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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts 5
UnbearablySadd
♀ Member
Member # 18150
Default  Posted: 1:09 AM, October 30th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Any find it helpful to read out loud the Carnes books to their SA spouse?

My SAWH is a poor reader. Carnes is a poor writer. Together it's a deadly combo!

I am an educator, public speaker and experienced editor, as well as published author.

It was simple to edit the sentences to be more clear.

It also helped to leave out some of the "technical" /for therapists only stuff.

We are reading book # 3 since it has more real life examples, and are going to return his first book to the store. Carnes says early in the book that this one is much better than his first. (we agree).

My SAWH is an excellent listener. I read slowly and stopped to ask "comprehension" questions to be sure he was absorbing the concepts.

At the end of the reading, he asked me to summarize for him.

I explained it's not the "what" you do, it's the what you do it FOR that makes one a SA. That a person is not "bad" or "corrupt" necessarily, but that they are selecting behaviors which hurt them - and hurt others, including the children they love - by living the shadow life of the SA.

The next day he sat at the kitchen table, and with my help in creating the physical structure of a family tree, completed it for both sides of his family, then sat there in shock and amazement. It was like he fully saw for the first time what a messed up family system he grew up in.

Example: His mother actually asked me one day "What do you mean by 'the truth.'? There is no such thing as "truth." " Yes, really, and this woman is the person who raised - and horribly damaged my SAWH.

In any case, it seems to be a technique to engage him in the process, and where he said that by doing it together he is able to see I don't despise him and that we are hearing the same things at the same time.

Anyone else with a similar experience?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQd8M5t4Ao&NR=1

it's all about James Hunter, now ;)

And here's the 180 link:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=256092


Posts: 1379 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: This side of R that side of S
too trusting BW
♀ Member
Member # 15459
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, October 30th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Notasaint,

The addiction to the attention and external validation is actually just one of the components to many SA's pattern of addiction.

My SAH has struggled (although technically "sober") with the attention and validation from women especially at work. Many times he has rationalized that it is non-sexual, so therefore ok. Now with further recovery he realizes that the "attention and validation" are simply factors in his sex addiction and it is very dangerous for him to ever try to separate the two as if in some way one is "less bad" than the other.

Hope I am making sense. It just seems to me that there is a distinction being made by the IC that is doing nothing but making some minimizing of behavior that much easier.


Me 39
SA-FWH 44
11yrs M
In R-maybe
3 DC from Marriage #1
1 DS together
at least 4 d-days

Posts: 1300 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Kansas
too trusting BW
♀ Member
Member # 15459
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, October 30th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UnbearablySadd,

I think it great for you that you are educating yourself about SA.

I caution you to see some of the traps that may come about with "helping" too much.
Unintentionally, you are "managing" his process of learning about SA, by editing.

Gaining the information, doing the work (damn HARD work) is his job. Finding and using resources to make this better understood is your SAH's job as well.
One of the guys in my SAH's group (therapy not SAA) was going to be told he needed to leave the group. He hadn't done enough of his "work" in a year, basically.
My SAH was feeling so sorry for him, he has add, dyslexia poor guy, he just needs help blah blah....
I reminded him that this guy knew he had these issues, knows what kind of help or modifications and how to get them and use them. It was NOT the therapist's or the programs responsibility to help him with that part. Especially, without him addressing it with them. It is very important that the SA do the work, the reading, more work and more reading, on their own. They do NOT get all of what they are reading and incorporate it into their core when they first read it. It takes years to understand certain things. There is a slow process to this for a reason.

Second big thing that I see is how you may be setting yourself up for exactly what I still deal with from my SAH daily. I am responsible for how my SAH feels. My SAH has this amazing ability to blame me for everything. Hell, last year when he contacted another woman, he was angry and resentful for 3 months because I wasn't "supportive" of his work in recovery, while I dealt with the anger and betrayal myself. AMazing

By doing so much to "help" you are setting yourself up to be the responsible party if there is anything he doesn't "get." Believe me, there will be some things that you think are perfectly clear, and that he understands, and then later find out he is clueless. If you are NOT involved in that process, then you are not responsible.

As with my last post, I hope I make sense without insulting.

One of the things that has got me through the last 6-8 months is remembering that recovery is a process.

I have to trust in the process, and understand that I cannot do anything to speed it up or make it feel less painful to my SAH, or easier.

Realizing that has actually helped my own healing. I cannot take proper care of myself if I am working on him.

Not to mention, when I get through this hell of learning about healing from SA and all the work I need, I want a whole grown up partner of a man. If I have to be his mom, that is not going to happen.

