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User Topic: Npd Thread Part 8
Tryingtoheal61
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Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, October 27th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You think that this is in direct relationship to your WH's NPD? If so, how?

I do, because he and many of his family members have said that she is just like him and he gets a weird sort of glint in his eye.

I do also think that because she is the oldest that may have had something to do with it, but the difference treated to younger daughter leads me to believe it was more that older daugther is just like FWH.

From what I have read on NPD's they like their reflection and she is a reflection of him. Hence, the pedestal for her and not the other children.

[This message edited by Tryingtoheal61 at 1:46 PM, October 27th (Wednesday)]


Reconciling

Posts: 828 | Registered: Sep 2010
sadtoo
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Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, October 27th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1. When the NPD’s lashes out *covertly*, what did that look like? Or what can it look like?

This is difficult to explain because I understand *covertly* to mean secretly or under cover. So I wouldn't say that they "lash out" in a covert manner. However they plan and plot in a covert manner. When an NPD lashes out, it is a full out assault. They usually completely lose it. But they are also know to be extrememly secretive and sneaky, but can disguise it as being mysterious and almost romantic.

2. Has anyone determined that they were chosen by their NPD because you had characteristics of someone they wanted to be like?

I think this is true for all NPD victims (survivors) The NPD doesn't have a real identity so they "mirror" what they admire. This is also part of the trap and why we end up falling for them. It's almost as if we have found the perfect mate. They are like "us" in so many ways. They like the same things, the have the same beliefs, the same values, etc. Or anyways it seems that way in the beginning. We just don't know it's all a very elaborate image carefully sculpted by the NPD by watching US.

3. Has anyone with children noticed their NPD has a fondness for one child in particular because they either see their own *specialness* in that child or special characteristics that they themselves don’t have?

N/A We had no children (together)

4. Talking about adult NPD specifically and not narcissistic tendencies, is there a spectrum of degree in which a person with NPD can be affected by the disorder? Is there a scale of mild to severe for NPD or is the disorder more black and white in terms of it's affect on a person?

There is definately a scale. Almost everyone has some NPD traits. And they can be more severe at differnt times of their lives. However in order to have the full blown disorder a patient must be diagnosed by a professional. But even with that, there are still varying degrees of the disorder.

5. Despite the unique characteristics of the NP disorder that often prevents a NPD from receiving help, is help possible?

If they are on the mild side of the scale, maybe. But it will be a life long struggle. And YOU must be the type of person who is willing to be LAST in the relationship ALWAYS. And you must be willing to accept that your children will be last too. You will be forever dealing with ridiculous arguments about stupid things that shouldn't even require a converstaion let alone the full blown melt down you will be facing on a regular basis.

There will be many, many sacrifices made by the partner of an NPD. The problem is, you are not in a normal MATURE relationship. It is not give and take. It is give, give, give and then give some more. And then that won't be enough either. And "that" can be anything from money, attention, a clean house, you fill in the blank and count on it changing on a regular basis.

The world in the life of the NPD partner is like walking on eggshells, waiting for the next shoe to drop and being a mommy to an overgrown baby.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
lied2
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Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 7:33 PM, October 27th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You will be forever dealing with ridiculous arguments about stupid things that shouldn't even require a converstaion let alone the full blown melt down you will be facing on a regular basis.

Totally. God I don't miss that part at all.

Being married to someone with NPD is like a living nightmare when it is bad. They can be so up and down you have no clue from one day to the next what is going on.

Often you don't see what is happening until you get out of it and look at it from the outside.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
lied2
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Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, October 27th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine always favoured the younger child for some reason. He treated our older son much more harshly and mistreated him in so many ways.

My ex also used/uses alot of passive aggressive behaviours that I would consider covert. It was crazymaking.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
sadtoo
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Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 7:58 PM, October 27th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You will be forever dealing with ridiculous arguments about stupid things that shouldn't even require a converstaion let alone the full blown melt down you will be facing on a regular basis.

Totally. God I don't miss that part at all.

OMG. I don't either. Not one freakin bit. I was thinking about that today and all of the STUPID shit that he would start and somehow would escallate into this HUGE meltdown arguement.

