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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts 5
too trusting BW
♀ Member
Member # 15459
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, November 23rd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My 2 cents too on scanning:

I see my SAH (on occasion) running many errands. All of these are innocent, even helpful, and I am sure he would not admit it at this point there is any relation to his addiction.

I believe there is. He will go to the grocery store and not mind AT ALL that he just went earlier that day.
These will happen in spurts and most often during tense difficult times around here, on the weekend only.

This is one of those things that I think he "thinks" he has a handle on, because he doesn't use it to full on act out, but is in denial about what he is really doing.

I still see him when driving, scanning every damn car. You'd think he would have a neck problem.


Me 39
SA-FWH 44
11yrs M
In R-maybe
3 DC from Marriage #1
1 DS together
at least 4 d-days

Posts: 1300 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Kansas
cleo
♀ Member
Member # 9000
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, November 23rd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WS was just diagnosed SA and we have only been to a few counseling sessions with a CSAT, he just got referral to a SA program last night.

I can tell my WS is not ready for recovery...he shows anger toward me and is still lying. He said he sent a no contact letter to the latest OW(who he says he is in love with) but I have not seen it.

I kicked him out last night on advice of the counselor and told him he was not welcome for Thanksgiving. I told our three adult sons everything....they were totally shocked. I hate to see them in such pain.

I am going to pick up some of the recommended books and have another meeting with the counselor on Friday with the kids.

My WS acts like he is trying but I just get a bad feeling that it is all an act and he is still in contact with his lover.

I have been reading posts and have to say that it seems very discouraging that so many SA relapse. My best friend, my non CSAT counselor and even my mother in law seem to think I should divorce him, that there is now way this can ever be fixed, or trust can never be restored.

This is so confusing. So hard to know what to do. It feels so hopeless.


BS(me)54
WS(him)52 - diagnosed SA in 2011
Filed for Divorce 11/12 - he is still chasing women
Disclosed 14 affairs beginning 1 year after our marriage in 1986

Posts: 748 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: Texas
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, November 23rd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just want to shout out to JustWow and too trusting BW for their excellent posts on this page and the end of the last.

And for cleo:

I have been reading posts and have to say that it seems very discouraging that so many SA relapse. My best friend, my non CSAT counselor and even my mother in law seem to think I should divorce him, that there is now way this can ever be fixed, or trust can never be restored.

SA is the hardest addiction to kick because they carry the chemicals in their brains. But it can be done. (See my post on page 20 about abstinence contracts, it explains the brain chemistry issue as well) It takes time and hard work. Your SA has to hit rock bottom before he can get serious about recovery. I think the counselor's advice about kicking him out and asking him to stay away for Thanksgiving is good, as long as it's done in the right way. "I love you too much to be with you if you will not embrace recovery from your SA. I cannot feel safe or trust you unless I see you working hard at recovery. Right now you cannot be in our home. I'm doing this to keep myself safe but also because I love you." Something like that. You wouldn't want it to be done in a way that shames him. He is FULL of shame (whether you see it or not, it's THERE, SA is very much a shame based addiction) and if you go at him in anger and in trying to shame him, it will reinforce what he already thinks. (see below, the 4 Core Beliefs of a SA)

This is for everyone... always remember this:

The 4 Core Beliefs of a Sex Addict
1. "I am basically a bad, unworthy person."
2. "No one would love me as I am." (Or, "If you knew me, really, really knew me, you would leave me!")
3. "My needs are never going to be met if I have to depend on others."
4. "Sex is my most important need." (or "Sex is the only way I can get love.")

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
cleo
♀ Member
Member # 9000
Default  Posted: 9:53 PM, November 23rd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7yrsbetrayed,

You are so wise....but I guess I already screwed that up cause when I kicked him out it was more like, "You have hurt your family so much for so many years, and continue to willfully do so by continued contact with this new OW - therefore you cannot live with us right now. You are not welcome for Thanksgiving.

