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User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts 5
Tal
♀ Member
Member # 3300
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does anyone have any opinions on the Carnes book that focuses on SA porn addiction: The Shadows of the Net?


Posts: 2145 | Registered: Jan 2004
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

KickedintheGut
He's an atheist, but says that in the last few months, he's been trying to at least see if there is anything in the spiritual "stuff" for him. We've been going to church and he's been listening to the church podcasts on his drive time to and from work which he enjoys. He's trying to see a bigger hand at work in things and his attitude has definitely changed in the past month.

My rSA and I are secular humanists (a nice way to say atheist or non-believer). The whole 12-step model and "giving it up to God" thing wasn't an issue because my rSA found secular 12-steps he could substitute (which I will post here for you). My advice is that if your rSA is truly an atheist (not just an agnostic or someone who doesn't like organized religion but TRULY does not believe in God) he might want to consider sticking with that and not trying to "find religion" and here is why. The success rate among atheists vs Christians is very good. Atheists tend to have much better success with getting sober and staying sober. My rSA's CSAT has treated many atheists and he's never had one slip or relapse. He himself is a Christian and a recovering SA who went to college at a seminary. He's very religious. He's had a relapse and he said pretty much all of his Christian clients slip or relapse at some point. He theorizes that perhaps it's because atheists lack an entire layer of guilt and shame that Christians have. I personally found this fascinating. So, this is not hard scientific data but anecdotally, it seems that atheists may do better in recovery.

Disclaimer: I am NOT pushing atheism. I have no interest in converting anyone. I have no agenda. I don't care what you or your husband believe or don't believe. Live and let live, that's my motto. I'm just sharing knowledge that I got from a very successful and respected CSAT. Nothing more.

Here are 2 different secular 12 steps:

Humanist 12 Steps:

1. We accept the fact that all our efforts to stop acting out sexually have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow man, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to act out sexually.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We honestly hope they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way that will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such lists and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way.

The Atheist/Agnostic 12 Steps

1. We admitted that we were using sexual acting out in spite of better judgment, and that it was destroying many aspects of, if not all aspects of our lives and causing harm to ourselves and those around us.

2. Came to realize that we needed the support of others that could truly relate to us, what our acting out had done to us and those around us, and could help steer us back on track when our thinking and behavior got destructive. In short, that we can not find all of the answers alone.

3. Made a decision to turn my will and my life into the right direction, despite my desire to overindulge myself. I realized that I am much more fulfilled as a person when I am truly there to take care of myself and others; and that this is impossible when actively acting out.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves the exact nature of our wrongs. When appropriate, asked the opinions of others and were willing to take those opinions into consideration, whether they were what we wanted to hear or not.

6. Were entirely ready to make a plan of action to stop these behaviors that were harmful to us and others.

7. Let go of resentments, or at least became willing to try. Started to acknowledge that many of our resentments really came down to our defects, not those of others.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Made a genuine effort to maintain a positive attitude, practice patience and understanding of others, and remain honest with ourselves when tracing the root of our troubles. Continued to think for ourselves and not be easily led, but seriously considered the input of others.

12. Having a much stronger sense of self-worth and purpose as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other SAs, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

So, if he was just questioning his faith and not really an atheist then this doesn't apply but if he is a non-believer and struggles with the "God is my higher power" part of it, the above might help.

Tal

Everything by Carnes is good.

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
KickedintheGut
♀ Member
Member # 30086
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you so much 7. He's more of a "never seen any proof in God so how would I know" kind of guy.

He wants to be able to connect with the 12 step program, but the God thing really has been his road block (or he's allowing it to be his roadblock) but either way, something has to give. His new IC is also faith based, but that's only because addiction specialists are scarce and my IC nixed some of the others on his list.

I am going to forward this on to him. Again, I truly appreciate it.