Yup. The OW won the prize. Lucky her.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Rise And Shine
♀ Member
Member # 27513
Default  Posted: 6:48 AM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you everyone. Tryingtoheal, I understand the child as a reflection. Thanks.

Can someone give me a picture of the bottom two quotes? Thank you VERY much.

ridiculous arguments about stupid things that shouldn't even require a converstaion let alone the full blown melt down

Often you don't see what is happening until you get out of it and look at it from the outside.


April 25, 2009

Posts: 3263 | Registered: Feb 2010
lykkeme
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Member # 3741
Default  Posted: 7:50 AM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh yes, and don't they just have us convinced during these inane discussions that we are the crazy ones???


When it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck & shits like a duck, it's a freaking duck!!

Posts: 881 | Registered: Mar 2004 | From: the other side of hell
sadtoo
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Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can someone give me a picture of the bottom two quotes? Thank you VERY much.

I'm assuming you mean an example, cuz I don't have any pictures of him having his meltsdown. I was too busy trying to get out of the way.

An example of this would be:

One time I remember my XNPDH coming home and announcing that there was a trailride (on horseback) going on here in our state. It went on for about a week, involved camping out with men and women and lots of alcohol. He wanted to go.

I could not go because of a work REQUIREMENT.

That should have been the end of it.

Why? Because I own the horses. I own the trailer. My father owns the truck that is capable of pulling the large trailer required to haul the horses and sleep for a week. Yes, we were married, but I owned the horses BEFORE we were married.

My XNPDH had little experience with these animals and little or NO experience with loading, driving or operating this HUGE rig required to haul the animals safely. Not to mention that he would be exposed to tons of alchohol.

The truck and trailer probably had value at that time of well over $150,000 and I had to BORROW part of it. He of course, wanted to take the three of the best horses I owned. They had an enormose monetary value, but to me the personal investment and emotional value was priceless.

There was NO WAY he should have even asked to do such a thing. Our marriage was already in shambles due to former drinking problems and other behavioral issues and then he pulls this!

But it didn't stop with him just asking and having a conversation. He went on and insisted, no demanded, that I ask my father for his truck. Can you imagine? After going through our last incident? Then he expected me to go out there and ask my dad if he will let my totally irresponsible husband take his expensive truck and oh, buy the way he is also taking the three horses that I have spent literally a fortune in traing over the last 10 years? What? Oh, yeah, Dad I remember that he has had major drinking and driving issues in the not too distant past. What? No. I'm not going. Yeah, I know he doesn't have any experience.

No fucking WAY I was going to do that!!!!

So, we have the conversation. He won't stop and I certainly won't give because there is no way I am going to put those beloved animals in any type of harms way. And I'm certainly NOT going to ask my father something that is COMPLETELY OBVIOUS!!

It ends up with him storming out and going on a drinking binge and doing who knows what.

My point is he should have had the common sense and DECENCY to know that asking to do something like that at that time with his limited experience, ALONE, with his history of drinking problems would be OUT OF THE QUESTION.

But not only did we have the conversation, he escallated it into a full out melt down.

None of it should have ever happened.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 10:53 AM, October 28th (Thursday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
veritas
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Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1. When the NPD’s lashes out *covertly*, what did that look like? Or what can it look like?

NPD's are ALWAYS plotting. ALWAYS. I had a bug on my ex for pretty much 4 years, and there was never a point where what he said to me matched what he said to other people. He would switch up tactics based on his audience, too.


2. Has anyone determined that they were chosen by their NPD because you had characteristics of someone they wanted to be like?

In my case, I was a showpiece. He certainly didn't want to be like me, but I had qualities that would make him look good.

3. Has anyone with children noticed their NPD has a fondness for one child in particular because they either see their own *specialness* in that child or special characteristics that they themselves don’t have?

Most definitely. He took very little interest in our sons, and often says that it's too late to try to make a relationship with them (they're 17 and 15). However, he dotes on our daughter.

4. Talking about adult NPD specifically and not narcissistic tendencies, is there a spectrum of degree in which a person with NPD can be affected by the disorder? Is there a scale of mild to severe for NPD or is the disorder more black and white in terms of it's affect on a person?

Most definitely.

pite the unique characteristics of the NP disorder that often prevents a NPD from receiving help, is help possible?