Crap! It is so hard to be level headed when you have spent 25 years being hurt and used by the man you love. I wish I could detach. I need to detach!

I just sent him a stupid email saying " You told OW that you did not love me anymore.....Well I don't love you anymore either." How stupid is that. I need to detach and stop engaging him. It feels so impossible.

Bookstore tomorrow for me....gonna pick up some of those books.


BS(me)54
WS(him)52 - diagnosed SA in 2011
Filed for Divorce 11/12 - he is still chasing women
Disclosed 14 affairs beginning 1 year after our marriage in 1986

Posts: 748 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: Texas
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 10:39 PM, November 23rd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

cleo,
Don't worry about it. And actually this
"You have hurt your family so much for so many years, and continue to willfully do so by continued contact with this new OW - therefore you cannot live with us right now. You are not welcome for Thanksgiving.

Is not that bad. I was just giving an example. It doesn't have to be lovey dovey. If that's what you said, that really is a good way to say it without belittling him. You stated the facts without getting into all the drama.

I need to detach and stop engaging him.

Yes, this is true. Don't let him bait you. Express your boundary, that you need to know he is seeking recovery before he can return home and leave it at that. Don't get into any drama.

For example...

The boundary you set is:

In order to feel safe and that there is any hope of R, I need to know you're in recovery (and spell out what that means, i.e. seeing a CSAT, going to SA, whatever will show you that he's embraced recovery) and seeking sexual sobriety. (Or however you want to say it, but just be straightforward without a lot of extraneous emotion)

The consequence you set is: Until I see that you have embraced recovery I do not feel safe to have you living at home. You will be welcome home when you've shown me that you're making progress in your recovery. (or however you want to word it.)

As for the books. You should probably do your research, make sure you have titles and authors down and call around and make sure they have them. You will probably not find "Mending a Shattered Heart" in a local bookstore. We've all had to order online. I did find "Deceived" at a local Barnes and Noble (I checked for availability online) but the problem was that once I was in the store I could not find it. It wasn't with the self help books. It wasn't with the addiction books. It was in sexuality right next to all the "almost" porn. Books on how to give great oral sex and 50 years of playboy! I was so pissed off. The last place I needed to be was in that area that caused me to trigger so badly! So, again, call around ask if they have the books and ask them to pull them and hold them for you at the desk so you don't have to wander through the store looking for them.

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
cleo
♀ Member
Member # 9000
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, November 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7yrsbetrayed

Thanks again for the great info. My counselor suggested - Don't call it Love and Out of the Shadows.
I ordered MASH on Amazon last night.

What is making me so crazy right now is that I believe my WS is still in communication with OW, but he says he is not and I have no way of knowing, except that I can see his phone records and there are some Iphone emails sent yesterday. That is how he had been talking to her. He has secret emails and when I find one he cancels it and opens another.

That is what is so hard....there is no way to really know if he is in true recovery or not, cause he lies and lies about lying. How can I live this way? I know, I know, just take care of myself and work my recovery. Crap. I hate this sooooo much.


BS(me)54
WS(him)52 - diagnosed SA in 2011
Filed for Divorce 11/12 - he is still chasing women
Disclosed 14 affairs beginning 1 year after our marriage in 1986

Posts: 748 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: Texas
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, November 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cleo,
In my experience, Out of the Shadows is way too intense and scary for Just Found Outs, please hold off on that. Don't Call It Love is good but again a little heavy for JFOs. I recommend you read MaSH or Deceived or even Your Sexually Addicted Spouse first, any of those three. Then the other two and then move on to Don't Call It Love. And in all honesty my personal recommendation is that your SA read Out of the Shadows but you don't. It really is written to scare the SA and we spouses don't need that, we're scared enough. Many counselors fell into the habit of recommending the Carnes books because there was a time when those were the only books available. Now there are such wonderful books specifically for the spouse but the counselors haven't kept up. I'm not slamming your counselor at all just explaining what I've found to be true.

