to know, the peaks and dips of the coaster will even off. I will not comment on the alcohol, although I did get through quite a lot at one time.
Ats: I agree with UKGirl about your wife's attitude. It's so much easier for them to move on, isn't it? My H is the same way - you can see from my recent posts that he continues to selfishly think about himself when I get upset or my lack of trust in him is apparent. His reaction is to be annoyed & to make grand conclusions that I'll "never get over it", etc. This also seems to be the case with your wife - so easilty frustrated with our lack of progess, frustrated with the inconvenience our healing is causing them. This is because they continue to be selfish people. I don't even believe that is something that can be changed about their personalities it's so ingrained. I'm still trying to figure how to manage that.
We were out all day & night last night as well & while I enjoyed the event more than I expected, the reality is, my H got to socialize, unencumbered by the demands of our 20 mo old daughter (and she has a lot of demands...) hour after hour after hour, while I was once again playing the role of nanny. I cannot tell you how many times I've pointed this out to him. Anyway, I did see him at the very END OF THE NIGHT offer to take my daughter for a walk, so, while it doesn't absolve the previous 8 hours of ignoring me & our daughter, it's progress, because he wouldn't have offered before.
But, what I wanted to say, and I don't know if you go through the same thing, is that it put me in a bad mood because I was annoyed that he wasn't changing his old habits & it only annoyed me further because I'm sure he would say I looked miserable all day and was unapproachable, not realizing the vicious circle of events - that he contributed to my mood.
Idk - they are selfish. They destory our very core & then complain about the repurcusions, like we are malingering because it's so much fun?
But - the alcohol & pills - you already know the drill - and I hope you are remembering not to drive. I don't care what kind of argument you have with your wife, if you can't drive, she should make sure you get home safely.
UKGirl: your situation is so sad. I never realized...
I'm curious: How old are your kids now? ANd, would you say you are mostly happy most of the time?
Yesterday we had a bump. FWW was upset after a conversation the night before. All yesterday she decided to just get through the day and hope it would be better. I could tell there was a problem, and asked directly and indirectly a few times. She said she was fine, just tired, etc. This is typical behavior from her pre-dday.
Last night after watching fireworks, she did not talk the whole way home as I mentioned in my earlier post. Last night became an angry night, but alcohol was not a problem, I just used an Ambien to sleep.
Last night she explained herself, and I told her how I felt about her hiding feelings and lying to me all day. We went to bed holding hands, but I was angry. FWW acknowledged that by trying to not upset me by not telling me how she felt, she upset me, and that she was wrong.
This morning I slept in late, I am avoiding all phone calls. I am depressed. FWW called and texted from work, I told her I do not want to talk now, maybe later. She has made a new IC appointment, and thanks me for giving her another chance.
This is not such a big deal; I do not know why I feel so depressed. I am going to have to fake it till I make it tonight. I can't just mope all day.
Allgood, my situation is just different and yet the same. As they say here, the worst type of infidelity is the one you have personally experienced. But it’s not that bad compared to some. If I had found SI in those early days, I might have taken a different approach and got a backbone. Neither of us knew how to cope with this and we got differing advice from those few who did know. We got into MC about 3wks after d-day with a counsellor known to WH’s bf. She was very good, but perhaps could have been better in giving my H absolutes rather than suggestions. But there again, he lied in front of her and every time I found out something new, it was always “oh, yeh, but…..” For such an intelligent man, he has such an apparently poor memory.
The affair was not just about sex. That would have been easier. It was about treading the path they never took. Briefly; they were at school together for 2yrs, got engaged, then went to diff uni’s. He went to a very prestigious one, she to a red brick. She wanted him to go to hers – he applied and got in. His parents went mad and her parents told her to stop being selfish. He hitched most w/ends to see her. Second yr, she met BH. As it came to grad for BH (yr above), he asked OW to move in with him but she must stop seeing WH. She gave WH the ultimatum – change uni’s or it’s over. WH walked away. Not what she wanted or expected. Drama queen. Following summer, WH met me. Life changed direction. OW m’d BH.
