She loves me, with some true intimacy. I have always loved her. If we could just forget about the OM our life would be great. Today she cried after realizing how good a day she was having, and that she could have had many more.
honesttoafault, I will let Tryn speak for himself, but I see a purpose for boudaries of how much we are willing to let others hurt us, intentionally or not. What are we willing to accept as a marriage? I understand it is easy to say what to do from the outside, but for you, it appears change from the status quo is inevitable. Will things get better financially, or worse respect-wise before the change? Hugs to you as you figure out what is best for you and your family.
Well, off to bed after a long day.
OBTW, m334455, tried your assignment. Many nice things to know and learn about FWW, including she does ( ) on the first date.
Honest, wordy pm to you.
H and I had a little blowout yestersay ( ) and it helped in some respects. But gosh its diff believing anything that comes out of his mouth w/o wanting to either roll my eyes or smack his head upside down. Anyway, now that we have both been aired, theres a certain lightness back in (and of course some makeup sex always helps! ).
I had forgotten the PA stuff until I found that link again yesterday. I suppose I will need to refer to it for as long as I live (or if things change). I strongly recommend that Tribesters dealing with a PA spouse read up on PA behaviour, the "dysfunctional dance" and OUR role in it (cos we are part of that dance couple too). Dont wait for your S to change their steps, we can only ever control our own.
Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.
In other news:
H went out to a game (located in the same vicinity as OW's home & work) with coworkers. Went to a bar before & after the game. Pretty triggery environment for me given the location & unaccounted for time, but he answered his phone whenever I called & I actually wasn't upset. However, he came home later than expected (he was pretty drunk). I had spoken to him about 10 min before he arrived home and we were talking about spending some time together when he got home. So, he arrives home & proceeds to make something to eat, then watch tv. Doesn't even come in our room to see what I was doing or anything. I was pretty offended because I had something planned in our room & also because I just feel like shouldn't anyone "in love" want to see his partner after being absent for 10 hours. All I could think about was that in happier times, he would come right into our room & wake me up if need be, especially if he was drunk.
So, I get out of bed & ask him what's going on & he tells me that he thought I was asleep because the ligths were out in our room. Ok. But, I had just talked to him 10 min before - he said he thought if I wanted to hang out I would've been in the den.
I see SOME merit to his position (I still dont get why you wouldnt just go see if I was asleep or not - it's not like we live in a mansion) but I was offended & started yelling that I dont' know why I bother to try, etc. etc.
Did I completely overeact or what?
As for your sitch, my God, it feels like you are talking about my xWH!!! Mine a NYC firefighter and yours working for the city too. The same crap with Sunday softball games. They say 20/20 hindsight is very clear. The problem I see is that your WH is doing the same old things he was doing before. It IS a lifestyle of going out to the bar, after the game especially if it's a "Bar league".
Your description of WH coming home, wow deja vu for me!!!
NO, you did NOT overreact!!! BUT, I found you cannot argue with someone who is drinking. They don't hear it and can only get you frustrated. You do need to talk to him about this. This is not necessarilly A related, but something that needs to be changed. I know that many of my friends H's who were on a bar league would stop off for one or two beers and then go home. Some of the wives attended the games, (either brought kids with them or left them with babysitters) and might go with H for one or two and then go home to BBQ (especially Sunday games)
I'm suggesting that instead of telling WH NO more softball, but to moderate what's happening. You could be involved, plan a family outing after, or even a BBQ with some of WH's friends and family so the focus gets off the bar after softball.
I would like to answer other's posts.
luv to all.
I did discuss my feelings about our sex life with my husband.... yesterday...
it was started via a internet article about sex in marriage...
I'll try to copy and paste it here for you guys...
so far....the discussion was a success...
we've had a great Sunday ...slept in...went out for breakfast with friends...
then.. had an afternoon massage session...massage oil and all...followed by a shower together and then....some more romance....
all in all a very nice 'date'.
I did fight off some of my mind movies about him and the MOW doing these things together...but.. I did manage to push those thoughts aside and to stay in the moment and enjoy the day...
he's gonna barbecue something for dinner and then we're off to a concert in the park...
just wanted to give evryone an update...of my roller coaster ride.
Honest...you have to do what you think is best for yourself and for your children...
and sometimes 15 yr olds want things that are not good for them...
I am still not 100% clear on some parts of your story.
Is your husband legally married to the OW in his country? How is that possible? Did he lie about your existance or is bigamy allowed? Are you still legally married to him? did you get married in the USA?