I read Out of the Shadows first because it was recommended and it was not good. I was where you are now, not knowing if my rSA was still lying and gaslighting me and the book made things 10x worse. I accused my rSA of having done everything mentioned in the book and let's just say there are things mentioned (as a cautionary tale to the SA) that are horrifying to the newbie spouse. My reading that book actually set us back several months it triggered me that badly. I know it's done the same to others too.

Ask your SA to read it.

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, November 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My full list of advice is posted a couple times in this thread, on page 3 and I think on page 18 or so. Here is an abbreviated reading list for anyone who just needs to find the recommended books. :)

The spouse should read these three books first, in any order.
"Mending a Shattered Heart: A Guide for Partners of Sex Addicts" by Stefanie Carnes.

"Deceived: Facing Sexual Betrayal, Lies and Secrets" by Claudia Black PhD

"Your Sexually Addicted Spouse: How Partners Can Cope and Heal" by Barbara Steffens and Marsha Means

Then read:
"Don't Call It Love: Recovery From Sexual Addiction" by Patrick Carnes (I recommend you read this after you've read the others, but not before, you really need the foundation of support and understanding from the other books first.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The SA should read:
"Out of the Shadows: Understanding Sexual Addiction" by Patrick Carnes

and

"Don't Call It Love: Recovery From Sexual Addiction" by Patrick Carnes

Hope this helps,
7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, November 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Double post, sorry.

[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 12:30 PM, November 24th (Wednesday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
cleo
♀ Member
Member # 9000
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, November 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7yrsbetrayed - thanks again!
I did read Deceived and thought it was a very helpful. My Counselor did warn me about the content in the two books he mentioned.... I am hoping my SA got them as he was supposed to.

I am going to take your advice and get the other books you recommend first. I ordered MASH already and I will see about the others.

I really appreciate you taking the time to help me. I will read your previous posts.

Have a great Thanksgiving.


BS(me)54
WS(him)52 - diagnosed SA in 2011
Filed for Divorce 11/12 - he is still chasing women
Disclosed 14 affairs beginning 1 year after our marriage in 1986

Posts: 748 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: Texas
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, November 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You're welcome cleo, I hope your holiday is peaceful.
7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
torn2bits
♀ Member
Member # 28376
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, November 24th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am in the same situation as Cleo. He lies, still sees her and has a wierd rash on his mouth. I filed and if he doesn't respond in 2 weeks then we are not married any longer and living in separate bedrooms in the same house. I confronted him on him seeing her last week, he denies the cup in his car from the gas station she works at. He says we are done and takes his ring off for 2 days. He sleeps with a stuffed animal. Ignores me for 2 days then early in the morning comes to my room and pats me on the head and gives my forehead a kiss. Next day ring back on dinner made and is asking me how my day was!


Me: 44/WH (SA): 49
M: 24 years 3 kids over 10 yrs old
EA/ PA Dec. 2009 -Divorce pending

Posts: 1240 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest
wowseriously
♀ Member
Member # 30183
Default  Posted: 1:13 AM, November 25th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I didn't know if I should start a new topic or post in here since it's about SA...

curious about the 180 and SA. I just recenlty found out my wh is having an ea with someone he works with. I'm trying to find more info.

I'm pretty sure he's a SA. I don't want to list out all details yet as I'm too embarrassed to for now =(

anyways, I'm trying to do the 180 but got to thinking it I should with him if he could be a SA?? Seems like issues with sa's are handled differently. I worry cutting off emotion and love and attention will push him further into his addiction...
hope this makes sense!



dday 12/2004
dday 9/23/2010 although my gut told me 5/10... I've just 'known' and need to know the whole truth. I want a D at this point. I deserve way better.
10/11 way too many lies, leaving

Posts: 203 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: lost and lonely
cleo
♀ Member
Member # 9000
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, November 25th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wowseriously,