Me - BW (38) Him (calcitro) - SAWH (38)
2 Kids Working on R
DDay#1 - 11/9/10 - 2 year EA/PA
DDay #2 - 12/9/10
Disclosure - 4/8/11
Timeline - 5/9/11

Posts: 492 | Registered: Nov 2010
FmrLIer
♀ Member
Member # 29784
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Any opinions on me sitting down alone to talk to the CSAT? I know he won't be able to talk specifically about my SA but I have "generic" questions I'd like answered and it's really expensive if we do a couple session vs. his individual session.

Of course, I'm assuming he'll even see the partner of a SA


Me (BS)
Him (fSAH)
OA/PA

Ignorance was bliss but it wasn't the reality of my marriage...


Posts: 427 | Registered: Oct 2010
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

KickedintheGut
Are you certain there are no CSATs anywhere near you? Did you use www.iitap.com/find_csat.cfm to search?

If I already asked, I'm sorry, I can't keep track of everything and everyone. I answer and ask the same questions over and over so it gets hard to keep track of what I said and to whom.


FmrLIer

Any opinions on me sitting down alone to talk to the CSAT? I know he won't be able to talk specifically about my SA but I have "generic" questions I'd like answered and it's really expensive if we do a couple session vs. his individual session.

Of course, I'm assuming he'll even see the partner of a SA


If your husband will sign a release there is no reason you can't see his CSAT alone and discuss whatever you want. If your husband won't sign a release that's a red flag. If the CSAT refuses to see you at all, another red flag. A couples session is probably optimal, in my opinion.

This is what we did. I wanted to talk to his CSAT. So rSA signed a release and we had a couples session where the CSAT and I spoke at length. rSA didn't really say much. It was very good and helpful for both of us. I got answers and rSA got to see someone address my questions from a calm, logical and caring stance instead of being all angry and defensive.

7

[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 1:33 PM, February 25th (Friday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
stopsayingtry
♂ Member
Member # 27429
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for posting the atheist 12 steps - never read those before

In my SA group they made a pretty big point of everyone being allowed to define their own 'higher power' (as in something outside yourself) to allow room for all religions or lack thereof. The whole point was (and is) not retreating inside but reaching out instead - to your partner, to your SA group, friends, family, etcetera.


Posts: 73 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: Netherlands
dazdandconfuzed
Member
Member # 11692
Default  Posted: 5:14 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can see H's counselor at www.iitap.com/find_csat.cfm - he is listed as a CSAT. When I look at that page, it says that they will have a 1,2,3 or 4 after their name if they are still in training. He doesn't have any number at all after his name, so that means he is done with his training, right? His web page says he trained directly with Patrick Carnes. There are only 3 male CSATs in my entire state, the one my H is seeing and 2 others that are over an hour away. We don't have a lot of choices here.

We are doing 90 days of abstinance but the CSAT hasn't been involved in it at all. He knows we are doing it but H says he hasn't gotten any input for the CSAT, it is something we decided to do on our own. According to H 12 step meetings and groups haven't been mentioned at all. The program my H is working is the recovery nation workshop.

I did show my post to H and 7's response. He said the CSAT does plan to meet with me when they are a bit further along but in the meantime is open to receiving an email from me at any time. I didn't realize that and I think I will take advantage of it.


Me - BW
Him - WH

Posts: 6618 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: Massachusetts
FmrLIer
♀ Member
Member # 29784
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If your husband will sign a release there is no reason you can't see his CSAT alone and discuss whatever you want. If your husband won't sign a release that's a red flag. If the CSAT refuses to see you at all, another red flag. A couples session is probably optimal, in my opinion.

We've done a couples appointment already but things were just so new and he had just had his slip so there wasn't a lot of time for me to ask questions. I really liked his CSAT - not to mention he studied under Carnes for a summer session (I guess that's what it was, some type of SA training).

SA signed a waiver at that appointment. Wonder if that will cover it. If not, I have no doubt he'd sign another one for me or be willing to do a joint appointment again. I think his next appointment is next week. I'll have to ask him this weekend.

Thanks, 7, as always


Me (BS)
Him (fSAH)
OA/PA

Ignorance was bliss but it wasn't the reality of my marriage...