Have you consulted an attorney about this? what did he/she say about his over seas marriage? How does that affect his US marriage? Could you prosecute him for bigamy in the US?
What do his family members think about this arrangement? Do they like you? or are they supportive of the OW? Is this an Arabic country?
sorry for all the questions... but, I'm just trying to get a handle on your situation...
Hugs to all in LTA!!!
NJGirl: I am so happy for you!
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:48 PM, July 18th (Sunday)]
It all sounds so complicated, I know. With all the new info I keep getting, I'm overwhelmed emotionally.
You know, it would be different if WH had divorced me and then did all this. I would have had the 10 years to digest it all slowly as WH had the OC's. But I'm supposed to digest this all so fast???
It's really finally hitting me hard between the eyes.
Thank you all for listening.
NJgal, I'm glad that you had a nice day!
ats i still think you need to slow down a bit on the drinkin though...
allgood: o.k. so now we know that your husband is stupid when drunk...you might have over=reacted just a bit...but a talk is def in order...one that entails letting him know that drinkin to that point is not a good thing, and i hope he wasn't drivin too...i like his reaction though the next morn...shows he is not totally clueless...
i had a really nice day today, had a friend over with her son, talked and laughed and ate..a few times pfm didn't make himself scarce as he should have, (we were trying to have some prvt convo) but some not so gently reminders did the trick.....then a little while after she left pfm decides to talk to manchild about something manchild did or didn't do...it was a stupid oversite by manchild, nothing earth shattering, he just forgot to let pfm know that we needed gas for the mower..not a big deal right....well it was just before the 4th of july that he knew we needed gas, but forgot and when he tried to mow today he ran out...still you think, no biggie...well pfm decides to talk to him about it, manchild catches a small attitude to pfms big attitude...and then there it goes..pfm is yelling and what does he yell...how he runs around like crazy, something along the lines of running around all the time like a chicken without a head...well this makes me see red...i tell him to step outside, send manchild elsewhere...we get outside i let him have it...how dare he, for years and years and years he could run around for ow #1, ow#2, then even ow#3 and ow #4...add to that the running he did for his foo, who did nothing but try to destroy me and destroy us, and running he even did for friends, one friend in particular, this guy was a lawyer who needed a secretary, and pfm filled that bill too for a while, he would be up to the wee hours of the morn typing for this idiot...pfm truly ran himself at all hours for all these people and of course there was his business too which he thought required lots of running around....so naturally this altercation between him and manchild set me off, and i got ugly with him outside...and i ended it telling him to take on more work to make money and stay out of the house more..he tells me a little later that he is not that person anymore.....well whoever he is, he sucks.....
i needed to vent a bit and let one out...so AAARRRGGGHHHH ....asshole, a total asshole i married...
o.k. i feel slightly better letting it out...
Honest: you too. I can't believe you are still standing after what you've been through. The magnitude of your sitch would've sent lesser people to the brink of insanity.
As for my H's drinking - this is a lifelong thing. When he goes out - all bets are off - he drinks way too much & is usually the last person to leave. I have been there done that with him & he admits that once he starts drinking with friends it just doesn't occur to him to quit or what time it is. It is for this reason I insisted last year that he get a ride to any work-related function. This weekend's event, btw, was not just him stopping for a few beers after a softball game. He went to the Yankees game - left at 1:30 (for a 4pm game) and did not return until 11:30. This is typical for him - when we were first married we argued a lot because I always expected him to be home sooner than he was - but I now accept it - not because I like it, but because I am literally out of words. And, as long as he is not driving I guess it's ok. It doesn't happen that often & while I find it annoying that he will spend an entire day away from the family & the next morning recuperating - he is doing it far less frequently now.
Many nice things to know and learn about FWW, including she does ( ) on the first date. (ATS' weekend!)
theres a certain lightness back in (and of course some makeup sex always helps! ). (LH's weekend!)
had an afternoon massage session...massage oil and all...followed by a shower together and then....some more romance.... (NJG's weekend!)
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:26 AM, July 19th (Monday)]
#1 – I am not going to be a relationship involving anything other then myself and my spouse.
What is going to make you happy is to move on and start living life again. Yes, you have started to execute the enforcement of this boundary. Your H is now just going to be just a friend and the father of you Children. Of course you are afraid. I think every one of us here would be. But you need to reach down and just do it… pull the trigger. It really is not that hard unless you make it hard on yourself… I am not sure what you are doing? Why do you select limbo? Stop it.