I really can't put it much better than sadtoo put it. An NPD is a chameleon; they're already used to playing parts. They don't have a core to draw on, so there's nothing in them that can really be fixed. They'll listen to the therapist, and they'll listen to you, and behave like they're being told to behave -- then go on and do exactly what they want. And that's assuming they'll change their behavior at all. A lot of the time, they'll "change" just enough to put you at ease, then start with the gaslighting and blameshifting again. In no time at all, you'll be back on the crazy train.

[This message edited by veritas at 10:32 AM, October 28th (Thursday)]


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
Rise And Shine
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Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm assuming you mean an example, cuz I don't have any pictures of him having his meltsdown.

.... I understand your story about the horses and why it was ridiculous for him to even ask yet argue with you about your decision. Too me, your example is about an argument that was blatantly obvious. What about arguments that are not so blatanly obvious that afterwards you look back and say WTF?? I'm not articulate enough to explain what I'm thinking. Like, is it common for an NPD to start an innocuous conversation with the deliberate intent of sucking you into a battle? Or making you frustrated or angry?

I guess that's what I meant by "covert"...when a NPD lashes out covertly. Example, you're involved in an innocent conversation with NPD about the weather and the next thing you know you're enraged and pulling out your hair while the NPD is as calm as can be. You don't know how you got there. You don't know what happened. You just know that you're crazy! Does that make any sense?

Veritas

An NPD is a chameleon; They'll listen to the therapist, and they'll listen to you, and behave like they're being told to behave -

Does behaving like they're told to behave include verbalizing an understanding of they're behavior? Does the "chameleon" give them the ability to manipulate by expressing an understanding of what they're doing AND express a williness to want to alter their behavior?

A general question about NPD:
Are there other disorders that are close in nature to NPD and if so is a correct NPD diagnosis hard to make?

Thanks again, everyone.

edited to add that I found the answer to my question about disorders that can look like NPD.

[This message edited by Rise And Shine at 11:37 AM, October 28th (Thursday)]


April 25, 2009

Posts: 3263 | Registered: Feb 2010
veritas
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Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does behaving like they're told to behave include verbalizing an understanding of they're behavior? Does the "chameleon" give them the ability to manipulate by expressing an understanding of what they're doing AND express a williness to want to alter their behavior?

Yes, yes, and yes. Because their ultimate goal is to be able to do what they want to do, and if it means that they have to behave a certain way for a little while, they're quite willing to do that. Make no mistake, they know what socially appropriate behavior is, they know what the rules are, they know how society expects other people to act. They just do not believe that the rules should apply to them. They are better, smarter and stronger than everyone they know, so they can tweak the system and so long as they don't get caught, everybody's happy.

Case in point: The man next door to us (pimp, drug dealer), never used to pay his electric bill. He and his girlfriend needed a ride to a hotel because the heat was sweltering, so naturally, since NPD ex used to drive them around everywhere, he took them there that night. The reason he did this was because the girlfriend used to let him take naked pictures of her. They stop somewhere, and the boyfriend gets out. The ex starts chatting her up and tries to get her to flash him right then and there, with her boyfriend standing only a few feet away from the car. I told ex that he had been spotted alone with the girl in the car and they looked very friendly. He got sarcastic and said, "Well, this person must have very good eyesight, to see all of that! It never happened!" Then, because I wasn't backing down, he decided to change tactics. He got a look of shocked horror on his face and said dramatically. "Besides, James is my friend, and he's in love with that girl. How dare you think I would stoop so low? Yes, I think she's cute, but I would never treat a friend that way. They come first."

[This message edited by veritas at 11:48 AM, October 28th (Thursday)]


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
Rise And Shine
♀ Member
Member # 27513
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Make no mistake, they know what socially appropriate behavior is, they know what the rules are, they know how society expects other people to act. They just do not believe that the rules should apply to them. They are better, smarter and stronger than everyone they know, so they can tweak the system and so long as they don't get caught, everybody's happy.

Ok. So is it common for the spouse or significant other of the NPD to not be able to pinpoint what the hell is going on in their relationship for a period of time? Does it cause a significant amount of confusion for them in determing the true source of the communication breakdown?