Posts: 427 | Registered: Oct 2010
KickedintheGut
♀ Member
Member # 30086
Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is one CSAT in our area and limited availability and they do not take any insurance. The distance from his office to their office is about 40 min to an hour and they close at the same time his work closes. He's done IC and MC with our counselor and taken off time for it each time, but this is a new job so that's wearing thin. He also wants to be able to be sure that he can get to his appts. The trip to get to the CSAT would be the same one he takes to get home. The differential in the trip can be up to an hour with traffic. He could leave his office and be there in 40 minutes or an hour and 40 minutes and there's no way to tell even when he hits the highway.

Be both thought that having an IC closer to his work and within a distance that he could get there reasonably would be prudent right now.

Truly, right now, I just want him to go and do SOMETHING. Him making this appointment was huge. Yesterday was the first sign of forward movement I've seen in weeks. The IC called him out on the white knuckling and not getting into a program and making plans and moving forward. And that was in the meet and greet.

He just called and tonight he got a sponsor at the SA meeting and joined them out for dinner to try and widen his support network.


Me - BW (38) Him (calcitro) - SAWH (38)
2 Kids Working on R
DDay#1 - 11/9/10 - 2 year EA/PA
DDay #2 - 12/9/10
Disclosure - 4/8/11
Timeline - 5/9/11

Posts: 492 | Registered: Nov 2010
FmrLIer
♀ Member
Member # 29784
Default  Posted: 9:56 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Our MC says one of the biggest steps to preventing another A is to affair proof the M. MC says that WH needs to figure out why he strayed. (I'm talking about the PA's and the OA - I am dealing with the SA aspect separately to help me heal)

At first, WH said it was because we weren't communicating properly. That I was withdrawn - which happened only after the porn use became an issue and even then I still tried to sit him down and talk - he also said he wasn't feeling appreciated at home; which had been brought up and corrected on my part. So, we sat down and talked about it and he finally said it was because he felt good getting all of that attention, and realized it was because of his low self esteem. He even talked about it in MC.

Today, we were talking about it in passing and he changed the reason back to us not communicating.

Is it normal for them to have several reasons? Is it blame shifting? Is it the SA? I just fear he's not addressing the core of the issue.


Me (BS)
Him (fSAH)
OA/PA

Ignorance was bliss but it wasn't the reality of my marriage...


Posts: 427 | Registered: Oct 2010
carnelian
♀ Member
Member # 24824
Default  Posted: 11:35 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FmrLIer, I've asked myself the same questions in the past and have only come up with a couple of answers. The main one being: sometimes people simply think cheating is okay. Maybe not consciously, maybe not even for longer than the 2 minutes it takes to have sex, but at some point the idea crosses their minds. I call it "cheating is okay because..."

Yes, it is blame-shifting and also the SA. Blame-shifting in the sense that it looks like he's holding you responsible for his feelings and behaviour, and SA because it's so wrapped in shame that sometimes getting to the core of the matter can be very difficult. I mean, who wants to admit that they did it because they could or because they thought they had a "good" reason to cheat - and subsequently break the hearts of those who loved and trusted them? That would be cruel and almost inhumane. Who wants to admit that they're busted and messed up, especially when it's easier to point fingers.

You're looking for someone who turns his sights inwards, to dig up the ugly, simple truth. And I think you'll know it when you see it.

Hang in there!


What are you going to do when he leaves you?

Posts: 543 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Europe
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, February 26th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

it was because he felt good getting all of that attention, and realized it was because of his low self esteem. He even talked about it in MC.

Core Belief #1.

Today, we were talking about it in passing and he changed the reason back to us not communicating.

Core Belief #2 and blameshifting to you and being a victim. "Oh poor me."

Is it normal for them to have several reasons?

He doesn't have several reasons. He's a SA. That's reason enough.
Is it blame shifting?
Yes

Is it the SA?

YES
I just fear he's not addressing the core of the issue.

The core of the issue is SA and the 4 Core Beliefs.