Ok so start a plan… Sometimes we need a review about what to do… Your goal is to be totally independent from your H. Housing is your first priority… start looking now for a place you can afford without any help from you H… if you are upsidedown then it will be more work to get out of it... Make a budget to make sure you can provide food…. Then make a plan to seek half of all your assets. That means HALF! Until you get half, it is going to be tough. Can you on your own afford your current home today? If no, you need to do something about that… ie.. find a higher paying job or move. Do not make it any more complicated then that. Start looking everyday for a new lower priced home. DO NOT look for reasons you must stay, JUST accomplish the goal… Work a little bit on it everyday. Find that home you can afford. The NW is very expensive… YOU may need to consider the Midwest or South. It is cheap… beautiful… if this is the case, get your resume together. Start applying for a new jobs in different parts of the country. Start over! Good men are looking for sweet nice ladies like you. You are close to advanced degree… search for a grant to finish… it might mean you finish somewhere else in this great country. I also think your H is waiting for you to pull the trigger. Only a person that is a complete idiot would think you could possibly stay in your situation. I’m sure he is ready. You need to be very strategic about how to approach him. Think about how to do this in a friendly, nice, postive, way... to keep him civil... do it in a way he will not want to steal your kids. You can make it civil because he is the father of your children. You just need to not argue and be nice to him during the coming process.. Keep reassuring him it will be OK.. he can have a good life with his new family… Just asked to be fair… that’s all you want. Fairness. And be fair yourself.
Honest, it is different for most of us here. We all enforced this boundary and our spouses have gone NC. Our spouses decided they wanted to try and lead a healthy life with us.
Honest.. start dreaming now… start seeing yourself in a beautiful home that you built without anyone else but yourself. You did this by making a sacrifice today, for tomorrow. It started by stepping out on a branch… that branch bent, but you leaped to the oak…
forgivenotforget... Thank you. You too give me strenght.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:24 AM, July 19th (Monday)]
m334455, I understand you had a date this weekend with a new man. How did it go for you two?
I may not be the best person at this point to comment on someone else's drinking, but it does sound like Mr. Allgood at the least needs to better manage himself when drinking with friends. Just so iwan will know I can pay attention to the advice people offer , other than one bottle of beer each on Saturday night, FWW and I drank iced teas (the non-alcoholic ones) with our supper before watching the sunset.
Wow - something must be in the air.
Next Tuesday will be 20 years from the day FWW and I married. In the early weeks and months after dday I renounced that date as having any further meaning for me. I scratched it out on the paper calendar and I took it out of my electronic calendar. At that time, FWW and I discussed substituting another day, like NYE, the day I proposed. Recently, including this morning, FWW has talked of wanting to do something to mark the 27th. Not necessarily celebrate our wedding anniversary, but dinner out or something to acknowledge the day. The forward looking, wanting to R and be a survivor me believes that it makes sense to acknowledge the day and embrace our shared history.
The petty me gets caught up in wondering how you can have a 20-year anniversary if one partner was involved with OM for 4+ years of that time. Are we celebrating the vows we took? I still remember them: I, Atsenaotie, take you FWW to be my wife. I promise to love you, and be faithful to you, for as long as we both shall live.
Telling her I want to ignore the day, and her wishes, seems unnecessarily cruel, and not in the spirit of consensus, that is part of R. It just seems like with so much effort to look forward, why intentionally turn our gaze backwards? If I am teary now, what am I going to be like next week?
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:19 AM, July 19th (Monday)]
What was in the air at our house has been no kids!
The new man had a date with a very drunk very nasty version of the old me.
But . . . then this morning we had what is easily the most productive fight we've ever had. I'm not saying it was fun, but it was good.
So there you go. We had a half-craptastic weekend, but it was what we needed. I think we got over some important hump.
Baby Paddy was baptized yesterday. She looked like an angel. I'm such a cheesball -- I looked at her and smiled and said "Look how you glow with all that original sin washed off you!"
My husband said something wise this morning. I said that just when I think I've let all this hurt and anger go, some small thing happens that reminds me and brings it all back. And he said; no, it just wells up and you try to find something to attach it to.
He and I, we're going to be good. We're going to be one of those couples that is better after than before.
So, my story is over I think. Somthing finally fit into place I think. Anyway, they say its always darkest before the dawn, and this morning I think was daybreak for us.
So, I'll stick around to help where I can, but I think I've written enough about the Tale of M3.
He asked what I wanted him to do -- and I told him, it might sound dumb but I want him to help me repaint. He was confused but agreed. He doesn't understand why. He didn't ask, but it was obvious he didn't get it.