Can an NPD covertly inflict their chaos at a level that causes the spouse/SO to spend a lot of time wondering if they themselves are the cause of the conflicts prior to understanding that it wasn't them at all??


April 25, 2009

Posts: 3263 | Registered: Feb 2010
lykkeme
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Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What they want more than anything else is to have you believe that you are the problem, and that they are doing everything right. Since they are basically incapable of remorse, really believe they are doing everything they are supposed to in order to make amends.

There were times that my WH could have told me the grass was pink and I would have believed him because he had me running in such constant circles. They are master manipulators, and will do whatever it takes to make their point. They are incapable of seeing that what they say doesn't make any sense, all they can think of is that they need you to believe them.

I think the beauty of it all is that they truly believe what they are saying to be the truth, and can do it with such conviction that even against your best judgement you end up believing it as well, cause they eventually break you down.

Case in point......about a month ago we were talking about the events of an annual party my parents used to have. I made a comment about us having to move the bonfire from the pond area up to the corral because it was too wet to get back and forth. He argued with me for about 10 minutes, and finally said, "I don't remember that, so it never happened". I just changed the subject, cause he has been doing this to me for months.....telling me what I remembered never happened, like I was making this up to hear the sound of my own voice. I actually cinfirmed it with my mom and sister a couple of weeks later when we went out for lunch, cause I was starting to doubt my memories......and I knew I was right. It's their ability to make you doubt yourself.

Lately, I find it easier to just change the subject around to something positive about him, or query something about work. Since they seem to need constant ego-building, that always takes the focus off me and puts it back on him. Right where he likes it. He's never happier than when he's talking about how great he is, what a wonderful boss he is, how amazing his skills are, that he is more knowledgeable than anyone else in his position, etc. etc. etc.

It must be why they have such a low opinion of everyone else. No-one can possibly compare to them.


When it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck & shits like a duck, it's a freaking duck!!

Posts: 881 | Registered: Mar 2004 | From: the other side of hell
veritas
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Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok. So is it common for the spouse or significant other of the NPD to not be able to pinpoint what the hell is going on in their relationship for a period of time? Does it cause a significant amount of confusion for them in determing the true source of the communication breakdown?

Can an NPD covertly inflict their chaos at a level that causes the spouse/SO to spend a lot of time wondering if they themselves are the cause of the conflicts prior to understanding that it wasn't them at all??

The short answer is yes. It's the NPD's mission to keep you as confused as possible. The reason is very simple: no one wants to throw their marriage away on a maybe. So long as they can throw enough mixed signals and subtle putdowns your way, you'll sit there and second-guess your instincts. First they mirror your actions so that you're lulled into thinking, wow, this person and I have so much in common! We share the same values and live in the same world! Then they start distorting the mirror while at the same time making you think you're crazy for noticing the differences. The man I married loved children, had a strong sense of family, and thought that men and women, while not the same, were at least more or less equal. The man I divorced think children cramp his style, never came to my family gatherings and rarely visits his parents, and uses women to stroke his ego.

When or if you leave an NPD, you'll find that you yourself will change. Almost from the minute he left the house after my eyes were opened, I felt freer and lighter. I hadn't realized how many rules we had until after a few weeks of him being gone: I no longer had to cook cream style corn with rice, I could use whatever herbs I wanted, I could wash towels and jeans together -- without there being a screaming meltdown. The world was not going to end, nobody was mortally offended, there would be no comments about how country my people were and how I was raised in a barn, etc. There was nobody around to change the rules arbitrarily and go ballistic that I didn't know them. Other people saw me as strong and independent, but somehow, I did everything he told me to do to keep the peace. It was a revelation.

[This message edited by veritas at 12:50 PM, October 28th (Thursday)]


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
Rise And Shine
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Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've read how a narcissist will use a person as their supply source and discard them when used up.

What happens, if anything, to a NPD if their supply source discards them first? Does a NPD care, notice, react?

Do all NPD's rage or have outbursts that the spouse/SO can see, or, do some NPD's rage only covertly. Like, rarely raising a voice in the home but will have a affair for example as a way to lash out or show their rage?

If NPD is a result of early childhood environment rather than an organic condition, why is it so hard to treat?