[This message edited by too trusting BW at 8:32 AM, October 30th (Saturday)]


Me 39
SA-FWH 44
11yrs M
In R-maybe
3 DC from Marriage #1
1 DS together
at least 4 d-days

Posts: 1300 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Kansas
notasaint
♀ Member
Member # 28465
Default  Posted: 5:14 PM, October 30th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you tootrusting! I do understand where you are coming from. IC has not really made the distinction in the minimizing kind of way. She used the terms to explain to him what the real issue was (that it's not about the sex). Definitely no minimizing going on, WH has admitted her relates to any SA, no matter what their "acting out" behavior is. His issues do not involve the compulsions for actual sex or the urges for sex acts. His compulsions are related to the acceptance/validation. Doesn't make it better nor make either of us feel like he doesn't have a problem. He does, no doubt about it.

There is not a CSAT here except one that works at an inpatient hospital program. That's it and no, we don't live in a rural area at all, it's a big city!!! I wish we could get him to one but he's going to look into an IC that specializes in addictions overall since that looks like his only option. What do you think?

P.S. Anyone have a copy of Mending a Shattered Heart I can borrow then send back? Amazon is out of stock and cancelled my order, can't seem to find it on other book store sites.

[This message edited by notasaint at 5:16 PM, October 30th (Saturday)]


Me - BW 36
Him - FWH 38 SLA (newlywednupset)
M < 1 year
D-days 8/2009 and 4/2010 TT to 10/2010
3 OW over the course of 2 years, all older, one married.
* My husband was in an open relationship from day one, he just failed to tell ME this.*

Posts: 1048 | Registered: May 2010 | From: FL
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, October 30th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

notasaint
I responded to your post in the other forum about MaSH. You can order it directly from Gentle Path Press.
7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
UnbearablySadd
♀ Member
Member # 18150
Default  Posted: 2:58 AM, November 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks, too trusting. Very good points.

There are no csats here. We've tried together and separately a lot of local therapists - and I've also worked with many others for my kids' sakes on a variety of their (non affair) related issues (chronic health, their father's abuse, learning disabilities, adhd, depression, anxiety, divorcing their dad, detc etc), and unfortunately after 14 years in this region can say - and have verified via out of region therapists - that this region to put it technically SUCKS in terms of ANY kind of health care (and I can validate THAT for physical care, as well - all over the place). This area is pretty, low cost and "nice" to raise a family in, but the medical /psychological care is bankrupt!

I have no intention of doing his work for him. I want to know he has "heard" the concept, and then he can decide what to do about it. This is simply explaining what SA is. If he sees himself in it, then great. If he sees himself in it and starts recovery, even better.

I did "all" the work a few years ago when it was "only" an affair (HAHHAHHAHAH, if I'd only known then I'd be saying this now!!), and as you point out so ably, my learning did CRAP nothing to help repair the marriage, although he did appear attentive and trying at the time.. .

I am working on my own healing via another site and hope that he will choose to join me there. If not... well, I'll have healed. And, eventually assume, will move on.

Thank you for sharing your concerns :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQd8M5t4Ao&NR=1

it's all about James Hunter, now ;)

And here's the 180 link:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=256092


Posts: 1379 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: This side of R that side of S
knutz
♀ Member
Member # 28877
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, November 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello All,

I have been struggling for weeks and weeks with the feeling that husband just does not "get" the pain I have been in, and the fact that he is not showing true remorse. I started re-reading Mending A Shattered Heart again, and found a passage that I thought was very helpful for me to understand what is going on. I thought it might be helpful to some of you.

Mods -- if I am out of line by posting this verbatim from the book (copyright issues) please delete.

Here is is:

Why should I forgive? I am so angry about what my spouse did. I want true remorse, not "I'm sorry". When will my spouse get how he hurt me?

Wanting your partner to "really get" how he hurt you is a normal wish but may be futile. Don't stop believing this is important for you. However, in early recovery there is very little available for you because all the energy your partner put into his addiction must now be directed toward his own recovery. In some ways you may be similar to two ships passing in the night. For a period of time you will be wrestling with your own distinct issues that, for you, can't be fully understood by the other. The addict can no more understand your need for remorse than you can understand what it's like for him to not act out for 30 days. Itís more important to pay attention to his actions about recovery because recovery becomes the stepping stones for deeper amends to those the addict has hurt and that will come with time. The addict may make many promises, but it will be the cumulative actions in support of challenging his addictive thinking and behavior that will give you small vestiges of hope about his growing capacity to experience remorse. Further in recovery you should expect -- in writing or with the presence of a trained professional -- an acknowledgement of what he did to you, and the addict should listen as you explain how he has hurt you. This will further honor your need to right the wrongs done to you.