So it was never really over. He buried it all, never told me, no one told me. It was more about a love that never went away. I will never know if he loved me more than her, if their love was too intense to ever survive anyway, if he chose me as the easy option or to be seen “doing the right thing”, if he couldn’t stand the thought of the fall out and consequences of him going off with her. I know they say that if he didn’t want to be with me, he would have gone. But there are many BS who stay for security, so why shouldn’t a WS?
So I have looked at every year we have been together. The six years I think he put her into the furthest recess was from 1982-1988 and I think he was happy. 1988, DS3 was born and at the end of that year H took a job working for the same company where MOW’s father had been FD when she was very young and we moved to the area. MOW’s father had an affair there, a OC was born, they adopted the child and raised her in their family. She has a full sibling buried there who died when he was 2 or 3, H apparently looked up and visited the grave and when H met (by chance) her mother in a store back in his home town, he told her. They exchanged pleasantries, she told him where MOW was living and what she was doing and about her children. Never said a word to me about any of that. That’s when he started to drift. Those might-have-beens.
He was actively looking for her a couple of years before he found her. But it’s more sad for him than me. The boys are now 25, 24, 22 and 15. DS1,2&3 went to New Zealand last Sept. I don’t know if or when any of them are coming home. DS1&2 had a year in Australia in 2007/08. I was happy. Well, content would be a better description. The affair gradually crushed it out of me though. Of course it was all caused by WH’s projection, I realise that now. It just feels our marriage has been an act on his part.
Gosh, that was long! Sorry!
so the bh that sent you the pic was from ow#2?
No, ow#2 is single. The pick was from the BH of OW#1 -- the one he's supposedly been NC with since December 1st.
Karma Bus again; our lone remaning car broke down while we were out of town this weekend. we now have NO cars and one boat -- back in Feb. we had three cars and 2 boats. Ugh.
ATS - that Zac Brown band song is on my phone. You hear it instead of ringing if you call me.
Njgal -- I'm on the east coast.
Yesterday was depression, this morning I went from depressed to passive aggressive to anger in about 20 minutes. We started our morning with a doosey of a yelling match with both of us trying to win rather than trying to process and resolve. sigh...I know how to do better and I want to do better. This one seemingly snuck up on me. We should have/did have things resolved two nights ago. Waking up yesterday and spending the day in a depressive funk is not me.
I was able to process on the ride into work this morning. A couple of text messages between FWW and I and at least we are no longer at each other's throats. We both know from experience that we recover from these and are better off, and must trust that the same will occur with this. She scheduled herself for an IC session tomorrow. I am going to re-read my critical communications book. Our MC talked about not avoiding conflicts, but closing the loop more quickly. I hope that this will be an example of that. Honestly, my 14-year-old deals with emotional communication better than we do.
It angered/frightened me that she was not sharing her feelings with me and hoping things would just be better the next day. This is the type of thinking she had all through our M that led to her being resentful and me being clueless. She says this time was different, but I do not see how.
I know that she is also upset that I do not trust not to have another A. She says she is different, feels awful for what she has done and never would again. When she said this a couple of nights ago I disagreed with her, and pointed out that her feeling awful about what she had done was actually a risk factor for another A, not a protection against.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:06 AM, July 6th (Tuesday)]
ATS - that Zac Brown band song is on my phone. You hear it instead of ringing if you call me.
m334455, I have the same.
allgoodnamesgone, you posted,
I don't even believe that is something that can be changed about their personalities it's so ingrained. I'm still trying to figure how to manage that.
That is what really frightened, disappointed me, FWW was in my view reverting back to old patterns and "magical thinking" that things will just get better. I told her again this morning that my huge issue is that she is just saying and doing what she thinks she is "supposed" to do, and not being honest. She says she could not sustain behaving loving and caring for so long, but I think she sustained the A's for years.
She gets really angry whaen I say she is not being honest or is lying, but what else do you call saying you are fine or just tired, when you are really upset with someone? She says that she was not saying anything to protect me, or so I would not get angry, and then uses my anger over her not saying anything to justify not saying anything.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:11 AM, July 6th (Tuesday)]