No answers for you as I am new to this forum. Just wanted you to know you are heard and in my prayers today

Cleo


BS(me)54
WS(him)52 - diagnosed SA in 2011
Filed for Divorce 11/12 - he is still chasing women
Disclosed 14 affairs beginning 1 year after our marriage in 1986

Posts: 748 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: Texas
wowseriously
♀ Member
Member # 30183
Default  Posted: 8:01 PM, November 25th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thank you cleo!



dday 12/2004
dday 9/23/2010 although my gut told me 5/10... I've just 'known' and need to know the whole truth. I want a D at this point. I deserve way better.
10/11 way too many lies, leaving

Posts: 203 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: lost and lonely
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 12:42 AM, November 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I worry cutting off emotion and love and attention will push him further into his addiction...

Not doing some version of the 180 on him is enabling him. This is NOT good for either of you.

So yes, you need to do the 180... BUT when it's with a SA it's a different thing. I prefer to say that you need to set boundaries and consequences. Sadly, this is really, really hard to do and hard to learn for the spouse. We've been codeps for so long, it's a hard pattern to break.

Look on Page 3 of this thread for my list of advice/resources for newbies. Read it. Get the books and read them. Find a CSAT for yourself. Work on you so you can learn how to set boundaries and consequences.

Read through this thread too. I've posted a ton of info.

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
notasaint
♀ Member
Member # 28465
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, November 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We've been codeps for so long, it's a hard pattern to break

I'm going to have to disagree here. And I do realize I'm still very new to SA but just because someone is married to a SA doesn't mean they are codependent nor coaddicts themselves.

Edited to add: I'm not saying I'm not a coaddict, in fact I think I probably am in some ways. I just don't think every spouse of a SA should be automatically designated a codependent or coaddict.

[This message edited by notasaint at 12:18 PM, November 26th (Friday)]


Me - BW 36
Him - FWH 38 SLA (newlywednupset)
M < 1 year
D-days 8/2009 and 4/2010 TT to 10/2010
3 OW over the course of 2 years, all older, one married.
* My husband was in an open relationship from day one, he just failed to tell ME this.*

Posts: 1048 | Registered: May 2010 | From: FL
FmrLIer
♀ Member
Member # 29784
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, November 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


We've been codeps for so long, it's a hard pattern to break

I'm going to have to disagree here. And I do realize I'm still very new to SA but just because someone is married to a SA doesn't mean they are codependent nor coaddicts themselves

I'm not sure if my fWH is an SA or not yet, but, I suspect he is (we have counseling next week).

I've been following this thread and taking advice from everyone here, especially 7. I've read MASH and also another book recommended here. The one thing I really had difficulty believing is that I too am "co" anything. But, after reading MASH, I found that some of my behavior over the last year has been just that - co-dependent and it's a hard pill to swallow.

I had changed my own mentality on porn and under the pretense of trying to have a more exciting sex life, I looked into Hedonism and nude beaches and such. What I didn't realize was that I was simply trying to make his behavior of looking at porn all the time seem normal in my world. I think I was trying to minimize his behavior by almost compromising my own.

I thank God that we didn't follow through with any of it but sitting back and thinking about how I fell into the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality really is a slap in the face.

He and I talked about it and I let him know that that is simply NOT me. And that I would NOT allow myself to become that person again to make him or myself feel better.


Me (BS)
Him (fSAH)
OA/PA

Ignorance was bliss but it wasn't the reality of my marriage...


Posts: 427 | Registered: Oct 2010
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, November 26th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

notasaint
I've been where you are. It's a complicated thing and even I don't like that we are all automatically labeled co-dep and I absolutely disagree with labeling all spouses co-addicts! However, just the fact that we've lived with SA for all these years means that at any given time, we've behaved in co-dep ways just to get by. That's what I meant. I don't think any of us are co-dep ALL THE TIME. I get your anger, like I said I've been there. But it's not an all or nothing thing. It's very much a gray area.