April 25, 2009

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honesttoafault
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Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, thank you guys for this discussion. One can read books that describe behavior, but specific examples help so much more!!

And that "gaslighting" example....OMG. WH always would say things like, "Do you really think I would do something like that???" with a look of moral indignation that would make ME feel guilty for thinking that EVEN though I had all the evidence in the world that would point otherwise.

Thank you guys!


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
Rise And Shine
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Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Do you really think I would do something like that???" with a look of moral indignation

I know, right!

It gave me goosebumps reading that.

NPD is the most incredible condition i've ever read about.

It seems like a death sentence! It scares the hell out of me!!


April 25, 2009

Posts: 3263 | Registered: Feb 2010
Rise And Shine
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Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lykkeme

It sounds like you're living with the NPD and coping with it.

Is this true and how are you doing?


April 25, 2009

Posts: 3263 | Registered: Feb 2010
veritas
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Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What happens, if anything, to a NPD if their supply source discards them first? Does a NPD care, notice, react?

The reaction is usually one of violent rage. Everyone will know all of his secrets. Everyone will know he's not perfect. That's a HUGE threat to the narcissist.

Do all NPD's rage or have outbursts that the spouse/SO can see, or, do some NPD's rage only covertly. Like, rarely raising a voice in the home but will have a affair for example as a way to lash out or show their rage?

An inverted narcissist might, but inverted narcissists usually live with a primary narcissist. They feed off of each other's neuroses. Other than being a doormat, a narcissist with an inverted narcissist is really the only "successful" relationship a narcissist can have. And for most people, an affair is a passive-aggressive act of rage.

If NPD is a result of early childhood environment rather than an organic condition, why is it so hard to treat?

Because the personality becomes irretrievably broken. These people have no emotional nerve endings. The synapses that make us feel bad when we've done something wrong simply don't exist on Planet NPD; most of what an NPD feels is rage.

[This message edited by veritas at 2:58 PM, October 28th (Thursday)]


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
sadtoo
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Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, October 28th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok. So is it common for the spouse or significant other of the NPD to not be able to pinpoint what the hell is going on in their relationship for a period of time?

TOTALLY common. I was confused almost the entire time we were married. In the beginning I thought I had married the man of my dreams. And then like V said, the rest of the time I was questioning my own sanity. I didn't know who or what to believe. He was doing one thing and saying another. Take the horse incident. I KNEW it was crazy, but by the time the meltdown had gone on for two days, I was just about convinced that I was the bad guy and needed to give in and let him go....because I was the one who was being unreasonable. In the end, I didn't even know which way was up or down. I ended up seeing a shrink for two years to get my head screwed back on straight and on every AD known to modern medicine. They are PROS at keeping you off balance, totally confused, uninformed, and in the dark.

Does it cause a significant amount of confusion for them in determing the true source of the communication breakdown?

I would say NO. They KNOW what's causing the true sourse of the communication breakdown. It's THEM.

Can an NPD covertly inflict their chaos at a level that causes the spouse/SO to spend a lot of time wondering if they themselves are the cause of the conflicts prior to understanding that it wasn't them at all??

...um yeah. Almost to the point that you end up in the nut-ward. Or do end up there.

What happens, if anything, to a NPD if their supply source discards them first? Does a NPD care, notice, react?

If you're lucky, they just slither away and you will never hear from them again. But most will not tolerate being discarded. THEY are the ones who will determine when and how the relationship will end. You will be at risk of stalking and harassment. This could go on for YEARS and YEARS and require law enforcement intervention to get it to stop.

Do all NPD's rage or have outbursts that the spouse/SO can see, or, do some NPD's rage only covertly. Like, rarely raising a voice in the home but will have a affair for example as a way to lash out or show their rage?

Not all rage like an out of control lunatic. Some are quiet ragers and act out in other ways.

If NPD is a result of early childhood environment rather than an organic condition, why is it so hard to treat?

Because it is so deeply ingrained. Also, the NPD's ego is so that they don't think there is anything wrong with them. There is NO WAY that they are going to seek help for something that isn't wrong to begin with. Notice how the NPD reacts to even the slightest critcal comment. Do you seriously think that they are going to be receptive to them having a serious personality disorder and agree to life long threatment and therapy. When they can't even handle constructive criticism.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
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