Together 23 years
Married 20 Years
BW (me) 48
FWH: 49 (rSA)
2 children, 9 & 12
DDay: December 27, 2009
"Life is not what it is supposed to be. It is what it is. The way we cope with it is what makes the difference". Virginia Satir

Posts: 188 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: New England
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, November 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

knutz
Yep and that's exactly why I recommend MaSH to everyone.

SAs and their spouses are NEVER in the same place in early recovery and it's maddening. But it is what it is and you have to push through if you both want to recover and reconcile.
7

P.S. I posted pics of our family in the Halloween Pics thread...
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=379503&HL=10198

[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 12:37 PM, November 1st (Monday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
notasaint
♀ Member
Member # 28465
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, November 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OMG 7yrs!!! I love, love, love the decorations!!! Purple is my fave color :)

Great to see the family too :)

Knutz,

Thank you for that part of the book. Can't wait to get my copy, I really want to read this one and feel like I need it, I'm going crazy.

[This message edited by notasaint at 8:04 PM, November 1st (Monday)]


Me - BW 36
Him - FWH 38 SLA (newlywednupset)
M < 1 year
D-days 8/2009 and 4/2010 TT to 10/2010
3 OW over the course of 2 years, all older, one married.
* My husband was in an open relationship from day one, he just failed to tell ME this.*

Posts: 1048 | Registered: May 2010 | From: FL
knutz
♀ Member
Member # 28877
Default  Posted: 8:37 PM, November 1st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are welcome. The book will help alot.

7, your little girl is soooooo cute!!!!!!


Together 23 years
Married 20 Years
BW (me) 48
FWH: 49 (rSA)
2 children, 9 & 12
DDay: December 27, 2009
"Life is not what it is supposed to be. It is what it is. The way we cope with it is what makes the difference". Virginia Satir

Posts: 188 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: New England
torn2bits
♀ Member
Member # 28376
Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, November 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey everyone! Has anyone noticed that a lot of our WH's are in their 40's. Mine is 45. Shocker! This generation using sex as a medicator.

I have a question. Are we really supposed to wait around until they feel remorse while working on our own healing? I mean, my WH is still in denial but going to IC and wants to go to MC. He doesn't believe me when I say that I would walk thru fire for him. He goes into this needy coma of low self esteem. He was teary and petting a stuffed animal after we talked last nite. He says the sexual thing,etc. Is his business.
I just wondered because it has been stated not to stay if he is not in recovery, but he is not telling me anything but wants to work on things with me. I am going crazy. The kids are so confused cause he's in a different room and I am not doing family things with him anymore cause he is till lying and I believe still messaging her.

Any advice?


Me: 44/WH (SA): 49
M: 24 years 3 kids over 10 yrs old
EA/ PA Dec. 2009 -Divorce pending

Posts: 1240 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 11:03 PM, November 2nd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

torn2bits,
Yes, I have advice. Set boundaries and consequences!!

Boundary: "In order to feel safe and know that we are both moving in the right direction I'm asking you to see a CSAT and seek recovery from your sex addiction."

Consequence: "If you choose not to seek recovery, I choose to no longer... (pick something you CAN AND WILL do! It cannot be an idle threat!) Here are some examples (which kinda comes down to doing the 180)
*share a bed with you. (this includes no sexual contact)
*do your laundry
*cook your meals

Find a CSAT for YOU. Begin YOUR recovery. Read the books I recommended. Work with your IC (preferably a CSAT) on learning to set boundaries. Go to SANON or COSA. Focus on YOU and YOUR recovery. Be healthy, with or without him. You cannot force him to seek recovery but you certainly do have the right to set a boundary and ask that he seek recovery but you have to follow through with consequences if he cannot respect your boundary.

There may come a point, when you're healthy and he's not, that you will choose to leave. Maybe not. But you HAVE to work YOUR recovery and not worry about him and his. He either will or he won't. What YOU do is up to YOU.

7

[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 11:04 PM, November 2nd (Tuesday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
hoosiergirl
♀ Member
Member # 29902
Default  Posted: 5:51 PM, November 3rd (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are all partners of sex addicts co-addicts?

Posts: 92 | Registered: Oct 2010
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 10:16 PM, November 3rd (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hoosiergirl
Are all partners of sex addicts co-addicts?

No. We may all make mistakes and behave in co-addictive or co-dependent ways at times. There are definitely some who are co-addicts, so I'm not saying that none are. You can't say "all" or "none" when you're dealing with SA.