It's because his OW painted the inside of her house the EXACT same color as mine last summer. Creeps me out. Ergo, creeps me out to walk into my house. I think some nice, fresh walls are in order for our nice, fresh start.
I'm not going to tell him why though unless he asks. It might creep him out and give him the feeling I've been getting!
I do think, however, he will be surprised when he gets home and the paint is there...
But the reality is that it is a special day for you and your W… can you let it go and try to celebrate that day? If you can somehow do it, celebrate it, it will help you both work closer toward R.
Your W will see you have control over you mind, it is an act of forgiving. It will help her feel better about herself. You also need to celebrate the facts and take some pride in the fact you never cheated, you were a good provider, a good father and likely a very good H. atsenaotie, you are the ultimate great family man. It is a victory for you to be married for so long given the abuse you experienced. And you are in a very small bunch of people in this country willing to not give up, willing to give an unhealthy person a chance to be healthy, in a time where society accepts D so easily.
This is so true for anyone like us...
A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person. -
And M3.. I do get it... but, the story is never over.. the saga continues... glad your baby is doing well..
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:56 AM, July 19th (Monday)]
totally understand about the re-painting... it's all about 'new beginnings' for me...
That's the thought that helps me the most whenever I get into the doldrums...
the idea that... this is a new beginning... a new marriage... the old marriage was toxic (much more so than I even realized at the time)...but, that was then...and this is now...
and since my FWH is presenting himself as this completely changed man..maybe thats how I have to look at things.
In many ways our marriage is completely different than it was in the past... and ironically, much better in many ways...
(now..if I could just keep those creepy thoughts out of my head I would be fine! LOL)
my husband moved back home 6 months after d-day ( I had kicked him out initially and filed for D)...
well...the weekend he moved back home was our 30th wedding anniversary....
I decided that I wanted to win back that date... I did not want it to be tarnished forever...
I had the same thoughts... what were we celebrating? was this our 25th anniversary? (subtracting the 5 affair years?) or was it our 30th? or maybe it was our 1st?
we actually went to our minister that morning..and in his office...exchanged new wedding bands and read a little something to each other... all I could muster was a promise to try... to try to work at saving our marriage...
he spoke of his total remorse and his promise to never hurt me again ..ever and his complete comittment to me forever forward...
and that night we went stayed at a Country Inn ...very romantic... some place that we had good memories of from years ago...
no taint of the MOW on the place at all....
so...that has been my way of dealing with anniversaries since... to do something different, to stay busy... to do things together...
did I trigger on these getaways? at times but I fought through it...and
it does get better with each year.
Hope you plan something fun and different for your anniversary!
Oh...I almost forgot... I had asked the minister that question.... what anniversary am I celebrating? and he said... 30 yrs.... and as time goes by ... those 5 yrs of trials and tribulations... as well as the post d-day struggles will all get woven into the tapestry that is your marriage... that every marriage has these ups and downs.... and upheavals and crisis as well.... and the strongest, most vibrant, most authentic marriages in his opinion were the ones that weathered these storms....
the untested marriages tended to be marriages were often both parties were there...and yet not there... dissatisfied, sometimes not truly appreciative of each other etc.
sorry for the long ramblings......
As Ben Franklin said: In wine there is wisdom,
in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria.
In a number of carefully controlled trials, scientists have demonstrated that if we drink 1 liter of water each day, at the end of the year we would have absorbed more than 1 kilo of Escherichia coli, (E. coli) - bacteria found in feces. In other words, we are consuming 1 kilo of poop..
However, we do NOT run that risk when drinking wine & beer (or tequila, rum, whiskey or other liquor) because alcohol has to go through a purification process of boiling, filtering and/or fermenting.
Water = Poop,
Wine = Health
Therefore, it's better to drink wine and talk stupid,
than to drink water and be full of shit.
There is no need to thank me for this valuable information: I'm doing it as a public service!
I'm sorry but his one really made me chuckle.
...just this last year I actually bought him a card - big step since finding cards that don't make me sad is not an easy task.
He doesn't understand why. He didn't ask, but it was obvious he didn't get it.
Thank you all for the anniversary advice. I am making reservations at a restaurant we have wanted to try downtown. This time of year, it will be quiet downtown and we can focus on each other and take a walk after supper. I teared up when I read njgal’s post; I do not know how I am going to make it through the night (I know, no alcohol, thanks iwan ). I just texted FWW to ask if we can get her wedding band repaired by next Tuesday. She had it cut off her right hand recently. It became stuck after placing it there two years ago as a joke (ring on the wrong hand because she married the wrong man).