He cheated because it was a progression of his SA. He's saying all this crazy shit because of the distorted SA thinking.

If he gets sober and solidly into recovery that will clear up.

You MC is off his nut if he thinks your husband cheated for other reasons UNRELATED to his SA. It's all part of his SA. Do non-SAs cheat for other "reasons?" Yes, of course, not all people who cheat are SAs. But when the cheater IS a SA, the cheating is ABSOLUTELY related to the SA and the SAs inability to control his/her behavior. Compartmented thinking: "what she doesn't know can't hurt her." "I NEED this." "I deserve this." "Me, me, me, me."

Just my opinion, of course.

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
Nouveau
Member
Member # 1731
Default  Posted: 1:57 PM, February 26th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not seeing a CSAT or in a COSA group. There are no COSA groups in my state at all. The nearest CSAT is far away. That being said, I'm seeing a very good IT right now who is more knowledgeable about SA than any other professional I could find near me, and he is really helping me deal with this issue.

My relationship with my SA/SO is over. I confronted him with my knowledge of his acting out.

Of course he did all the usual blame-shifting at first and avoidance.

This morning he said that he "tried to stop but couldn't" and that he hates what he's become. He admitted that he's an addict.

He said he is moving back to his home state to be near his family. I told him if he can't get sober for himself, to do it for his grandchildren. That he owes it to them if he is going to be in their lives. And that the only way he can become sober is CSAT treatment. He only hung his head and nodded.

Big step for him. But I've accepted that he is nowhere close to sobriety and holding no hope for reconciling.

Wake me from this terrible nightmare someone. Please.


I sing the songs of a woman who has passed through anger and outrage to a kind of stunned resignation in the face of overwhelming human folly.....

Posts: 4895 | Registered: Jul 2003 | From: The great frozen tundra
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 11:25 PM, February 26th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nouveau
I'm so sorry. I know it's painful and you need to mourn the loss.

Hang in there!

7

[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 12:09 PM, February 27th (Sunday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
runningscared
♀ New Member
Member # 30425
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, February 27th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Big hugs for you all from across the Atlantic. I'm lucky enough to be going through a fairly smooth period at the moment with my SA. I don't imagine it'll last for very long but I'm very good at forgetting (denying?) the bad bits so, at the moment, it feels like there haven't been any!

Although, if you don't mind my putting my penn'orth in, I have to be very laid back about my SA's recovery process. This hasn't been easy because I tend to dive right into problems, buying a whole library of books and making use of websites, counsellors, support groups. All my SA is doing is going to a weekly 12-step group and speaking daily to a sponsor and other group members. This was terribly frustrating at first but we're now 5 months in and I'm getting better at living my own life and he's slowly learning to connect.

To Tal, Carnes' book 'Out of the Shadows' was the first one I read so, of course, initially, I completely went along with it and believed everything. But now I've read a lot more and have had time to think about everything, I'm much more comfortable with the concept of being a stress survivor (as in Steffans & Means 'Your Sexually Addicted Spouse') than automatically being a co-addict. Carnes seems pretty accurate in terms of the SA though - or so my SA says (it's the one book he's read).

Right - I'll shut up now; hope I haven't offended anyone. One day at a time - good luck for this one.


Posts: 39 | Registered: Dec 2010
lost_in_space
♀ Member
Member # 24302
Default  Posted: 8:30 PM, February 27th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I justed wanted to share that Wh claimed to have his 90 sobriety recently but the second I wasn't home he found his way to my DSs computer and lost it. (if he had it) My DSs and I went to my sister's for the night and I hadn't put a password that WH didn't know on DS's computer so he used that.

Even though he told me without me having to ask, I am so totally disgusted that he went into my son's room and did that. I will now have to password protect my DS's computer with one DS doesn't know to protect him.

I feel so stupid for not thinking about it previously. I will be 'cleaning' the history myself so DS doesn't stumble upon any of the porn WH must have been looking at.