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
hoosiergirl
♀ Member
Member # 29902
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, November 4th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you....I'm going to IC, and so is my WH. We start marriage counseling next week. I'm reading Mending A Shattered Heart and keeping an open mind. I'm reading some of these behaviors and they don't describer me. Maybe I am having an adverse reaction to being called an "addict" too....I can definitely see the need for support but a 12 step program for me....I'm not sure. I'll keep reading. Thank you.

Posts: 92 | Registered: Oct 2010
notasaint
♀ Member
Member # 28465
Default  Posted: 11:11 AM, November 4th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Chiming in here for hoosiergirl.

Check out cosacall.com and dial in for a couple of their meetings. I thought the same thing, that I must be co dependent on my SA. It was very clear about 30 minutes into that first call that I am not co dependent. I agree with 7yrs that I've at times acted that way but overall I'm not needing a 12 step program for myself. I need to set boundaries and consequences.

I started doing Recovery Nation online too in the last few weeks and have found the information and workshops extremely helpful, might be something for you to check out.


Me - BW 36
Him - FWH 38 SLA (newlywednupset)
M < 1 year
D-days 8/2009 and 4/2010 TT to 10/2010
3 OW over the course of 2 years, all older, one married.
* My husband was in an open relationship from day one, he just failed to tell ME this.*

Posts: 1048 | Registered: May 2010 | From: FL
hoosiergirl
♀ Member
Member # 29902
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, November 4th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you! I will definitely check that out and also look into Recovery Nation. I don't want to undermine his process or his recovery. At the same time, I don't want to be labeled something that I'm not. I admit that yes, I have exhibited some of the behaviors such as denial (I didn't realize how much porn was playing a part in his LIFE!) I will continue to be open minded and own my "stuff" but wanted to make sure that I am not going to be put in a box by the SA community...if that makes sense.

Thanks again. I am new at this I am still learning and understanding.


Posts: 92 | Registered: Oct 2010
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, November 4th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hoosiergirl
Maybe I am having an adverse reaction to being called an "addict" too

This is exactly the same reaction I had early on! In fact it actually sent me into a rage! Be sure to read:

"Deceived: Facing Sexual Betrayal, Lies and Secrets" by Claudia Black PhD

and

"Your Sexually Addicted Spouse: How Partners Can Cope and Heal" by Barbara Steffens and Marsha Means

They both are better at viewing the spouse as a victim of a terrible trauma and focus less on trying to shove all spouses of SA into the old, tiny little box of codependency and co-addiction. Those are not both a given and I really hope that the professionals continue to stop trying to force labels on us.
7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
Bamboozled1
♀ Member
Member # 5764
Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, November 4th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm going to beg to differ here a bit. I've been in S-Anon for 5 years. I can't think of anywhere in our literature that labels us a a co-dep or co-addict. I too, didn't like the idea of being labeled as a "co" anything in the beginning. Now, I could care less. Just as the addict doesn't want to admit that they have a problem, most of us who are affected by an SA don't want to pin a label on ourselves.

The primary focus of a program like S-Anon is to keep the focus on yourself--to break thru the denial--to learn how to set healthy boundaries--how to live a life that allows the addict to work on their own recovery (and to learn how to NOT become their accountability partner)--to re-learn how to be happy, joyous and free. It's not about anyone but ourselves, and it's never a bad thing to learn how to grow spiritually. For those of you affected by another person's sexual addiction, get all the help you can. There's nothing like face to face contact with people who have been there, done that, and are working to stop living in the problem and are seeking a solution for themselves.


Posts: 1851 | Registered: Nov 2004
notasaint
♀ Member
Member # 28465
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, November 4th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Bamboozled1!

Unfortunately there are literally no S-Anon meetings in my area. This is where I would LIKE to go. My options are COSA meetings and Celebrate Recovery. That's it. After listening in on a COSA meeting I did not find it helpful at all as it's about the 12 steps for the codependent.

For me I think S-Anon would be ideal, I've emailed them to ask about maybe starting a meeting in this area as it's a big city and there are lots of SA/SLAA meetings. No CSAT here either. I agree though, getting help wherever I can is optimal!


Me - BW 36
Him - FWH 38 SLA (newlywednupset)
M < 1 year
D-days 8/2009 and 4/2010 TT to 10/2010
3 OW over the course of 2 years, all older, one married.
* My husband was in an open relationship from day one, he just failed to tell ME this.*

Posts: 1048 | Registered: May 2010 | From: FL
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