In fact, your ETA basically says what I'm saying.

FmrLIer expresses it well:

I found that some of my behavior over the last year has been just that - co-dependent and it's a hard pill to swallow.

How many of us have accepted things that we find unacceptable? How many of us have viewed porn with our spouse thinking that made it all ok? How many of us have engaged in sexual acts we were actually uncomfortable with to please our spouses? How many of us did these things BEFORE we knew about the SA? How many of us did these things AFTER we knew? How many of us missed huge red flags that should have tipped us off?

So, like I said, it's very complicated and I do take issue with the automatic labels and/or trying to force all spouses of SA into ONE box. There are many, many different ways in which one can behave in a codependent way but it doesn't make us all co-addicts. Everyone is different and the levels of codependency are different and can change from day to day. I do like that the trend is moving toward saying we're victims of trauma and away from blaming us for not knowing what we couldn't have known. I guess my big issue is with assuming that we CHOSE to behave as co-deps when in actuality we were victimized and doing the only thing we could do at the time. There is a HUGE difference.

Hope that makes sense.
7

[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 12:59 PM, November 26th (Friday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
dazdandconfuzed
Member
Member # 11692
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, November 27th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've been here on SI for over 4 years - but I guess it's time to stop lying to myself and join this thread. After the "big" dday, I did believe my H was an SA and told him so. I'm pretty sure at some point over the last 4 years 7yrs has posted on more than one of my threads asking me if I ever considered if my H was an SA. But I got "maybe I am an SA but I am not acting out in ANY way now, so can we please just drop this"?

Well, it was dday again for me just a couple of days ago so there really is no pretending any more. I suppose what he's been doing could maybe called "slipping" or "acting out" rather than an A. There has been 1 particular woman, half our age, that he has been having very explicit sexual banter with. She flashed him her naked breasts on 2 occasions. This has been going on for about a year. He did plan on going to her apt for actual sex at one point but chickened out at the last minute. I guess it doesn't matter what you call it, it's cheating.

My H is also an alcoholic/drug addict. I *thought* he had been clean and sober for 4 years. This all came out because I caught him using again. I guess he has been using on and off for about a year. It is about the same time the SA acting out started, with many more women than the one I just mentioned but that one was the one that was the most consistent and the one that he took the closest to a PA.

I am beaten down. I don't know if I have any hope at this point. He hasn't been doing AA meetings or going to IC for 2 or 3 years now. When he did go he never worked the steps.

He will now admit that he thinks he's an SA but I think the inherint shame will keep him for actively working toward recovery. He did the online free assessment and I asked to look at his answers before he submitted it. I had to correct him on some of the answers - for example he said NO to ever doing anything illegal. I had to remind him that getting a BJ standing behind his car in broad daylight on a busy street would actually get him arrested if caught by a policeman.

Interestingly enough, he never goes through anorexic phases. I suppose you would say that I do, though - as we have sex without intimacy and sometimes *I* pull away because I feel like I am being treated like a slut and then I start distancing myself sexually from him.

He had a poly examiner out this morning to prove that I now have the "whole truth" about his sexual activites, drinking and drug abuse. I wish I could say I am looking forward to getting the results, but I doubt he'll pass.

I am just so tired. I don't know if I have it in me to do this any more. I cried a bit the first night I found out, but compared to the first dday not much. And I haven't shed a tear since. I don't know if I am just numb - or if I'm done. I don't have much hope that he will do what is necessary to recover. With is drug/alcohol sobriety, he always wanted me to be his mother. When I suspected he was using, I would adminster random urine tests. He said he liked it, that it held him accountable. But he was finding drugs to do that my tests didn't pick up. Sexual sobriety would involve his THOUGHTS. He has never shared those with me with any regularity. There is no way to "prove" he's sober.

I just don't feel much hope right now.


Me - BW
Him - WH

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