Me: BW 38

Last DDay: 7/15/09
TT: 2/28/11
TT: 3/5/11
Dday again: 3/10/2011
All Done: Better late then never.


Posts: 3513 | Registered: Jun 2009
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 3:03 AM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LIS,
Does he now see he needs help? SERIOUS help?

First of all, there's no way he had 90 days sober and fell THAT far. To be able to masturbate in a child's room is not something someone with 90 days would do.

So, he told you... but what else is he going to do to get sober and stay sober? If this was a "slip" his program should require that he immediately step up his recovery activities. More CSAT sessions, more meetings etc. Is he going to do anything to work harder at sobriety?

But the main question is, what are YOU going to do? What boundaries and consequences are you setting? What is his consequence for violating your son's room? Violating your trust? Lying?

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
lost_in_space
♀ Member
Member # 24302
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The only thing I can think of ME doing right now is to continue on my path to independence. I didn't have any reaction to his saying he lost his sobriety. The part that pissed me off was that it was in my son's room.

I feel like I need to be in the same house as WH so that I can monitor what my children are exposed to but at the same time I don't want to be here.

I don't know if he realizes he needs serious help. He communicates zero with me about his SA. He says I'm too hard to talk to and that there's little that he CAN talk to me about because of the guidelines of his group. I'm thinking it's bullshit. My gut screams that he isn't really invested in his recovery.

Naturally he's claiming that he needs to move back into the master bedroom to feel close to me which he claims will help him with his recovery. Being in the same room with me didn't stop him from cheating or using porn before so it seems like a lame argument.

He also let slip some TT this morning. I'm not sure whether it's good or bad that it didn't bother me. I think I've done a lot of detaching with bits of anger along the way.


Me: BW 38

Last DDay: 7/15/09
TT: 2/28/11
TT: 3/5/11
Dday again: 3/10/2011
All Done: Better late then never.


Posts: 3513 | Registered: Jun 2009
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

there's little that he CAN talk to me about because of the guidelines of his group. I'm thinking it's bullshit.
I'm thinking you're right. That's a load of shit. He should be sharing anything you ask with you as long as he's not making you his accountability partner. (Which from what you've said he IS doing which is WAY SCREWED UP and NOT ok. The spouse should NEVER be the accountability partner. The spouse should not be the one responsible for monitoring his online activities. HE should install software on every computer he has access to and set it up to send reports to someone outside your marriage. His sponsor. His counselor. ANYONE but you. If he is truly in recovery and working a program he would know this.)
Naturally he's claiming that he needs to move back into the master bedroom to feel close to me which he claims will help him with his recovery.
Obviously a manipulation and also trying to make YOU responsible for his recovery. Also bullshit.

You need to set hard and fast boundaries and consequences. One boundary needs to be seeing a CSAT weekly in addition to whatever meetings he's going to. It's obviously not working. He needs a CSAT.

You saying have to stay in the same house to protect your kids is understandable but also wildly codependent. You're trying to manage his addiction and it's impact on your kids and you really can't.

Seems to me that masturbating in son's room and leaving porn evidence on son's computer would ensure that he would not get unsupervised visits with the kids.

The whole situation sucks and I'm sorry he's not really working at recovery.

7

[This message edited by 7yrsbetrayed at 2:10 PM, February 28th (Monday)]


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
lost_in_space
♀ Member
Member # 24302
Default  Posted: 6:36 PM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you 7. I was also thinking something along your lines of "wildly codependent" but not so much wildly. That's why I've taken steps to have me and the kids out of the house as much as possible.

As for the internet stuff, Wh is REALLY internet (computer) savy and made sure to tell me he looked at porn on 'inprivate' status and runs ccleaner and other software to delete the 'evidence' so I won't see it. Obviously I need to get a keylogger installed and a VAR.

I hate having to do that.


Me: BW 38

Last DDay: 7/15/09
TT: 2/28/11
TT: 3/5/11
Dday again: 3/10/2011
All Done: Better late then never.


Posts: 3513 | Registered: Jun 2009
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